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[quote author=Sunny link=topic=41729.msg1168865#msg1168865 date=1283375771]
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=41729.msg1168828#msg1168828 date=1283372230]

Houllier seems to have lad a lot less money to spend than Rafa and although he left us some turkeys like Traore, Rafa left us some turkeys too and they cost a lot more.

[/quote]

True that but it can also be said there was a lot less lunacy in the transfer markets back then
[/quote]


i'd also strongly question whether houllier really had less money to spend than rafa, at least in any meaningful (ie adjusted for inflation) way. transfer spending increased massively (due to big increases in clubs' incomes) over the years, so it's useless to use nominal figures.

it's difficult to prove either way, but i always had the impression that ged had more leverage, more freedom, in the market than rafa: in 2000, for example, he was able to spend £5.5m on igor biscan - an unproven youngster at the time - for a position we were already well stocked, just months after spending £3m on bernard diomede, a player who was such a luxury as to only make, what, 3 or 4 appearances for the club?

i know some will be outraged at this, but i think in real terms houllier actually spent more than benitez. i certainly don't think houllier would ever have been denied signing dani alves for want of a couple of million, for example.
 
There may have been a fair bit of exaggeration involved in what i said, but i still stand by my point of view.

Houlier inherited the spice-boys and left a disciplined team. With a hell of defensive line that was the best in the league for the next three years running. Gerrard and Owen were disgruntled, but only one of them ended up leaving the club. Houlier at the time said that Benitez would benefit from the organization he had engineered at Liverpool, and it turned out to be true. Further team also finished 4th. Arsenal had a record breaking and stellar squad. United still had the majority of their stalwarts playing at their peak for them, and were purchasing a 30 million player every year. Chelsea spent a fortune on a new squad. Newcastle and Leeds offered credible competition for the best of the rest, and even outspent Houlier. Houlier's record transfer fee was 14 million paid out for Cisse. Enough said. So at the top, the league was competitive and it took one of the best allround season performance from Steven Gerrard to drag the team up to 4th place. But we did finish there and i don't see how anyone can just dismiss that by saying we only did it in an easy league and that we scored only 60 points.

The league winner in 2008 had over 90 points, and the league winner in 2009 had only 83 points - so do you think the league was tougher in 2008?

Rafa not only inherited a 4th place team that was extremely competitive in Cup tournaments, he was allowed to spend a fortune on that team. He was only outspent by Chelsea in the next three to four years. Yet the squad surprisingly retained the weakness from Houliers squad during those 4 years - (poor wingers/wing-forwards and only one good striker). In the next two years the squad went in to further decline. With Benitez not making a single good purchase in the transfer market, in spite of spending close to 20 million great British pounds on three separate occasions. The defense that had become the pride of Liverpool was slowly turning into a joke - shipping goals for fun. The central midfield was unsettled to the extent that Lucas Leiva had become first choice (I can guarantee he won't make the squad in any of the top 6 clubs). The entire squad bar Carragher and Kuyt was unsettled. Gerrard/Torres and Masher were seriously contemplating an exit. Rierra, Yossi, Babel and Masher were unsettled beyond a point of return. At the time of his departure we had the worst possible wide-forwards among the top 6 clubs, and with Insua and Johnson as the only recognized full-backs, and we still have only one good striker.

I'm sorry but Benitez lost the plot big time. As Carra said, it was time for a change. Houlier was struggling, but his mistakes were far fewer and far less expensive.

Houlier finished 2nd in the league once - mounting a failed title challenge. He won UEFA cup, FA cup, and the Carling cup. He was always competitive in cup tournaments. So he did not do that poorly compared to Benitez, and he did not leave a squad that appeared to be in terminal decline.

I still stand by my first post in this thread.
 
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=41729.msg1168922#msg1168922 date=1283388596]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=41729.msg1168865#msg1168865 date=1283375771]
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=41729.msg1168828#msg1168828 date=1283372230]

Houllier seems to have lad a lot less money to spend than Rafa and although he left us some turkeys like Traore, Rafa left us some turkeys too and they cost a lot more.

[/quote]

True that but it can also be said there was a lot less lunacy in the transfer markets back then
[/quote]


i'd also strongly question whether houllier really had less money to spend than rafa, at least in any meaningful (ie adjusted for inflation) way. transfer spending increased massively (due to big increases in clubs' incomes) over the years, so it's useless to use nominal figures.

it's difficult to prove either way, but i always had the impression that ged had more leverage, more freedom, in the market than rafa: in 2000, for example, he was able to spend £5.5m on igor biscan - an unproven youngster at the time - for a position we were already well stocked, just months after spending £3m on bernard diomede, a player who was such a luxury as to only make, what, 3 or 4 appearances for the club?

i know some will be outraged at this, but i think in real terms houllier actually spent more than benitez. i certainly don't think houllier would ever have been denied signing dani alves for want of a couple of million, for example.
[/quote]

Why?

He ws denied Ronaldo for want of a few million.

I think Rafa was a better manager than Houllier, but it was the same errors and stubbornness which cost both men their jobs.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41729.msg1168639#msg1168639 date=1283349727]
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=41729.msg1168633#msg1168633 date=1283349418]
I don't even think it remains to be seen, it's just wrong.
[/quote]I was being polite. I dont want Jexy and Mamma accusing me of sly digs
[/quote]

Ha ha no worries, I haven't built up enough paranoia to consider second guessing another posters intentions and accuse him or her of sly digs.

By the way you weren't getting in a sly dig there, were you? ;D

FWIW I can't separate the managers, shamelessly I liked and respected both despite their flaws. I always thought that both had the best interests of LFC at heart.

Along with Roy Hodgson I think they're all dignified professionals who would benefit from just being a coach and not having to navigate all the internal politics that makes their jobs so much more difficult.

As for the squads I'd go narrowly for Houllier's (with the exception of Torres of course).

I hope GH is in the frame for the Villa job as I think he'd do well.
 
[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=41729.msg1168921#msg1168921 date=1283386946]

The League isn't more competitive now, it just suits us to say that as we came 7th.

In fact a higher points total in coming 7th than 4th points to more shit teams in the League, and more points to be had, surely?

Houllier's legacy was a CL place & a team capable of winning it. Benitez' legacy is 7th, players wanting away & squad disharmony.

I'm not discounting who actually won the thing in 2005, and our increased financial constraints, but seeing as we are discussing 'legacy', its not really debatable.

Anyway, I just read Curbishley.

[/quote]

Houllier did not leave a team capable of winning the Champions League. There were two quite important additions that made it possible. And even then it was highly improbable.
 
I think the idea that ged left a squad capable of winning the cl is a bit of a strange one.

You could have given that very same squad 10 attempts at doing It again and it wouldn't have happened.

I think 'ged left a hungry gerrard and a bagful of good fortune' is a more accurate statement.
 
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=41729.msg1168939#msg1168939 date=1283408705]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=41729.msg1168922#msg1168922 date=1283388596]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=41729.msg1168865#msg1168865 date=1283375771]
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=41729.msg1168828#msg1168828 date=1283372230]

Houllier seems to have lad a lot less money to spend than Rafa and although he left us some turkeys like Traore, Rafa left us some turkeys too and they cost a lot more.

[/quote]

True that but it can also be said there was a lot less lunacy in the transfer markets back then
[/quote]


i'd also strongly question whether houllier really had less money to spend than rafa, at least in any meaningful (ie adjusted for inflation) way. transfer spending increased massively (due to big increases in clubs' incomes) over the years, so it's useless to use nominal figures.

it's difficult to prove either way, but i always had the impression that ged had more leverage, more freedom, in the market than rafa: in 2000, for example, he was able to spend £5.5m on igor biscan - an unproven youngster at the time - for a position we were already well stocked, just months after spending £3m on bernard diomede, a player who was such a luxury as to only make, what, 3 or 4 appearances for the club?

i know some will be outraged at this, but i think in real terms houllier actually spent more than benitez. i certainly don't think houllier would ever have been denied signing dani alves for want of a couple of million, for example.
[/quote]

Why?

He ws denied Ronaldo for want of a few million.

I think Rafa was a better manager than Houllier, but it was the same errors and stubbornness which cost both men their jobs.
[/quote]

That's touch OTT. We bid £6.5m for Ronaldo and had the bid accepted only for Utd to come in and offer best part of £14m. In those days an additional £7m would have been considered quite an additional amount. Look at it this way, it was 50% more than we had bid and had accepted. We had a similar situation with Simao. We bid they accepted and then decided to up the price at the last minute. We pulled out.

Some clubs were looking to hold people to ransom and we just didn't have the ability to be screwed like that.
 
Yes, it's a bit excessive.

I'll admit that, but I think the point still stands..Houiller was quite profligate in buying crappy players, as was Rafa.

Perhaps Houillier was worse in relative terms considering inflation, but it's not surprising that we're suffering with many tears of bad buys.

One thing I will suggest is that Hodgson is in a position worse than Rafa's and Houlier's put together.
 
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=41729.msg1168944#msg1168944 date=1283410651]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41729.msg1168639#msg1168639 date=1283349727]
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=41729.msg1168633#msg1168633 date=1283349418]
I don't even think it remains to be seen, it's just wrong.
[/quote]I was being polite. I dont want Jexy and Mamma accusing me of sly digs
[/quote]

Ha ha no worries, I haven't built up enough paranoia to consider second guessing another posters intentions and accuse him or her of sly digs.

By the way you weren't getting in a sly dig there, were you? ;D

FWIW I can't separate the managers, shamelessly I liked and respected both despite their flaws. I always thought that both had the best interests of LFC at heart.

Along with Roy Hodgson I think they're all dignified professionals who would benefit from just being a coach and not having to navigate all the internal politics that makes their jobs so much more difficult.

As for the squads I'd go narrowly for Houllier's (with the exception of Torres of course).

I hope GH is in the frame for the Villa job as I think he'd do well.
[/quote]

Well, I'm not quite sure if it was paranoid since I knew exactly what Mark was talking about ..and your posting style is pretty transparent.

Rafa was probably the better manager though.
 
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=41729.msg1168946#msg1168946 date=1283411328]
[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=41729.msg1168921#msg1168921 date=1283386946]

The League isn't more competitive now, it just suits us to say that as we came 7th.

In fact a higher points total in coming 7th than 4th points to more shit teams in the League, and more points to be had, surely?

Houllier's legacy was a CL place & a team capable of winning it. Benitez' legacy is 7th, players wanting away & squad disharmony.

I'm not discounting who actually won the thing in 2005, and our increased financial constraints, but seeing as we are discussing 'legacy', its not really debatable.

Anyway, I just read Curbishley.

[/quote]

Houllier did not leave a team capable of winning the Champions League. There were two quite important additions that made it possible. And even then it was highly improbable.
[/quote]

He left 9 of the 11 starting players that did win it.

There were 2 other additions that contributed rather than 'made it possible'.

Either way, we stood a better chance of winning it in 2005 than we do this season.
 
[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=41729.msg1168960#msg1168960 date=1283415295]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=41729.msg1168946#msg1168946 date=1283411328]
[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=41729.msg1168921#msg1168921 date=1283386946]

The League isn't more competitive now, it just suits us to say that as we came 7th.

In fact a higher points total in coming 7th than 4th points to more shit teams in the League, and more points to be had, surely?

Houllier's legacy was a CL place & a team capable of winning it. Benitez' legacy is 7th, players wanting away & squad disharmony.

I'm not discounting who actually won the thing in 2005, and our increased financial constraints, but seeing as we are discussing 'legacy', its not really debatable.

Anyway, I just read Curbishley.

[/quote]

Houllier did not leave a team capable of winning the Champions League. There were two quite important additions that made it possible. And even then it was highly improbable.
[/quote]

He left 9 of the 11 starting players that did win it.

There were 2 other additions that contributed rather than 'made it possible'.

Either way, we stood a better chance of winning it in 2005 than we do this season.

[/quote]

well yeah could be the fact you would have to be in the competition first to win it... 😉
 
Either way, we stood a better chance of winning it in 2005 than we do this season.
Click to expand...

Yes, because in 2005 we had Benitez as manager who has won two titles in Spain, and a UEFA cup and would go on to win the European Cup in 2005, and reach the final again in 2007.

Now we have Roy Hodgson, who won something in Norway once.
 
I'd have thought the more obvious reason would be because Rafa finished outside the Top 4.

Even if Rafa was on paper certainly the far better manager.
 
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=41729.msg1168958#msg1168958 date=1283414935]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=41729.msg1168944#msg1168944 date=1283410651]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41729.msg1168639#msg1168639 date=1283349727]
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=41729.msg1168633#msg1168633 date=1283349418]
I don't even think it remains to be seen, it's just wrong.
[/quote]I was being polite. I dont want Jexy and Mamma accusing me of sly digs
[/quote]

Ha ha no worries, I haven't built up enough paranoia to consider second guessing another posters intentions and accuse him or her of sly digs.

By the way you weren't getting in a sly dig there, were you? ;D

FWIW I can't separate the managers, shamelessly I liked and respected both despite their flaws. I always thought that both had the best interests of LFC at heart.

Along with Roy Hodgson I think they're all dignified professionals who would benefit from just being a coach and not having to navigate all the internal politics that makes their jobs so much more difficult.

As for the squads I'd go narrowly for Houllier's (with the exception of Torres of course).

I hope GH is in the frame for the Villa job as I think he'd do well.
[/quote]

Well, I'm not quite sure if it was paranoid since I knew exactly what Mark was talking about ..and your posting style is pretty transparent.

Rafa was probably the better manager though.
[/quote]

Given that numerous posters couldn't work out what it was you and Mark were banging on about in regards to my posts yesterday you might want to reconsider whether your perception is reliable.

I'm sure if we all spent ages analyzing each poster and reading stuff into their every utterance it would become as dull as this ongoing dialogue. I mean look what Mark says by way of explanation, he says my hope that Roy would be a lucky Manager (which I thought would be a shared hope) was a dig!. Seriously, come on; that's just plain odd to interpret it that way.

Anyway enough of the to-ing and fro-ing from me, my last word on it.

By the way you're probably right about Benitez edging it in the managerial stakes but it's close.
 
I think the league is more competitive now than it was at the end of Ged's era/start of Rafa's. It certainly is in the top half of the league.

Let's put it this way, in Rafa's first season, our only real challengers for that 4th Champion's place were Everton.

Now, Everton still can't be discounted but Spurs, Manchester City and maybe Villa will be there or there abouts.

If all Roy has to do is get the better of Everton this season, I would fancy our chances greatly. Even Rafa (the mad loopy one), got the better of them last season with a squad that didn't seem like it could be bothered for half the games (and with Lucas a mainstay in our engine room).

There really isn't much in it in terms of their legacies as can be shown by people arguing the case for both.
 
Each of them is a good manager whose range of attributes ultimately proved too limited to grow with the job.

Close as the decision between them may be, Istanbul has to decide it in Rafa's favour though IMHO. It's true that most of those players were GH signings, but he was never going to bring Bigears home with them.
 
just to follow up on my point from last night about houllier having more to spend than benitez, here are rough figures for the tv rights deals during their times in charge (including foreign & internet rights where i could find them):

- 1997 - 2001 = £167.5m per season
- 2001 - 2004 = £333.3m per season
- 2004 - 2007 = £666.7m per season
- 2007 -2010 = £900m per season

so while there are other factors governing transfer prices, and certainly other streams of income such as ticket prices haven't increased at such dizzying rates, it should still be clear to everyone that it would've taken rafa a lot more in 2009 to sign el-hadji diouf than the £10m houllier spent in 2002. probably as much as the £20m he wasted on aquilani, i'd suggest.
 
Because the TV money tripled, you mean that means Diouf would have cost 3 times as much if Rafa had bought him?
 
it would've taken rafa a lot more in 2009 to sign el-hadji diouf than the £10m houllier spent in 2002. probably as much as the £20m he wasted on aquilani, i'd suggest.
Click to expand...

No it wouldn't. He was a virtual unknown playing for a shit team in France and not scoring many goals. He wouldn't be worth £10.5m now.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=41729.msg1169003#msg1169003 date=1283422232]
it would've taken rafa a lot more in 2009 to sign el-hadji diouf than the £10m houllier spent in 2002. probably as much as the £20m he wasted on aquilani, i'd suggest.
Click to expand...

No it wouldn't. He was a virtual unknown playing for a shit team in France and not scoring many goals. He wouldn't be worth £10.5m now.
[/quote]

He was African player of the year in 2001 and 2002, and a star of the 2002 WC. Lens were the league runners-up the year we bought him.
 
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=41729.msg1169002#msg1169002 date=1283422222]
Because the TV money tripled, you mean that means Diouf would have cost 3 times as much if Rafa had bought him?
[/quote]


try reading my post again. or give up,either suits me fine.[quote author=Brendan link=topic=41729.msg1169003#msg1169003 date=1283422232]
it would've taken rafa a lot more in 2009 to sign el-hadji diouf than the £10m houllier spent in 2002. probably as much as the £20m he wasted on aquilani, i'd suggest.
Click to expand...

No it wouldn't. He was a virtual unknown playing for a shit team in France and not scoring many goals. He wouldn't be worth £10.5m now.
[/quote]


what, you think there's been no transfer inflation since 2002? seriously?

come on.
 
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=41729.msg1169004#msg1169004 date=1283422526]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=41729.msg1169003#msg1169003 date=1283422232]
it would've taken rafa a lot more in 2009 to sign el-hadji diouf than the £10m houllier spent in 2002. probably as much as the £20m he wasted on aquilani, i'd suggest.
Click to expand...

No it wouldn't. He was a virtual unknown playing for a shit team in France and not scoring many goals. He wouldn't be worth £10.5m now.
[/quote]

He was African player of the year in 2001 and 2002, and a star of the 2002 WC.
[/quote]

and I for one was clamouring for us to sign him..................

regards
 
I did read your post, but it sounds like an incredibly simplistic attempt to justify the buying of shit players at incredible prices.

Does that suit you better, peter?
 
He was African player of the year in 2001 and 2002, and a star of the 2002 WC.
Click to expand...

African player of the year? So fucking what? In the year he won it, fucking Papa Bouba Diop came second and that useless fat cunt Mido came third.

And we secured his transfer before he was a "star" in the 2002 WC. In which he - surprise! - scored precisely no goals.

Next.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=41729.msg1169003#msg1169003 date=1283422232]
it would've taken rafa a lot more in 2009 to sign el-hadji diouf than the £10m houllier spent in 2002. probably as much as the £20m he wasted on aquilani, i'd suggest.
Click to expand...

No it wouldn't. He was a virtual unknown playing for a shit team in France and not scoring many goals. He wouldn't be worth £10.5m now.
[/quote]

sunderland just bought one.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=41729.msg1169009#msg1169009 date=1283422904]
He was African player of the year in 2001 and 2002, and a star of the 2002 WC.
Click to expand...

African player of the year? So fucking what? In the year he won it, fucking Papa Bouba Diop came second and that useless fat cunt Mido came third.

And we secured his transfer before he was a "star" in the 2002 WC. In which he - surprise! - scored precisely no goals.

Next.
[/quote]

All I'm trying to say is that I don't think he was a virtual unknown, which is what you called him.
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=41729.msg1169007#msg1169007 date=1283422887]
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=41729.msg1169004#msg1169004 date=1283422526]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=41729.msg1169003#msg1169003 date=1283422232]
it would've taken rafa a lot more in 2009 to sign el-hadji diouf than the £10m houllier spent in 2002. probably as much as the £20m he wasted on aquilani, i'd suggest.
Click to expand...

No it wouldn't. He was a virtual unknown playing for a shit team in France and not scoring many goals. He wouldn't be worth £10.5m now.
[/quote]

He was African player of the year in 2001 and 2002, and a star of the 2002 WC.
[/quote]

and I for one was clamouring for us to sign him..................

regards
[/quote]

Really?

I can remember such a feeling of dread when we were first linked with him.

Then again I was ecstatic when we signed Morientes.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=41729.msg1169009#msg1169009 date=1283422904]

African player of the year? So fucking what? In the year he won it, fucking Papa Bouba Diop came second and that useless fat cunt Mido came third.

[/quote]

You forgot to add that the year before he also won the African Player of the Year beating Samuel Kuffour and Samuel Eto'o.
 
I have to say that the idea of using 'inflation' to justify shit transfers is dangerous,otherwise we might be excusing Houillier by saying that had he bought Nicky Tanner in 2001 it'd have cost 8 million instead of what was actually paid.
 
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