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next villa manager

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[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=41729.msg1168655#msg1168655 date=1283351087]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=41729.msg1168648#msg1168648 date=1283350847]
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=41729.msg1168647#msg1168647 date=1283350766]
[quote author=JimmyK link=topic=41729.msg1168627#msg1168627 date=1283349196]
Be nice to see him back in the prem but Rafa is far more popular and has left a far superior dynasty..
[/quote]

Houlier left a team that finished top 4, and a team that could compete and win the Champion League.

I think Benitez left a squad in disarray.
[/quote]

^^^
[/quote]

^^^
[/quote]

>>>
 
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=41729.msg1168647#msg1168647 date=1283350766]
[quote author=JimmyK link=topic=41729.msg1168627#msg1168627 date=1283349196]
Be nice to see him back in the prem but Rafa is far more popular and has left a far superior dynasty..
[/quote]

Houlier left a team that finished top 4, and a team that could compete and win the Champion League.

I think Benitez left a squad in disarray.
[/quote]

Its Jose Mourinho!
 
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=41729.msg1168655#msg1168655 date=1283351087]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=41729.msg1168648#msg1168648 date=1283350847]
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=41729.msg1168647#msg1168647 date=1283350766]
[quote author=JimmyK link=topic=41729.msg1168627#msg1168627 date=1283349196]
Be nice to see him back in the prem but Rafa is far more popular and has left a far superior dynasty..
[/quote]

Houlier left a team that finished top 4, and a team that could compete and win the Champion League.

I think Benitez left a squad in disarray.
[/quote]

^^^
[/quote]

^^^
[/quote]

I think Benitez left a league more competitive than when GH was in charge, was constantly working with more problems above him, left with a better managerial reputation than GH, and left the club a better first team.
 
[quote author=Stulikesdrums link=topic=41729.msg1168552#msg1168552 date=1283342114]
He's in his sixties now, right?
Not a long term appointment but a good steady hand for them.
[/quote]


Sounds familiar 😛
 
[quote author=vikas link=topic=41729.msg1168668#msg1168668 date=1283352896]
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=41729.msg1168655#msg1168655 date=1283351087]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=41729.msg1168648#msg1168648 date=1283350847]
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=41729.msg1168647#msg1168647 date=1283350766]
[quote author=JimmyK link=topic=41729.msg1168627#msg1168627 date=1283349196]
Be nice to see him back in the prem but Rafa is far more popular and has left a far superior dynasty..
[/quote]

Houlier left a team that finished top 4, and a team that could compete and win the Champion League.

I think Benitez left a squad in disarray.
[/quote]

^^^
[/quote]

^^^
[/quote]

I think Benitez left a league more competitive than when GH was in charge, was constantly working with more problems above him, left with a better managerial reputation than GH, and left the club a better first team.
[/quote]Are you counting Yossi, Mascherano and Riera as part of that first team? Because they were as good as gone.
By tye same token Owen was gone when Rafa took over.
 
I just think GH lost it a bit mentally after his illness. much as the footy was dire to watch I bear him no malice
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=41729.msg1168682#msg1168682 date=1283354685]
I just think GH lost it a bit mentally after his illness. much as the footy was dire to watch I bear him no malice
[/quote]

there does seem to be a 'BI' (before illness) and 'AI' (after illness) aspect to GH's reign as manager, having said that liverpool did finish second in the league on gh's return.
 
Thanks for inventing those abbreviations Neil, it'll really help speed up discussions about Houllier's illness
 
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=41729.msg1168688#msg1168688 date=1283355287]
Thanks for inventing those abbreviations Neil, it'll really help speed up discussions about Houllier's illness
[/quote]

no problem 🙂
 
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=41729.msg1168688#msg1168688 date=1283355287]
Thanks for inventing those abbreviations Neil, it'll really help speed up discussions about Houllier's illness
[/quote]Ha.
 
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=41729.msg1168643#msg1168643 date=1283350361]
I don't think that there's any question Benitez left a superior dynasty, the issue is that the owners amplified the cost of very similar failure in one case, and didn't in the other. The ruin our club is in now is primarily the work of finance.
[/quote]

Agreed.
 
Houllier would be about the best possible manager they could appoint.

Perhaps McDonald would agree to be his assistant. Nice Liverpool link, and some Villa continuity.
 
[quote author=Wilko link=topic=41729.msg1168664#msg1168664 date=1283352050]
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=41729.msg1168655#msg1168655 date=1283351087]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=41729.msg1168648#msg1168648 date=1283350847]
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=41729.msg1168647#msg1168647 date=1283350766]
[quote author=JimmyK link=topic=41729.msg1168627#msg1168627 date=1283349196]
Be nice to see him back in the prem but Rafa is far more popular and has left a far superior dynasty..
[/quote]

Houlier left a team that finished top 4, and a team that could compete and win the Champion League.

I think Benitez left a squad in disarray.
[/quote]

^^^


^^^
[/quote]

^^^
[/quote]

>>>
[/quote]

^^^
But we have been here before so lets not bother


regards
 
Houllier finished 4th with 60pts in his last season. Rafa finished with 63pts in a more competitive league with the 4th placed team accumulating 70pts.

People are going for Houllier just because they like him more.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=41729.msg1168807#msg1168807 date=1283370376]
Houllier finished 4th with 60pts in his last season. Rafa finished with 63pts in a more competitive league with the 4th placed team accumulating 70pts.

People are going for Houllier just because they like him more.
[/quote]

Yeah. 7th place is deffo better than coming 4th.

*belms*
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=41729.msg1168808#msg1168808 date=1283370503]
Yeah. 7th place is deffo better than coming 4th.

*belms*
[/quote]

Yeah, purposely missing the point is deffo better than trying to counter it.

*belms*
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=41729.msg1168809#msg1168809 date=1283370615]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=41729.msg1168808#msg1168808 date=1283370503]
Yeah. 7th place is deffo better than coming 4th.

*belms*
[/quote]

Yeah, purposely missing the point is deffo better than trying to counter it.

*belms*
[/quote]

There's no point to miss. Who gives a FUCK what points you finish up with. Where you finish in the league is all that counts, ever.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=41729.msg1168810#msg1168810 date=1283370671]
There's no point to miss. Who gives a FUCK what points you finish up with. Where you finish in the league is all that counts, ever.
[/quote]

With no consideration to the obstacles being faced in achieving that all important league finish?

Come on.

And given that this was in response into the the team left behind by either manager, well Rafa's team accumulated more points in a more competitive league. How is this possible if Houllier left behind a CL winning team whereas Rafa left behind a mess of a team?
 
Who says the league is more competitive?

There are a lot of embarrassing thrashings being dished out for a league that has become more competitive.
 
Well, that's my opinion. Feel free to argue against it.

So far those thrashings haven't followed a predictable pattern. Blackpool thrashed Wigan and then got thrashed by Arsenal. Newcastle got soundly beaten by Utd only to then go on and destroy Villa. We got well beaten by City only to see Sunderland sneak past them a week later.
 
And even if you successfully argue that the the 03/04 league was a little more competitive than it is now, it doesn't account for one team being CL contenders and the other a mess.
 
I'm not so sure. I can see your point but I remember Houllier having to deal with big spending Leeds and Newcastle teams, the start of the Chelsea era and an Arsenal team that was actually winning stuff.

Man Utd were also big spenders back then, perhaps more than now (back then they were buying 30 million players every year it seemed).

Houllier seems to have lad a lot less money to spend than Rafa and although he left us some turkeys like Traore, Rafa left us some turkeys too and they cost a lot more.

As for legacy, Houllier left behind a first team where he'd either bought or brought through Riise, Hyypia, Carragher, Finnan, Gerrard, Hamman. How I wish that was our back four and midfield this season!
 
I suppose I was largely referring to the quality of the top 8 overall now and I think the challenge of seeing off Villa, Spurs, City and to a lesser degree Everton is greater than the one posed by Leeds and Newcastle back then. Maybe I'm in the minority here, I don't know.

As for the last bit, I'd take that first choice defence and midfield back as well.

I just think that the comment made by kingjulian was extremely unfair on Rafa.
 
There really isn't much in it with regards to their legacies and it's not hard to argue for either way.

Ged left the components of a truly great defense but it became fully operational under Rafa. In the last season under Ged, it was just as bad as the defense of last season conceding more goals.

Rafa left Old Uncle Roy Stevie and Torres, the most prolific strike partnership in the league, and Reina the best goalkeeper. However, Old Uncle Roy had to entirely rebuild the central midfield he inherited to allow that strike partnership to continue.

Both left a lot of our top players disillusioned with our club but at least Rafa had managed to tie most of his to long contracts.

Both left squads which lacked any real depth.

Rafa left some very good youth prospects but Ged left none.

Ged left Rafa the chance to win the Champions League and the money that came from qualifying for it to rebuild the team.
 
[quote author=Tinto link=topic=41729.msg1168846#msg1168846 date=1283374458]
There really isn't much in it with regards to their legacies and it's not hard to argue for either way.

Ged left the components of a truly great defense but it became fully operational under Rafa. In the last season under Ged, it was just as bad as the defense of last season conceding more goals.

Rafa left Old Uncle Roy Stevie and Torres, the most prolific strike partnership in the league, and Reina the best goalkeeper. However, Old Uncle Roy had to entirely rebuild the central midfield he inherited to allow that strike partnership to continue.

Both left a lot of our top players disillusioned with our club but at least Rafa had managed to tie most of his to long contracts.

Both left squads which lacked any real depth.

Rafa left some very good youth prospects but Ged left none.

Ged left Rafa the chance to win the Champions League and the money that came from qualifying for it to rebuild the team.
[/quote]

That seems like a fair assessment to me.
 
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=41729.msg1168828#msg1168828 date=1283372230]

Houllier seems to have lad a lot less money to spend than Rafa and although he left us some turkeys like Traore, Rafa left us some turkeys too and they cost a lot more.

[/quote]

True that but it can also be said there was a lot less lunacy in the transfer markets back then
 
Although Rafa followed Ged, the league is hugely different these days. During Ged's years Chelsea were not really a force so it was only Utd and Arsenal that offered huge competition. Sure, the Geordies and Leeds splashed some cash for a short time, but nothing like what Chelsea and latterly City have been doing.

Rafa was allowed 1st choice signings for maybe 2 of his 5 years. He wheeled and dealed and yeah, he bought some shit, but I much preferred the way we shipped straight back out. Ged would loan them out back to France and several years later we'd absolutely nothing back for them.

He also truly fucked up by letting Anelka go and replacing him with Diouf, and for massively under using Jari. Whe you look at the fuck ups Rafa made, probably Keane and Aqua come to mind. Neither will rival Diouf for me.

Overall, Ged may have been a nice bloke, but Rafa gave me some pride back. Maybe it's because I live in Spain - they all know all about Liverpool here.
 
The League isn't more competitive now, it just suits us to say that as we came 7th.

In fact a higher points total in coming 7th than 4th points to more shit teams in the League, and more points to be had, surely?

Houllier's legacy was a CL place & a team capable of winning it. Benitez' legacy is 7th, players wanting away & squad disharmony.

I'm not discounting who actually won the thing in 2005, and our increased financial constraints, but seeing as we are discussing 'legacy', its not really debatable.

Anyway, I just read Curbishley.
 
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