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OH NO

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[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=23939.msg579781#msg579781 date=1211789020]
She does fucking not mean it!
Shes only saying it as a way of avoiding '1 man team' jibes.
Least i fuckin hope so, or she is the worst type of fan. One who has no affinity with the club or players who is only interested in trophy hauls.
Any fan who would put a price on a player who is integral to their being is a fucking moron, and has no understanding of the history, tradition or soul of a club.
Roscos response is the correct one.
'we'll think about it at a billion'
*shakes head*
[/quote]

Don't be so melodramatic!
What exactly is football about to you? Why does every here want to keep hold of Torres so badly? Is it not to so he can help Liverpool win trophies?

All I'm was saying is that despite everyone's outrage every single player has their price. Ronaldo, Kaka, Messi or yes even Torres have a price that their clubs would sell at, despite what they say in public.

As much as we all hate it football is now big business and there is fuck all any of us can do about it!
At the end of the day the whole game is about making money. £50m is more profit that Liverpool will make in the next 3 or 4 years I just don't see many clubs rejecting bids in that region.
 
[quote author=RaceTo19 link=topic=23939.msg580120#msg580120 date=1211828363]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=23939.msg579781#msg579781 date=1211789020]
She does fucking not mean it!
Shes only saying it as a way of avoiding '1 man team' jibes.
Least i fuckin hope so, or she is the worst type of fan. One who has no affinity with the club or players who is only interested in trophy hauls.
Any fan who would put a price on a player who is integral to their being is a fucking moron, and has no understanding of the history, tradition or soul of a club.
Roscos response is the correct one.
'we'll think about it at a billion'
*shakes head*
[/quote]

Don't be so melodramatic!
What exactly is football about to you? Why does every here want to keep hold of Torres so badly? Is it not to so he can help Liverpool win trophies?

All I'm was saying is that despite everyone's outrage every single player has their price. Ronaldo, Kaka, Messi or yes even Torres have a price that their clubs would sell at, despite what they say in public.

As much as we all hate it football is now big business and there is fuck all any of us can do about it!
At the end of the day the whole game is about making money. £50m is more profit that Liverpool will make in the next 3 or 4 years I just don't see many clubs rejecting bids in that region.


[/quote]

Of course every club has the profit motive for selling, especially at an inflated price.

However I do think there is a difference between selling a star player to, say, a continental club (e.g Ronaldo to RM) as opposed to selling your star player to a direct rival (e.g Torres to Chelsea).

Your own club and Manager know this well, it's what they did when Liverpool showed interest in Heinze.
 
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=23939.msg580125#msg580125 date=1211828827]
[quote author=RaceTo19 link=topic=23939.msg580120#msg580120 date=1211828363]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=23939.msg579781#msg579781 date=1211789020]
She does fucking not mean it!
Shes only saying it as a way of avoiding '1 man team' jibes.
Least i fuckin hope so, or she is the worst type of fan. One who has no affinity with the club or players who is only interested in trophy hauls.
Any fan who would put a price on a player who is integral to their being is a fucking moron, and has no understanding of the history, tradition or soul of a club.
Roscos response is the correct one.
'we'll think about it at a billion'
*shakes head*
[/quote]

Don't be so melodramatic!
What exactly is football about to you? Why does every here want to keep hold of Torres so badly? Is it not to so he can help Liverpool win trophies?

All I'm was saying is that despite everyone's outrage every single player has their price. Ronaldo, Kaka, Messi or yes even Torres have a price that their clubs would sell at, despite what they say in public.

As much as we all hate it football is now big business and there is fuck all any of us can do about it!
At the end of the day the whole game is about making money. £50m is more profit that Liverpool will make in the next 3 or 4 years I just don't see many clubs rejecting bids in that region.


[/quote]

Of course every club has the profit motive for selling, especially at an inflated price.

However I do think there is a difference between selling a star player to, say, a continental club (e.g Ronaldo to RM) as opposed to selling your star player to a direct rival (e.g Torres to Chelsea).

Your own club and Manager know this well, it's what they did when Liverpool showed interest in Heinze.
[/quote]

Very true re:Heinze
But if you had offered us £10m-£15m would we have rejected it? I doubt it

It might make the price higher but there is always a price
 
[quote author=RaceTo19 link=topic=23939.msg580120#msg580120 date=1211828363]

What exactly is football about to you?
[/quote]

A lot of things, not simply winning trophies, if it were simply winning we'd all switch allegiances when we needed to, wouldnt we?

[quote author=RaceTo19 link=topic=23939.msg580120#msg580120 date=1211828363]
Is it not to so he can help Liverpool win trophies?
[/quote]

Not only that, no, & that's an honest answer.

[quote author=RaceTo19 link=topic=23939.msg580120#msg580120 date=1211828363]
As much as we all hate it football is now big business and there is fuck all any of us can do about it!

At the end of the day the whole game is about making money.
[/quote]

It's big business yes, but the whole game isnt about that, there's much more to it, that's why I wouldnt be able to realistically feel the same about Liverpool were they to simply cash in on a talent like that how clearly means so much to the entire fanbase, nevermind the club & it's ambition.
 
[quote author=RaceTo19 link=topic=23939.msg580120#msg580120 date=1211828363]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=23939.msg579781#msg579781 date=1211789020]
She does fucking not mean it!
Shes only saying it as a way of avoiding '1 man team' jibes.
Least i fuckin hope so, or she is the worst type of fan. One who has no affinity with the club or players who is only interested in trophy hauls.
Any fan who would put a price on a player who is integral to their being is a fucking moron, and has no understanding of the history, tradition or soul of a club.
Roscos response is the correct one.
'we'll think about it at a billion'
*shakes head*
[/quote]

Don't be so melodramatic!
What exactly is football about to you? Why does every here want to keep hold of Torres so badly? Is it not to so he can help Liverpool win trophies?

All I'm was saying is that despite everyone's outrage every single player has their price. Ronaldo, Kaka, Messi or yes even Torres have a price that their clubs would sell at, despite what they say in public.

As much as we all hate it football is now big business and there is fuck all any of us can do about it!
At the end of the day the whole game is about making money. £50m is more profit that Liverpool will make in the next 3 or 4 years I just don't see many clubs rejecting bids in that region.


[/quote]

I dont think i have ever felt as upset as i do about this post Race.
It is the embodiment of all that is wrong with the game of football.
It doesnt suprise me that a Manchester United fan (the self proclaimed worlds biggest club) sees only measurements garnered through wealth and possession.
The fact that you 'a fan' would endeavor to perpetuate this ridiculous argument saddens me.

YES the clubs are run as a business, but what part of that onvolves you 'the fan'?
Some rich people with an idea and a sense of greed have taken control of our game and are using it to make money, but that doesnt for one second mean that i (or you) have to buy into that. The soul of your club is not measured in spreadsheets. Its history isnt about which year it became the richest club.

Nothing NOTHING would make me accept my club being seen solely as a business, and i think it is desperately sad that you or any football fan would.
You are right with your 'like it or not they are businesses' line, but what difference does or should that make to me? I am a fan, not a shareholder. I am passionate about my clubs results and her identity, not her bottom line.

The fact that you could accept that suprises me, the fact that you would see a player as an asset and not a representative of something you love. Not as an idol, an icon, a hero is very very sad.
That you have no affinity to your players and dont mind them coming or going as long as you get the correct amount underwritten to your chairmans investment arm is to me genuinely shocking.

Manchester United deserve your loyalty not your tinpot accountancy skills.

My club will never mean anything as crass as a bottome fucking line to me. Fernando Torres is not being used here to demonstrate a player or a token that can or cannot be bartered with, of course decisions can be made that would be out of our control. But what he represents in this particular argument is the spirit and history and importance of our club. If it was any player the feeling would be the same. If he is a playing asset to our club, then he should never be viewed in any other way.

Like it or not - you say

I do not.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=23939.msg580191#msg580191 date=1211837830]
[quote author=RaceTo19 link=topic=23939.msg580120#msg580120 date=1211828363]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=23939.msg579781#msg579781 date=1211789020]
She does fucking not mean it!
Shes only saying it as a way of avoiding '1 man team' jibes.
Least i fuckin hope so, or she is the worst type of fan. One who has no affinity with the club or players who is only interested in trophy hauls.
Any fan who would put a price on a player who is integral to their being is a fucking moron, and has no understanding of the history, tradition or soul of a club.
Roscos response is the correct one.
'we'll think about it at a billion'
*shakes head*
[/quote]

Don't be so melodramatic!
What exactly is football about to you? Why does every here want to keep hold of Torres so badly? Is it not to so he can help Liverpool win trophies?

All I'm was saying is that despite everyone's outrage every single player has their price. Ronaldo, Kaka, Messi or yes even Torres have a price that their clubs would sell at, despite what they say in public.

As much as we all hate it football is now big business and there is fuck all any of us can do about it!
At the end of the day the whole game is about making money. £50m is more profit that Liverpool will make in the next 3 or 4 years I just don't see many clubs rejecting bids in that region.


[/quote]

I dont think i have ever felt as upset as i do about this post Race.
It is the embodiment of all that is wrong with the game of football.
It doesnt suprise me that a Manchester United fan (the self proclaimed worlds biggest club) sees only measurements garnered through wealth and possession.
The fact that you 'a fan' would endeavor to perpetuate this ridiculous argument saddens me.

YES the clubs are run as a business, but what part of that onvolves you 'the fan'?
Some rich people with an idea and a sense of greed have taken control of our game and are using it to make money, but that doesnt for one second mean that i (or you) have to buy into that. The soul of your club is not measured in spreadsheets. Its history isnt about which year it became the richest club.

Nothing NOTHING would make me accept my club being seen solely as a business, and i think it is desperately sad that you or any football fan would.
You are right with your 'like it or not they are businesses' line, but what difference does or should that make to me? I am a fan, not a shareholder. I am passionate about my clubs results and her identity, not her bottom line.

The fact that you could accept that suprises me, the fact that you would see a player as an asset and not a representative of something you love. Not as an idol, an icon, a hero is very very sad.
That you have no affinity to your players and dont mind them coming or going as long as you get the correct amount underwritten to your chairmans investment arm is to me genuinely shocking.

Manchester United deserve your loyalty not your tinpot accountancy skills.

My club will never mean anything as crass as a bottome fucking line to me. Fernando Torres is not being used here to demonstrate a player or a token that can or cannot be bartered with, of course decisions can be made that would be out of our control. But what he represents in this particular argument is the spirit and history and importance of our club. If it was any player the feeling would be the same. If he is a playing asset to our club, then he should never be viewed in any other way.

Like it or not - you say

I do not.
[/quote]

Here here.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=23939.msg580191#msg580191 date=1211837830]
I dont think i have ever felt as upset as i do about this post Race.
It is the embodiment of all that is wrong with the game of football.
It doesnt suprise me that a Manchester United fan (the self proclaimed worlds biggest club) sees only measurements garnered through wealth and possession.
The fact that you 'a fan' would endeavor to perpetuate this ridiculous argument saddens me.

YES the clubs are run as a business, but what part of that onvolves you 'the fan'?
Some rich people with an idea and a sense of greed have taken control of our game and are using it to make money, but that doesnt for one second mean that i (or you) have to buy into that. The soul of your club is not measured in spreadsheets. Its history isnt about which year it became the richest club.

Nothing NOTHING would make me accept my club being seen solely as a business, and i think it is desperately sad that you or any football fan would.
You are right with your 'like it or not they are businesses' line, but what difference does or should that make to me? I am a fan, not a shareholder. I am passionate about my clubs results and her identity, not her bottom line.

The fact that you could accept that suprises me, the fact that you would see a player as an asset and not a representative of something you love. Not as an idol, an icon, a hero is very very sad.
That you have no affinity to your players and dont mind them coming or going as long as you get the correct amount underwritten to your chairmans investment arm is to me genuinely shocking.

Manchester United deserve your loyalty not your tinpot accountancy skills.

My club will never mean anything as crass as a bottome fucking line to me. Fernando Torres is not being used here to demonstrate a player or a token that can or cannot be bartered with, of course decisions can be made that would be out of our control. But what he represents in this particular argument is the spirit and history and importance of our club. If it was any player the feeling would be the same. If he is a playing asset to our club, then he should never be viewed in any other way.

Like it or not - you say

I do not.
[/quote]

*applauds*

That's what I wanted to say, but was incapable of saying.

Excellent post.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=23939.msg580191#msg580191 date=1211837830]
[quote author=RaceTo19 link=topic=23939.msg580120#msg580120 date=1211828363]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=23939.msg579781#msg579781 date=1211789020]
She does fucking not mean it!
Shes only saying it as a way of avoiding '1 man team' jibes.
Least i fuckin hope so, or she is the worst type of fan. One who has no affinity with the club or players who is only interested in trophy hauls.
Any fan who would put a price on a player who is integral to their being is a fucking moron, and has no understanding of the history, tradition or soul of a club.
Roscos response is the correct one.
'we'll think about it at a billion'
*shakes head*
[/quote]

Don't be so melodramatic!
What exactly is football about to you? Why does every here want to keep hold of Torres so badly? Is it not to so he can help Liverpool win trophies?

All I'm was saying is that despite everyone's outrage every single player has their price. Ronaldo, Kaka, Messi or yes even Torres have a price that their clubs would sell at, despite what they say in public.

As much as we all hate it football is now big business and there is fuck all any of us can do about it!
At the end of the day the whole game is about making money. £50m is more profit that Liverpool will make in the next 3 or 4 years I just don't see many clubs rejecting bids in that region.


[/quote]

I dont think i have ever felt as upset as i do about this post Race.
It is the embodiment of all that is wrong with the game of football.
It doesnt suprise me that a Manchester United fan (the self proclaimed worlds biggest club) sees only measurements garnered through wealth and possession.
The fact that you 'a fan' would endeavor to perpetuate this ridiculous argument saddens me.

YES the clubs are run as a business, but what part of that onvolves you 'the fan'?
Some rich people with an idea and a sense of greed have taken control of our game and are using it to make money, but that doesnt for one second mean that i (or you) have to buy into that. The soul of your club is not measured in spreadsheets. Its history isnt about which year it became the richest club.

Nothing NOTHING would make me accept my club being seen solely as a business, and i think it is desperately sad that you or any football fan would.
You are right with your 'like it or not they are businesses' line, but what difference does or should that make to me? I am a fan, not a shareholder. I am passionate about my clubs results and her identity, not her bottom line.

The fact that you could accept that suprises me, the fact that you would see a player as an asset and not a representative of something you love. Not as an idol, an icon, a hero is very very sad.
That you have no affinity to your players and dont mind them coming or going as long as you get the correct amount underwritten to your chairmans investment arm is to me genuinely shocking.

Manchester United deserve your loyalty not your tinpot accountancy skills.

My club will never mean anything as crass as a bottome fucking line to me. Fernando Torres is not being used here to demonstrate a player or a token that can or cannot be bartered with, of course decisions can be made that would be out of our control. But what he represents in this particular argument is the spirit and history and importance of our club. If it was any player the feeling would be the same. If he is a playing asset to our club, then he should never be viewed in any other way.

Like it or not - you say

I do not.
[/quote]

Oncy, I agree with your sentiments on the ownership of football clubs completely.

Manchester United is more than "a company" to me, it is a massive part of my LIFE, but the sad reality is to the people that own it is nothing more than a company.

Players are assets to them. They have a value to them measured completely in $$$$.
All I was saying was that anyone who believes that the "owners" wouldn't accept a £50m, £75m or £100m are wrong. Because they may just grap it with both hands.

The tradition, heritage of the club and pride I have in being a Manc isn't affected by our transfer dealings, never will be.
 
[quote author=RaceTo19 link=topic=23939.msg580204#msg580204 date=1211838853]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=23939.msg580191#msg580191 date=1211837830]
[quote author=RaceTo19 link=topic=23939.msg580120#msg580120 date=1211828363]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=23939.msg579781#msg579781 date=1211789020]
She does fucking not mean it!
Shes only saying it as a way of avoiding '1 man team' jibes.
Least i fuckin hope so, or she is the worst type of fan. One who has no affinity with the club or players who is only interested in trophy hauls.
Any fan who would put a price on a player who is integral to their being is a fucking moron, and has no understanding of the history, tradition or soul of a club.
Roscos response is the correct one.
'we'll think about it at a billion'
*shakes head*
[/quote]

Don't be so melodramatic!
What exactly is football about to you? Why does every here want to keep hold of Torres so badly? Is it not to so he can help Liverpool win trophies?

All I'm was saying is that despite everyone's outrage every single player has their price. Ronaldo, Kaka, Messi or yes even Torres have a price that their clubs would sell at, despite what they say in public.

As much as we all hate it football is now big business and there is fuck all any of us can do about it!
At the end of the day the whole game is about making money. £50m is more profit that Liverpool will make in the next 3 or 4 years I just don't see many clubs rejecting bids in that region.


[/quote]

I dont think i have ever felt as upset as i do about this post Race.
It is the embodiment of all that is wrong with the game of football.
It doesnt suprise me that a Manchester United fan (the self proclaimed worlds biggest club) sees only measurements garnered through wealth and possession.
The fact that you 'a fan' would endeavor to perpetuate this ridiculous argument saddens me.

YES the clubs are run as a business, but what part of that onvolves you 'the fan'?
Some rich people with an idea and a sense of greed have taken control of our game and are using it to make money, but that doesnt for one second mean that i (or you) have to buy into that. The soul of your club is not measured in spreadsheets. Its history isnt about which year it became the richest club.

Nothing NOTHING would make me accept my club being seen solely as a business, and i think it is desperately sad that you or any football fan would.
You are right with your 'like it or not they are businesses' line, but what difference does or should that make to me? I am a fan, not a shareholder. I am passionate about my clubs results and her identity, not her bottom line.

The fact that you could accept that suprises me, the fact that you would see a player as an asset and not a representative of something you love. Not as an idol, an icon, a hero is very very sad.
That you have no affinity to your players and dont mind them coming or going as long as you get the correct amount underwritten to your chairmans investment arm is to me genuinely shocking.

Manchester United deserve your loyalty not your tinpot accountancy skills.

My club will never mean anything as crass as a bottome fucking line to me. Fernando Torres is not being used here to demonstrate a player or a token that can or cannot be bartered with, of course decisions can be made that would be out of our control. But what he represents in this particular argument is the spirit and history and importance of our club. If it was any player the feeling would be the same. If he is a playing asset to our club, then he should never be viewed in any other way.

Like it or not - you say

I do not.
[/quote]

Oncy, I agree with your sentiments on the ownership of football clubs completely.

Manchester United is more than "a company" to me, it is a massive part of my LIFE, but the sad reality is to the people that own it is nothing more than a company.

Players are assets to them. They have a value to them measured completely in $$$$.
All I was saying was that anyone who believes that the "owners" wouldn't accept a £50m, £75m or £100m are wrong. Because they may just grap it with both hands.

The tradition, heritage of the club and pride I have in being a Manc isn't affected by our transfer dealings, never will be.
[/quote]

Of course they may grasp it Race. Of course to them its a company, but that doesnt mean you readily have to accept it. You the fan have no financial interests in Manchester United. Your interests are totally emotional right? So to say you would accept it because you dont have a choice as it isnt up to you and those it is up to would accept it, is tantamount to saying you would give up your emotional attachment to the club and become purely accepting of whatever the owners would lay down in front of you as what they deemed 'in the best interests of the club'.

As i said in my first post, i dont believe (if push came to shove) that you would accept it, and i think alot of your bravado about the chance of Ronaldo leaving is to do with you wanting to say your club is bigger than him and you dont need him. OF COURSE IT IS, OF COURSE YOU DONT. But you should WANT him with all your heart, and not be so willing to accept the decision the Glazers may or may not make.

I dont mean to have a go, but you are either putting on a cold emotionless (Manchester money machine) front, or you are a shit fan. I know thats a shit thing to say, but if you would swallow a corporate decision for your club then thats what i believe.

I say again, if Fernando Torres is sold to Chelsea because they offer a shit load of cash, i will no longer consider myself a fan of the thing that Liverpool football club will have become.
 
You sound like my dad Oncey.

He's well and truely fallen out of love with the beautiful sport.
 
There have been points during this year that I have felt like this.

It's all about money and I'm not buying into it.

I don't owned any Liverpool items and have never been to Anfield, does that make me a fake fan? Or am I acceptable as a fan by my interest in the team, not my financial interest in the team?

Anyway, If Torres goes, and I'm sure that won't happen, I don't think I could go on as a Liverpool supporter. It would be time to support my local team (Cliftonville) with both my mind and pocket.
 
Nice to see some proper debating going on in here.

You are both right.

To break it down, the owners will always see CL qualification as more important than the EPL title. This is why the top 4 have become the top four. CL money.

Look at it another way, what would happen to the finances of 3 of the top 4 if they failed to make the CL one or two years on the bounce. Complete fuckin meltdown, that's what. Utd got to the last 4 (or was it 8?) last year and still posted only enough profit to pay half of the interest needed to keep the Glazers loans paid up. The rest was added to the club. This is what Hicks has in mind, but as our matchday revenue is way behind the Mancs we will be even further in the shit.

Oncy I'm with you. Torres out, everybody out. I may even consider socialism.
 
[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=23939.msg580220#msg580220 date=1211839841]
You sound like my dad Oncey.

He's well and truely fallen out of love with the beautiful sport.
[/quote]

Many older fans have.

My interest is waning, or at least changing dramatically.

I fell in love with walking to watch the match with my mates, reading the echo news about players on the way, listening to a handheld radio for team news whilst queuing up to get into the Kop, costing less than my pocket money to get in. Listening to the away match on the radio & staying up to watch MOTD.

I didnt fall in love with SSN, constant media coverage, every match we ever play available to watch, foreign owners, diving players, crowds that dont sing, & corporate tickets being the norm.

The game I loved is dead, the club I love is a completely different thing in almost every way, but the day we sell an icon, an image, a symbol of something finally being how we want it to be after years of pain at our great club , simply for financial gain, is the day our club truly dies, & my support along with it.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=23939.msg580212#msg580212 date=1211839549]
[quote author=RaceTo19 link=topic=23939.msg580204#msg580204 date=1211838853]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=23939.msg580191#msg580191 date=1211837830]
[quote author=RaceTo19 link=topic=23939.msg580120#msg580120 date=1211828363]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=23939.msg579781#msg579781 date=1211789020]
She does fucking not mean it!
Shes only saying it as a way of avoiding '1 man team' jibes.
Least i fuckin hope so, or she is the worst type of fan. One who has no affinity with the club or players who is only interested in trophy hauls.
Any fan who would put a price on a player who is integral to their being is a fucking moron, and has no understanding of the history, tradition or soul of a club.
Roscos response is the correct one.
'we'll think about it at a billion'
*shakes head*
[/quote]

Don't be so melodramatic!
What exactly is football about to you? Why does every here want to keep hold of Torres so badly? Is it not to so he can help Liverpool win trophies?

All I'm was saying is that despite everyone's outrage every single player has their price. Ronaldo, Kaka, Messi or yes even Torres have a price that their clubs would sell at, despite what they say in public.

As much as we all hate it football is now big business and there is fuck all any of us can do about it!
At the end of the day the whole game is about making money. £50m is more profit that Liverpool will make in the next 3 or 4 years I just don't see many clubs rejecting bids in that region.


[/quote]

I dont think i have ever felt as upset as i do about this post Race.
It is the embodiment of all that is wrong with the game of football.
It doesnt suprise me that a Manchester United fan (the self proclaimed worlds biggest club) sees only measurements garnered through wealth and possession.
The fact that you 'a fan' would endeavor to perpetuate this ridiculous argument saddens me.

YES the clubs are run as a business, but what part of that onvolves you 'the fan'?
Some rich people with an idea and a sense of greed have taken control of our game and are using it to make money, but that doesnt for one second mean that i (or you) have to buy into that. The soul of your club is not measured in spreadsheets. Its history isnt about which year it became the richest club.

Nothing NOTHING would make me accept my club being seen solely as a business, and i think it is desperately sad that you or any football fan would.
You are right with your 'like it or not they are businesses' line, but what difference does or should that make to me? I am a fan, not a shareholder. I am passionate about my clubs results and her identity, not her bottom line.

The fact that you could accept that suprises me, the fact that you would see a player as an asset and not a representative of something you love. Not as an idol, an icon, a hero is very very sad.
That you have no affinity to your players and dont mind them coming or going as long as you get the correct amount underwritten to your chairmans investment arm is to me genuinely shocking.

Manchester United deserve your loyalty not your tinpot accountancy skills.

My club will never mean anything as crass as a bottome fucking line to me. Fernando Torres is not being used here to demonstrate a player or a token that can or cannot be bartered with, of course decisions can be made that would be out of our control. But what he represents in this particular argument is the spirit and history and importance of our club. If it was any player the feeling would be the same. If he is a playing asset to our club, then he should never be viewed in any other way.

Like it or not - you say

I do not.
[/quote]

Oncy, I agree with your sentiments on the ownership of football clubs completely.

Manchester United is more than "a company" to me, it is a massive part of my LIFE, but the sad reality is to the people that own it is nothing more than a company.

Players are assets to them. They have a value to them measured completely in $$$$.
All I was saying was that anyone who believes that the "owners" wouldn't accept a £50m, £75m or £100m are wrong. Because they may just grap it with both hands.

The tradition, heritage of the club and pride I have in being a Manc isn't affected by our transfer dealings, never will be.
[/quote]

Of course they may grasp it Race. Of course to them its a company, but that doesnt mean you readily have to accept it. You the fan have no financial interests in Manchester United. Your interests are totally emotional right? So to say you would accept it because you dont have a choice as it isnt up to you and those it is up to would accept it, is tantamount to saying you would give up your emotional attachment to the club and become purely accepting of whatever the owners would lay down in front of you as what they deemed 'in the best interests of the club'.

As i said in my first post, i dont believe (if push came to shove) that you would accept it, and i think alot of your bravado about the chance of Ronaldo leaving is to do with you wanting to say your club is bigger than him and you dont need him. OF COURSE IT IS, OF COURSE YOU DONT. But you should WANT him with all your heart, and not be so willing to accept the decision the Glazers may or may not make.

I dont mean to have a go, but you are either putting on a cold emotionless (Manchester money machine) front, or you are a shit fan. I know thats a shit thing to say, but if you would swallow a corporate decision for your club then thats what i believe.

I say again, if Fernando Torres is sold to Chelsea because they offer a shit load of cash, i will no longer consider myself a fan of the thing that Liverpool football club will have become.
[/quote]

Hang on her a second Oncy before you go calling someone else a "shit fan"!! >🙁
A look in the mirror may be in order!
Because I don't care what owner happens to be in charge at the time no decision they could ever make would make me stop supporting United.
I love and will continue live trough every up and down Manchester United have for the rest of my life, regardless of what happens on or off the field.

But I am also a realist and I have accepted that the world I have gown up in has changed and no amount of huffing and puffing on my behalf is going to change that.
Football is a big business and will be a business from now on. You can't change it so you have to accept IMO otherwise you are just going to end up old and twisted because the world has changed and you couldn't keep up.

The only football I have to love is the football that is here now.
 
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=23939.msg580232#msg580232 date=1211840882]
[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=23939.msg580220#msg580220 date=1211839841]
You sound like my dad Oncey.

He's well and truely fallen out of love with the beautiful sport.
[/quote]

Many older fans have.

My interest is waning, or at least changing dramatically.

I fell in love with walking to watch the match with my mates, reading the echo news about players on the way, listening to a handheld radio for team news whilst queuing up to get into the Kop, costing less than my pocket money to get in. Listening to the away match on the radio & staying up to watch MOTD.

I didnt fall in love with SSN, constant media coverage, every match we ever play available to watch, foreign owners, diving players, crowds that dont sing, & corporate tickets being the norm.

The game I loved is dead, the club I love is a completely different thing in almost every way, but the day we sell an icon, an image, a symbol of something finally being how we want it to be after years of pain at our great club , simply for financial gain, is the day our club truly dies, & my support along with it.
[/quote]

Fair play. My dad is the most knowledgeable footy fan i know and he's played enough of the stuff, it's been a massive part of his life and my life and now it's gone it's proper sad and it's clear to see why its died and to be honest the more I hear about foreigners buying clubs and massive transfer fee's the little bit of my enthusiasm for the sport dies. Well atleast at club level, atleast at International level I like to think that it's finances aside and purely playing for the pride of representing your nation and funnily enough, the majority of time I watch the footy with my Dad now is with internationals.
 
[quote author=RaceTo19 link=topic=23939.msg580234#msg580234 date=1211840901]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=23939.msg580212#msg580212 date=1211839549]
[quote author=RaceTo19 link=topic=23939.msg580204#msg580204 date=1211838853]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=23939.msg580191#msg580191 date=1211837830]
[quote author=RaceTo19 link=topic=23939.msg580120#msg580120 date=1211828363]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=23939.msg579781#msg579781 date=1211789020]
She does fucking not mean it!
Shes only saying it as a way of avoiding '1 man team' jibes.
Least i fuckin hope so, or she is the worst type of fan. One who has no affinity with the club or players who is only interested in trophy hauls.
Any fan who would put a price on a player who is integral to their being is a fucking moron, and has no understanding of the history, tradition or soul of a club.
Roscos response is the correct one.
'we'll think about it at a billion'
*shakes head*
[/quote]

Don't be so melodramatic!
What exactly is football about to you? Why does every here want to keep hold of Torres so badly? Is it not to so he can help Liverpool win trophies?

All I'm was saying is that despite everyone's outrage every single player has their price. Ronaldo, Kaka, Messi or yes even Torres have a price that their clubs would sell at, despite what they say in public.

As much as we all hate it football is now big business and there is fuck all any of us can do about it!
At the end of the day the whole game is about making money. £50m is more profit that Liverpool will make in the next 3 or 4 years I just don't see many clubs rejecting bids in that region.


[/quote]

I dont think i have ever felt as upset as i do about this post Race.
It is the embodiment of all that is wrong with the game of football.
It doesnt suprise me that a Manchester United fan (the self proclaimed worlds biggest club) sees only measurements garnered through wealth and possession.
The fact that you 'a fan' would endeavor to perpetuate this ridiculous argument saddens me.

YES the clubs are run as a business, but what part of that onvolves you 'the fan'?
Some rich people with an idea and a sense of greed have taken control of our game and are using it to make money, but that doesnt for one second mean that i (or you) have to buy into that. The soul of your club is not measured in spreadsheets. Its history isnt about which year it became the richest club.

Nothing NOTHING would make me accept my club being seen solely as a business, and i think it is desperately sad that you or any football fan would.
You are right with your 'like it or not they are businesses' line, but what difference does or should that make to me? I am a fan, not a shareholder. I am passionate about my clubs results and her identity, not her bottom line.

The fact that you could accept that suprises me, the fact that you would see a player as an asset and not a representative of something you love. Not as an idol, an icon, a hero is very very sad.
That you have no affinity to your players and dont mind them coming or going as long as you get the correct amount underwritten to your chairmans investment arm is to me genuinely shocking.

Manchester United deserve your loyalty not your tinpot accountancy skills.

My club will never mean anything as crass as a bottome fucking line to me. Fernando Torres is not being used here to demonstrate a player or a token that can or cannot be bartered with, of course decisions can be made that would be out of our control. But what he represents in this particular argument is the spirit and history and importance of our club. If it was any player the feeling would be the same. If he is a playing asset to our club, then he should never be viewed in any other way.

Like it or not - you say

I do not.
[/quote]

Oncy, I agree with your sentiments on the ownership of football clubs completely.

Manchester United is more than "a company" to me, it is a massive part of my LIFE, but the sad reality is to the people that own it is nothing more than a company.

Players are assets to them. They have a value to them measured completely in $$$$.
All I was saying was that anyone who believes that the "owners" wouldn't accept a £50m, £75m or £100m are wrong. Because they may just grap it with both hands.

The tradition, heritage of the club and pride I have in being a Manc isn't affected by our transfer dealings, never will be.
[/quote]

Of course they may grasp it Race. Of course to them its a company, but that doesnt mean you readily have to accept it. You the fan have no financial interests in Manchester United. Your interests are totally emotional right? So to say you would accept it because you dont have a choice as it isnt up to you and those it is up to would accept it, is tantamount to saying you would give up your emotional attachment to the club and become purely accepting of whatever the owners would lay down in front of you as what they deemed 'in the best interests of the club'.

As i said in my first post, i dont believe (if push came to shove) that you would accept it, and i think alot of your bravado about the chance of Ronaldo leaving is to do with you wanting to say your club is bigger than him and you dont need him. OF COURSE IT IS, OF COURSE YOU DONT. But you should WANT him with all your heart, and not be so willing to accept the decision the Glazers may or may not make.

I dont mean to have a go, but you are either putting on a cold emotionless (Manchester money machine) front, or you are a shit fan. I know thats a shit thing to say, but if you would swallow a corporate decision for your club then thats what i believe.

I say again, if Fernando Torres is sold to Chelsea because they offer a shit load of cash, i will no longer consider myself a fan of the thing that Liverpool football club will have become.
[/quote]

Hang on her a second Oncy before you go calling someone else a "shit fan"!! >🙁
A look in the mirror may be in order!
Because I don't care what owner happens to be in charge at the time no decision they could ever make would make me stop supporting United.
I love and will continue live trough every up and down Manchester United have for the rest of my life, regardless of what happens on or off the field.

But I am also a realist and I have accepted that the world I have gown up in has changed and no amount of huffing and puffing on my behalf is going to change that.
Football is a big business and will be a business from now on. You can't change it so you have to accept IMO otherwise you are just going to end up old and twisted because the world has changed and you couldn't keep up.

The only football I have to love is the football that is here now.

[/quote]

I didnt call you a shit fan. I gave you two options, you called yourself a shit fan.
 
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=23939.msg580232#msg580232 date=1211840882]
[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=23939.msg580220#msg580220 date=1211839841]
You sound like my dad Oncey.

He's well and truely fallen out of love with the beautiful sport.
[/quote]

Many older fans have.

My interest is waning, or at least changing dramatically.

I fell in love with walking to watch the match with my mates, reading the echo news about players on the way, listening to a handheld radio for team news whilst queuing up to get into the Kop, costing less than my pocket money to get in. Listening to the away match on the radio & staying up to watch MOTD.

I didnt fall in love with SSN, constant media coverage, every match we ever play available to watch, foreign owners, diving players, crowds that dont sing, & corporate tickets being the norm.

The game I loved is dead, the club I love is a completely different thing in almost every way, but the day we sell an icon, an image, a symbol of something finally being how we want it to be after years of pain at our great club , simply for financial gain, is the day our club truly dies, & my support along with it.
[/quote]

That post, however accurate, saddens me. I have never been able to do any of that. 'kin 'ell. I am very pissed off right now.

But at least Jon has hit a nail on its' head.
 
[quote author=RaceTo19 link=topic=23939.msg580234#msg580234 date=1211840901]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=23939.msg580212#msg580212 date=1211839549]
[quote author=RaceTo19 link=topic=23939.msg580204#msg580204 date=1211838853]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=23939.msg580191#msg580191 date=1211837830]
[quote author=RaceTo19 link=topic=23939.msg580120#msg580120 date=1211828363]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=23939.msg579781#msg579781 date=1211789020]
She does fucking not mean it!
Shes only saying it as a way of avoiding '1 man team' jibes.
Least i fuckin hope so, or she is the worst type of fan. One who has no affinity with the club or players who is only interested in trophy hauls.
Any fan who would put a price on a player who is integral to their being is a fucking moron, and has no understanding of the history, tradition or soul of a club.
Roscos response is the correct one.
'we'll think about it at a billion'
*shakes head*
[/quote]

Don't be so melodramatic!
What exactly is football about to you? Why does every here want to keep hold of Torres so badly? Is it not to so he can help Liverpool win trophies?

All I'm was saying is that despite everyone's outrage every single player has their price. Ronaldo, Kaka, Messi or yes even Torres have a price that their clubs would sell at, despite what they say in public.

As much as we all hate it football is now big business and there is fuck all any of us can do about it!
At the end of the day the whole game is about making money. £50m is more profit that Liverpool will make in the next 3 or 4 years I just don't see many clubs rejecting bids in that region.


[/quote]

I dont think i have ever felt as upset as i do about this post Race.
It is the embodiment of all that is wrong with the game of football.
It doesnt suprise me that a Manchester United fan (the self proclaimed worlds biggest club) sees only measurements garnered through wealth and possession.
The fact that you 'a fan' would endeavor to perpetuate this ridiculous argument saddens me.

YES the clubs are run as a business, but what part of that onvolves you 'the fan'?
Some rich people with an idea and a sense of greed have taken control of our game and are using it to make money, but that doesnt for one second mean that i (or you) have to buy into that. The soul of your club is not measured in spreadsheets. Its history isnt about which year it became the richest club.

Nothing NOTHING would make me accept my club being seen solely as a business, and i think it is desperately sad that you or any football fan would.
You are right with your 'like it or not they are businesses' line, but what difference does or should that make to me? I am a fan, not a shareholder. I am passionate about my clubs results and her identity, not her bottom line.

The fact that you could accept that suprises me, the fact that you would see a player as an asset and not a representative of something you love. Not as an idol, an icon, a hero is very very sad.
That you have no affinity to your players and dont mind them coming or going as long as you get the correct amount underwritten to your chairmans investment arm is to me genuinely shocking.

Manchester United deserve your loyalty not your tinpot accountancy skills.

My club will never mean anything as crass as a bottome fucking line to me. Fernando Torres is not being used here to demonstrate a player or a token that can or cannot be bartered with, of course decisions can be made that would be out of our control. But what he represents in this particular argument is the spirit and history and importance of our club. If it was any player the feeling would be the same. If he is a playing asset to our club, then he should never be viewed in any other way.

Like it or not - you say

I do not.
[/quote]

Oncy, I agree with your sentiments on the ownership of football clubs completely.

Manchester United is more than "a company" to me, it is a massive part of my LIFE, but the sad reality is to the people that own it is nothing more than a company.

Players are assets to them. They have a value to them measured completely in $$$$.
All I was saying was that anyone who believes that the "owners" wouldn't accept a £50m, £75m or £100m are wrong. Because they may just grap it with both hands.

The tradition, heritage of the club and pride I have in being a Manc isn't affected by our transfer dealings, never will be.
[/quote]

Of course they may grasp it Race. Of course to them its a company, but that doesnt mean you readily have to accept it. You the fan have no financial interests in Manchester United. Your interests are totally emotional right? So to say you would accept it because you dont have a choice as it isnt up to you and those it is up to would accept it, is tantamount to saying you would give up your emotional attachment to the club and become purely accepting of whatever the owners would lay down in front of you as what they deemed 'in the best interests of the club'.

As i said in my first post, i dont believe (if push came to shove) that you would accept it, and i think alot of your bravado about the chance of Ronaldo leaving is to do with you wanting to say your club is bigger than him and you dont need him. OF COURSE IT IS, OF COURSE YOU DONT. But you should WANT him with all your heart, and not be so willing to accept the decision the Glazers may or may not make.

I dont mean to have a go, but you are either putting on a cold emotionless (Manchester money machine) front, or you are a shit fan. I know thats a shit thing to say, but if you would swallow a corporate decision for your club then thats what i believe.

I say again, if Fernando Torres is sold to Chelsea because they offer a shit load of cash, i will no longer consider myself a fan of the thing that Liverpool football club will have become.
[/quote]

Hang on her a second Oncy before you go calling someone else a "shit fan"!! >🙁
A look in the mirror may be in order!
Because I don't care what owner happens to be in charge at the time no decision they could ever make would make me stop supporting United.
I love and will continue live trough every up and down Manchester United have for the rest of my life, regardless of what happens on or off the field.

But I am also a realist and I have accepted that the world I have gown up in has changed and no amount of huffing and puffing on my behalf is going to change that.
Football is a big business and will be a business from now on. You can't change it so you have to accept IMO otherwise you are just going to end up old and twisted because the world has changed and you couldn't keep up.

The only football I have to love is the football that is here now.

[/quote]

That is an really odd attitude, in my opinion.
 
[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=23939.msg580241#msg580241 date=1211841277]
[quote author=RaceTo19 link=topic=23939.msg580234#msg580234 date=1211840901]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=23939.msg580212#msg580212 date=1211839549]
[quote author=RaceTo19 link=topic=23939.msg580204#msg580204 date=1211838853]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=23939.msg580191#msg580191 date=1211837830]
[quote author=RaceTo19 link=topic=23939.msg580120#msg580120 date=1211828363]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=23939.msg579781#msg579781 date=1211789020]
She does fucking not mean it!
Shes only saying it as a way of avoiding '1 man team' jibes.
Least i fuckin hope so, or she is the worst type of fan. One who has no affinity with the club or players who is only interested in trophy hauls.
Any fan who would put a price on a player who is integral to their being is a fucking moron, and has no understanding of the history, tradition or soul of a club.
Roscos response is the correct one.
'we'll think about it at a billion'
*shakes head*
[/quote]

Don't be so melodramatic!
What exactly is football about to you? Why does every here want to keep hold of Torres so badly? Is it not to so he can help Liverpool win trophies?

All I'm was saying is that despite everyone's outrage every single player has their price. Ronaldo, Kaka, Messi or yes even Torres have a price that their clubs would sell at, despite what they say in public.

As much as we all hate it football is now big business and there is fuck all any of us can do about it!
At the end of the day the whole game is about making money. £50m is more profit that Liverpool will make in the next 3 or 4 years I just don't see many clubs rejecting bids in that region.


[/quote]

I dont think i have ever felt as upset as i do about this post Race.
It is the embodiment of all that is wrong with the game of football.
It doesnt suprise me that a Manchester United fan (the self proclaimed worlds biggest club) sees only measurements garnered through wealth and possession.
The fact that you 'a fan' would endeavor to perpetuate this ridiculous argument saddens me.

YES the clubs are run as a business, but what part of that onvolves you 'the fan'?
Some rich people with an idea and a sense of greed have taken control of our game and are using it to make money, but that doesnt for one second mean that i (or you) have to buy into that. The soul of your club is not measured in spreadsheets. Its history isnt about which year it became the richest club.

Nothing NOTHING would make me accept my club being seen solely as a business, and i think it is desperately sad that you or any football fan would.
You are right with your 'like it or not they are businesses' line, but what difference does or should that make to me? I am a fan, not a shareholder. I am passionate about my clubs results and her identity, not her bottom line.

The fact that you could accept that suprises me, the fact that you would see a player as an asset and not a representative of something you love. Not as an idol, an icon, a hero is very very sad.
That you have no affinity to your players and dont mind them coming or going as long as you get the correct amount underwritten to your chairmans investment arm is to me genuinely shocking.

Manchester United deserve your loyalty not your tinpot accountancy skills.

My club will never mean anything as crass as a bottome fucking line to me. Fernando Torres is not being used here to demonstrate a player or a token that can or cannot be bartered with, of course decisions can be made that would be out of our control. But what he represents in this particular argument is the spirit and history and importance of our club. If it was any player the feeling would be the same. If he is a playing asset to our club, then he should never be viewed in any other way.

Like it or not - you say

I do not.
[/quote]

Oncy, I agree with your sentiments on the ownership of football clubs completely.

Manchester United is more than "a company" to me, it is a massive part of my LIFE, but the sad reality is to the people that own it is nothing more than a company.

Players are assets to them. They have a value to them measured completely in $$$$.
All I was saying was that anyone who believes that the "owners" wouldn't accept a £50m, £75m or £100m are wrong. Because they may just grap it with both hands.

The tradition, heritage of the club and pride I have in being a Manc isn't affected by our transfer dealings, never will be.
[/quote]

Of course they may grasp it Race. Of course to them its a company, but that doesnt mean you readily have to accept it. You the fan have no financial interests in Manchester United. Your interests are totally emotional right? So to say you would accept it because you dont have a choice as it isnt up to you and those it is up to would accept it, is tantamount to saying you would give up your emotional attachment to the club and become purely accepting of whatever the owners would lay down in front of you as what they deemed 'in the best interests of the club'.

As i said in my first post, i dont believe (if push came to shove) that you would accept it, and i think alot of your bravado about the chance of Ronaldo leaving is to do with you wanting to say your club is bigger than him and you dont need him. OF COURSE IT IS, OF COURSE YOU DONT. But you should WANT him with all your heart, and not be so willing to accept the decision the Glazers may or may not make.

I dont mean to have a go, but you are either putting on a cold emotionless (Manchester money machine) front, or you are a shit fan. I know thats a shit thing to say, but if you would swallow a corporate decision for your club then thats what i believe.

I say again, if Fernando Torres is sold to Chelsea because they offer a shit load of cash, i will no longer consider myself a fan of the thing that Liverpool football club will have become.
[/quote]

Hang on her a second Oncy before you go calling someone else a "shit fan"!! >🙁
A look in the mirror may be in order!
Because I don't care what owner happens to be in charge at the time no decision they could ever make would make me stop supporting United.
I love and will continue live trough every up and down Manchester United have for the rest of my life, regardless of what happens on or off the field.

But I am also a realist and I have accepted that the world I have gown up in has changed and no amount of huffing and puffing on my behalf is going to change that.
Football is a big business and will be a business from now on. You can't change it so you have to accept IMO otherwise you are just going to end up old and twisted because the world has changed and you couldn't keep up.

The only football I have to love is the football that is here now.

[/quote]

That is an really odd attitude, in my opinion.


[/quote]

I think it is a really odd attitude that someone could actually considered "stopping" being a supporter of the club they say they love.
How exactly would you go about doing that?
 
[quote author=RaceTo19 link=topic=23939.msg580246#msg580246 date=1211841480]
[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=23939.msg580241#msg580241 date=1211841277]
[quote author=RaceTo19 link=topic=23939.msg580234#msg580234 date=1211840901]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=23939.msg580212#msg580212 date=1211839549]
[quote author=RaceTo19 link=topic=23939.msg580204#msg580204 date=1211838853]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=23939.msg580191#msg580191 date=1211837830]
[quote author=RaceTo19 link=topic=23939.msg580120#msg580120 date=1211828363]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=23939.msg579781#msg579781 date=1211789020]
She does fucking not mean it!
Shes only saying it as a way of avoiding '1 man team' jibes.
Least i fuckin hope so, or she is the worst type of fan. One who has no affinity with the club or players who is only interested in trophy hauls.
Any fan who would put a price on a player who is integral to their being is a fucking moron, and has no understanding of the history, tradition or soul of a club.
Roscos response is the correct one.
'we'll think about it at a billion'
*shakes head*
[/quote]

Don't be so melodramatic!
What exactly is football about to you? Why does every here want to keep hold of Torres so badly? Is it not to so he can help Liverpool win trophies?

All I'm was saying is that despite everyone's outrage every single player has their price. Ronaldo, Kaka, Messi or yes even Torres have a price that their clubs would sell at, despite what they say in public.

As much as we all hate it football is now big business and there is fuck all any of us can do about it!
At the end of the day the whole game is about making money. £50m is more profit that Liverpool will make in the next 3 or 4 years I just don't see many clubs rejecting bids in that region.


[/quote]

I dont think i have ever felt as upset as i do about this post Race.
It is the embodiment of all that is wrong with the game of football.
It doesnt suprise me that a Manchester United fan (the self proclaimed worlds biggest club) sees only measurements garnered through wealth and possession.
The fact that you 'a fan' would endeavor to perpetuate this ridiculous argument saddens me.

YES the clubs are run as a business, but what part of that onvolves you 'the fan'?
Some rich people with an idea and a sense of greed have taken control of our game and are using it to make money, but that doesnt for one second mean that i (or you) have to buy into that. The soul of your club is not measured in spreadsheets. Its history isnt about which year it became the richest club.

Nothing NOTHING would make me accept my club being seen solely as a business, and i think it is desperately sad that you or any football fan would.
You are right with your 'like it or not they are businesses' line, but what difference does or should that make to me? I am a fan, not a shareholder. I am passionate about my clubs results and her identity, not her bottom line.

The fact that you could accept that suprises me, the fact that you would see a player as an asset and not a representative of something you love. Not as an idol, an icon, a hero is very very sad.
That you have no affinity to your players and dont mind them coming or going as long as you get the correct amount underwritten to your chairmans investment arm is to me genuinely shocking.

Manchester United deserve your loyalty not your tinpot accountancy skills.

My club will never mean anything as crass as a bottome fucking line to me. Fernando Torres is not being used here to demonstrate a player or a token that can or cannot be bartered with, of course decisions can be made that would be out of our control. But what he represents in this particular argument is the spirit and history and importance of our club. If it was any player the feeling would be the same. If he is a playing asset to our club, then he should never be viewed in any other way.

Like it or not - you say

I do not.
[/quote]

Oncy, I agree with your sentiments on the ownership of football clubs completely.

Manchester United is more than "a company" to me, it is a massive part of my LIFE, but the sad reality is to the people that own it is nothing more than a company.

Players are assets to them. They have a value to them measured completely in $$$$.
All I was saying was that anyone who believes that the "owners" wouldn't accept a £50m, £75m or £100m are wrong. Because they may just grap it with both hands.

The tradition, heritage of the club and pride I have in being a Manc isn't affected by our transfer dealings, never will be.
[/quote]

Of course they may grasp it Race. Of course to them its a company, but that doesnt mean you readily have to accept it. You the fan have no financial interests in Manchester United. Your interests are totally emotional right? So to say you would accept it because you dont have a choice as it isnt up to you and those it is up to would accept it, is tantamount to saying you would give up your emotional attachment to the club and become purely accepting of whatever the owners would lay down in front of you as what they deemed 'in the best interests of the club'.

As i said in my first post, i dont believe (if push came to shove) that you would accept it, and i think alot of your bravado about the chance of Ronaldo leaving is to do with you wanting to say your club is bigger than him and you dont need him. OF COURSE IT IS, OF COURSE YOU DONT. But you should WANT him with all your heart, and not be so willing to accept the decision the Glazers may or may not make.

I dont mean to have a go, but you are either putting on a cold emotionless (Manchester money machine) front, or you are a shit fan. I know thats a shit thing to say, but if you would swallow a corporate decision for your club then thats what i believe.

I say again, if Fernando Torres is sold to Chelsea because they offer a shit load of cash, i will no longer consider myself a fan of the thing that Liverpool football club will have become.
[/quote]

Hang on her a second Oncy before you go calling someone else a "shit fan"!! >🙁
A look in the mirror may be in order!
Because I don't care what owner happens to be in charge at the time no decision they could ever make would make me stop supporting United.
I love and will continue live trough every up and down Manchester United have for the rest of my life, regardless of what happens on or off the field.

But I am also a realist and I have accepted that the world I have gown up in has changed and no amount of huffing and puffing on my behalf is going to change that.
Football is a big business and will be a business from now on. You can't change it so you have to accept IMO otherwise you are just going to end up old and twisted because the world has changed and you couldn't keep up.

The only football I have to love is the football that is here now.

[/quote]

That is an really odd attitude, in my opinion.


[/quote]

I think it is a really odd attitude that someone could actually considered "stopping" being a supporter of the club they say they love.
How exactly would you go about doing that?
[/quote]

I'd call it Manchester United.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=23939.msg580248#msg580248 date=1211841576]
[quote author=RaceTo19 link=topic=23939.msg580246#msg580246 date=1211841480]
[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=23939.msg580241#msg580241 date=1211841277]
[quote author=RaceTo19 link=topic=23939.msg580234#msg580234 date=1211840901]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=23939.msg580212#msg580212 date=1211839549]
[quote author=RaceTo19 link=topic=23939.msg580204#msg580204 date=1211838853]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=23939.msg580191#msg580191 date=1211837830]
[quote author=RaceTo19 link=topic=23939.msg580120#msg580120 date=1211828363]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=23939.msg579781#msg579781 date=1211789020]
She does fucking not mean it!
Shes only saying it as a way of avoiding '1 man team' jibes.
Least i fuckin hope so, or she is the worst type of fan. One who has no affinity with the club or players who is only interested in trophy hauls.
Any fan who would put a price on a player who is integral to their being is a fucking moron, and has no understanding of the history, tradition or soul of a club.
Roscos response is the correct one.
'we'll think about it at a billion'
*shakes head*
[/quote]

Don't be so melodramatic!
What exactly is football about to you? Why does every here want to keep hold of Torres so badly? Is it not to so he can help Liverpool win trophies?

All I'm was saying is that despite everyone's outrage every single player has their price. Ronaldo, Kaka, Messi or yes even Torres have a price that their clubs would sell at, despite what they say in public.

As much as we all hate it football is now big business and there is fuck all any of us can do about it!
At the end of the day the whole game is about making money. £50m is more profit that Liverpool will make in the next 3 or 4 years I just don't see many clubs rejecting bids in that region.


[/quote]

I dont think i have ever felt as upset as i do about this post Race.
It is the embodiment of all that is wrong with the game of football.
It doesnt suprise me that a Manchester United fan (the self proclaimed worlds biggest club) sees only measurements garnered through wealth and possession.
The fact that you 'a fan' would endeavor to perpetuate this ridiculous argument saddens me.

YES the clubs are run as a business, but what part of that onvolves you 'the fan'?
Some rich people with an idea and a sense of greed have taken control of our game and are using it to make money, but that doesnt for one second mean that i (or you) have to buy into that. The soul of your club is not measured in spreadsheets. Its history isnt about which year it became the richest club.

Nothing NOTHING would make me accept my club being seen solely as a business, and i think it is desperately sad that you or any football fan would.
You are right with your 'like it or not they are businesses' line, but what difference does or should that make to me? I am a fan, not a shareholder. I am passionate about my clubs results and her identity, not her bottom line.

The fact that you could accept that suprises me, the fact that you would see a player as an asset and not a representative of something you love. Not as an idol, an icon, a hero is very very sad.
That you have no affinity to your players and dont mind them coming or going as long as you get the correct amount underwritten to your chairmans investment arm is to me genuinely shocking.

Manchester United deserve your loyalty not your tinpot accountancy skills.

My club will never mean anything as crass as a bottome fucking line to me. Fernando Torres is not being used here to demonstrate a player or a token that can or cannot be bartered with, of course decisions can be made that would be out of our control. But what he represents in this particular argument is the spirit and history and importance of our club. If it was any player the feeling would be the same. If he is a playing asset to our club, then he should never be viewed in any other way.

Like it or not - you say

I do not.
[/quote]

Oncy, I agree with your sentiments on the ownership of football clubs completely.

Manchester United is more than "a company" to me, it is a massive part of my LIFE, but the sad reality is to the people that own it is nothing more than a company.

Players are assets to them. They have a value to them measured completely in $$$$.
All I was saying was that anyone who believes that the "owners" wouldn't accept a £50m, £75m or £100m are wrong. Because they may just grap it with both hands.

The tradition, heritage of the club and pride I have in being a Manc isn't affected by our transfer dealings, never will be.
[/quote]

Of course they may grasp it Race. Of course to them its a company, but that doesnt mean you readily have to accept it. You the fan have no financial interests in Manchester United. Your interests are totally emotional right? So to say you would accept it because you dont have a choice as it isnt up to you and those it is up to would accept it, is tantamount to saying you would give up your emotional attachment to the club and become purely accepting of whatever the owners would lay down in front of you as what they deemed 'in the best interests of the club'.

As i said in my first post, i dont believe (if push came to shove) that you would accept it, and i think alot of your bravado about the chance of Ronaldo leaving is to do with you wanting to say your club is bigger than him and you dont need him. OF COURSE IT IS, OF COURSE YOU DONT. But you should WANT him with all your heart, and not be so willing to accept the decision the Glazers may or may not make.

I dont mean to have a go, but you are either putting on a cold emotionless (Manchester money machine) front, or you are a shit fan. I know thats a shit thing to say, but if you would swallow a corporate decision for your club then thats what i believe.

I say again, if Fernando Torres is sold to Chelsea because they offer a shit load of cash, i will no longer consider myself a fan of the thing that Liverpool football club will have become.
[/quote]

Hang on her a second Oncy before you go calling someone else a "shit fan"!! >🙁
A look in the mirror may be in order!
Because I don't care what owner happens to be in charge at the time no decision they could ever make would make me stop supporting United.
I love and will continue live trough every up and down Manchester United have for the rest of my life, regardless of what happens on or off the field.

But I am also a realist and I have accepted that the world I have gown up in has changed and no amount of huffing and puffing on my behalf is going to change that.
Football is a big business and will be a business from now on. You can't change it so you have to accept IMO otherwise you are just going to end up old and twisted because the world has changed and you couldn't keep up.

The only football I have to love is the football that is here now.

[/quote]

That is an really odd attitude, in my opinion.


[/quote]

I think it is a really odd attitude that someone could actually considered "stopping" being a supporter of the club they say they love.
How exactly would you go about doing that?
[/quote]

I'd call it Manchester United.
[/quote]

You know you'd still love it anyway 😉
 
[quote author=vantage link=topic=23939.msg580240#msg580240 date=1211841211]
That post, however accurate, saddens me. I have never been able to do any of that. 'kin 'ell. I am very pissed off right now.

But at least Jon has hit a nail on its' head.


[/quote]

many of our posters wont, but there's similar rites & traditions that surround the club & matches for others, & I bet for most fans over the age of around 26+ (so have enjoyed pre/ very early premiership footy properly) will have seen those things eroded or vanish to be replaced by this glossy, over marketed, over hyped thing we have now.
 
Bollocks.

However you take what Oncey or anyone else has said. I don't for one moment believe they literally mean they'd cease to have feelings for the club, their ears would still prick upon hearing us on the tv or the radio, they'd still be happy deep down knowing the club had won or whatever, you don't hate something, you just become disattached, numb - My dad being a prime example, still checks the scores etc but would he pay over the odds to go to a league game, no he wouldn't.

Whereas what you say you feel, in my opinion is genuinely quite scary. Your whole attitude towards the fans having to adapt and evolve parallel to the game changing. We shoudln't have to. It shouldn't happen, it's bollocks. Division 1 being whored out into a new brand name is bollocks, this european elite league nonsense is bollocks, this playing a league game in fucking Shanghai or wherever is bollocks; I can't believe anyone who genuinely has a heart and a passion for something would adopt an attitude towards all this as you have.
 
[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=23939.msg580257#msg580257 date=1211841895]
Bollocks.

However you take what Oncey or anyone else has said. I don't for one moment believe they literally mean they'd cease to have feelings for the club, their ears would still prick upon hearing us on the tv or the radio, they'd still be happy deep down knowing the club had won or whatever, you don't hate something, you just become disattached, numb - My dad being a prime example, still checks the scores etc but would he pay over the odds to go to a league game, no he wouldn't.

Whereas what you say you feel, in my opinion is genuinely quite scary. Your whole attitude towards the fans having to adapt and evolve parallel to the game changing. We shoudln't have to. It shouldn't happen, it's bollocks. Division 1 being whored out into a new brand name is bollocks, this european elite league nonsense is bollocks, this playing a league game in fucking Shanghai or wherever is bollocks; I can't believe anyone who genuinely has a heart and a passion for something would adopt an attitude towards all this as you have.
[/quote]

Great post.
 
[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=23939.msg580257#msg580257 date=1211841895]
Bollocks.

However you take what Oncey or anyone else has said. I don't for one moment believe they literally mean they'd cease to have feelings for the club, their ears would still prick upon hearing us on the tv or the radio, they'd still be happy deep down knowing the club had won or whatever, you don't hate something, you just become disattached, numb - My dad being a prime example, still checks the scores etc but would he pay over the odds to go to a league game, no he wouldn't.

Whereas what you say you feel, in my opinion is genuinely quite scary. Your whole attitude towards the fans having to adapt and evolve parallel to the game changing. We shoudln't have to. It shouldn't happen, it's bollocks. Division 1 being whored out into a new brand name is bollocks, this european elite league nonsense is bollocks, this playing a league game in fucking Shanghai or wherever is bollocks; I can't believe anyone who genuinely has a heart and a passion for something would adopt an attitude towards all this as you have.
[/quote]

But if you follow your line then at some stage as you get older you WILL fall out of love with the club.

Is this just the age old story of getting older and the phrase "things were better in my day" just about sums it up. Things probably were better in our days but there is no going back to them now and things will probably get even worse in our opinion as time goes on.

If you can't learn to accept it you'll be left with nothing but memories and bitterness IMO
 
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=23939.msg580253#msg580253 date=1211841773]
[quote author=vantage link=topic=23939.msg580240#msg580240 date=1211841211]
That post, however accurate, saddens me. I have never been able to do any of that. 'kin 'ell. I am very pissed off right now.

But at least Jon has hit a nail on its' head.


[/quote]

many of our posters wont, but there's similar rites & traditions that surround the club & matches for others, & I bet for most fans over the age of around 26+ (so have enjoyed pre/ very early premiership footy properly) will have seen those things eroded or vanish to be replaced by this glossy, over marketed, over hyped thing we have now.
[/quote]

Ii am definitely over 26 and I can remember the pre Sky days.

As someone who lived in the south of England, I had to listen to the Radio(Radio 2 in those days) just to keep up with the European campaigns. Sky have brought them to my TV, but at what price?
 
[quote author=RaceTo19 link=topic=23939.msg580269#msg580269 date=1211842261]
[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=23939.msg580257#msg580257 date=1211841895]
Bollocks.

However you take what Oncey or anyone else has said. I don't for one moment believe they literally mean they'd cease to have feelings for the club, their ears would still prick upon hearing us on the tv or the radio, they'd still be happy deep down knowing the club had won or whatever, you don't hate something, you just become disattached, numb - My dad being a prime example, still checks the scores etc but would he pay over the odds to go to a league game, no he wouldn't.

Whereas what you say you feel, in my opinion is genuinely quite scary. Your whole attitude towards the fans having to adapt and evolve parallel to the game changing. We shoudln't have to. It shouldn't happen, it's bollocks. Division 1 being whored out into a new brand name is bollocks, this european elite league nonsense is bollocks, this playing a league game in fucking Shanghai or wherever is bollocks; I can't believe anyone who genuinely has a heart and a passion for something would adopt an attitude towards all this as you have.
[/quote]

But if you follow your line then at some stage as you get older you WILL fall out of love with the club.

Is this just the age old story of getting older and the phrase "things were better in my day" just about sums it up. Things probably were better in our days but there is no going back to them now and things will probably get even worse in our opinion as time goes on.

If you can't learn to accept it you'll be left with nothing but memories and bitterness IMO
[/quote]

It doesn't have to happen.

Things don't have to incline. Wage budgets, transfer budgets, having a minimum of 5 english players or whatever.

Sure quality of football would decrease in the short term, but fucking hell the feel good factor, plus in the longterm it can only be good for football.

The only people that'd lose would be Bankers and the wankers, big loss that. Also as I above said, you don't resent the club, you wont or atleast shouldn't be bitter, but it's value will obviously decrease. This is like talking to a brick wall, to be fair Race, I think the fact that the only time I've seen I read your posts it's been regarding the financial aspects of our clubs pretty much sumarises my view of you a football fan. Statistics, fiscal values, bigger, who's better etc? That, that is when people start getting bitter and twisted.
 
[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=23939.msg580272#msg580272 date=1211842559]
[quote author=RaceTo19 link=topic=23939.msg580269#msg580269 date=1211842261]
[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=23939.msg580257#msg580257 date=1211841895]
Bollocks.

However you take what Oncey or anyone else has said. I don't for one moment believe they literally mean they'd cease to have feelings for the club, their ears would still prick upon hearing us on the tv or the radio, they'd still be happy deep down knowing the club had won or whatever, you don't hate something, you just become disattached, numb - My dad being a prime example, still checks the scores etc but would he pay over the odds to go to a league game, no he wouldn't.

Whereas what you say you feel, in my opinion is genuinely quite scary. Your whole attitude towards the fans having to adapt and evolve parallel to the game changing. We shoudln't have to. It shouldn't happen, it's bollocks. Division 1 being whored out into a new brand name is bollocks, this european elite league nonsense is bollocks, this playing a league game in fucking Shanghai or wherever is bollocks; I can't believe anyone who genuinely has a heart and a passion for something would adopt an attitude towards all this as you have.
[/quote]

But if you follow your line then at some stage as you get older you WILL fall out of love with the club.

Is this just the age old story of getting older and the phrase "things were better in my day" just about sums it up. Things probably were better in our days but there is no going back to them now and things will probably get even worse in our opinion as time goes on.

If you can't learn to accept it you'll be left with nothing but memories and bitterness IMO
[/quote]

It doesn't have to happen.

Things don't have to incline. Wage budgets, transfer budgets, having a minimum of 5 english players or whatever.

Sure quality of football would decrease in the short term, but fucking hell the feel good factor, plus in the longterm it can only be good for football.

The only people that'd lose would be Bankers and the wankers, big loss that. Also as I above said, you don't resent the club, you wont or atleast shouldn't be bitter, but it's value will obviously decrease. This is like talking to a brick wall, to be fair Race, I think the fact that the only time I've seen I read your posts it's been regarding the financial aspects of our clubs pretty much sumarises my view of you a football fan. Statistics, fiscal values, bigger, who's better etc? That, that is when people start getting bitter and twisted.
[/quote]

Fuck you!!!
I'm on a Liverpool forum for fuck sake. How long would I last if I came on here talking about how much I loved United and how a great a club we are?
 
RaceTo19's attitude is indeed pretty sad, but I don't agree with this football is dead shit.

I've often spoken about the state of music in the same way FFF just did about football. I miss rummaging through 2nd hand CD stores. I miss taking albums home, going through the artwork, learning the songs and playing an album for three months straight because hey, they're expensive and you don't just buy them every day. Most of all, I miss just caring about it all. You got to appreciate music more back then because you had to really go out of your way to seek it out and when you got it, you could take your time with it. Now, people just go and copy 100GB of music at a time and if you don't like an album in the first few seconds, you've literally got thousands more to choose from at your fingertips.

You know what though, I still listen to music all the time and I still enjoy it. We get older and move on in the same way the things we love do and it sucks letting go, but that's just the way it is - you have to move with the times.

Try telling a 10 year old that football is dead.
 
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