Quick maffs
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Quick maffs
5th place and a League Cup would be hugely disappointing.
Although with United, Spurs, City, Chelsea and maybe even an outlier like Arsenal (haha) or someone even less expected, then Top 4 is going to be an achievement in itself.
I suppose.
Although with United, Spurs, City, Chelsea and maybe even an outlier like Arsenal (haha) or someone even less expected, then Top 4 is going to be an achievement in itself.
I suppose.
With the money Klopp spent in the summer, that's a disaster of a season.
And reaching the CL final doesn't? They know they are now one of the best teams in Europe. That. In terms of confidence, is far more valuable than winning the now devalued LC or even FAC.
I love any cup win and unless it is because of v important or hard fixtures immediately after I want to see key players starting with only select rotation of fringe players. Against Chelsea i see why we will need to rotate with big league game vs Chelsea and PSG game coming up.
It's the wrong mindset. Getting to finals means fuck all. Best placed loser means nothing
No it just cemented our reputation of being shit in finals and lacking that winning mentality.
Wrong. Getting to the final of the world's greatest cup competition raises the club profile with its huge global audience and for players it's one rung from their zenith.
What bollocks. 90% of the world don't care about that (and that's more a perception of Klopp, than LFC, that rival fans play on).
Also, you have to actually get to the final if you want to win it, and the more finals you get to, the more consistently you are performing at a high level as a team, and the more chance you have of (eventually) winning.
Beaten CL finalists is meaningless in the context of actually winning the CL, but it's better than being CL quarter-finalists.
OK, it is all about trophies, and winning, and OK, Klopp's record as a finalist is fucking absymal here and in Germany, but again, it's not really fair to dismiss entirely the merits of getting there in the first place. And he can't lose them all. I hope.
Okay, how come there was more optimism around us than the Mancs before the start of the season?
After all they finished second last season and have won two trophies in the previous one?
Surely, it should be us Liverpool fans being all depressed and sad (another final lost!) and the United fans looking forward to the new season with optimism?
Our style of football, our transfers, our manager, and our trajectory are all positive, whilst theirs are all negative. The scum might have been above us, but everyone knows they're on the way down, and will shortly be passing us as we head the other way.
Agreed. Fingers crossed we can win something this season. Need to get that monkey off our back. Just saying that no one remember those that come second. I only found out the other week that Leeds United could have beaten us to winning a European Cup by two years but thankfully lost in the final.
I'm not talking about audiences and profile. I'm talking psychology of the players. Perennial losing might sink in to their behaviours. It's how spurs are seen as chokers. Over the last decade we definitely have been
Because they very clearly have been shite and they've not brought anyone to improve their side. We can see were on the up, whereas they think they're on the down under mourinho. Hardly rocket science.
It's measured in the trophies that mean something, i.e.the league title and the Champions League. Domestic cup trophies are nice enough if they arrive, but no more than the icing on the cake.
Paradoxically, I agree with both viewpoints.
Of course "winning is all that really matters " and "success is measured in trophies" and all that "Liverpool Way" "second is for losers" stuff. I get that.
BUT, you can't say "success is measured in trophies" and refuse to acknowledge that not all trophies are equal measures of how good, or successful you are.
So winning the League Cup and finishing 5th or 6th is not preferable, or proof that you've had a better or more successful season than the team who came 2nd in the league and won nothing. I think we'd all agree with that.
That said, winning trophies is a nice habit and while winning the FA cup or League Cup isn't really proof of anything, if you look at who has won the League Cup in recent years, it's also pretty much the same clubs who have won other trophies and been the best sides in the country: Chelsea, City and United have all won it multiple times.
So they don't prove anything in isolation, but they're a barometer, and a good habit to get into.
Certainly - no quibble about that from me. It's only really when the sort of question you posed to Dreamy earlier is raised that any kind of issue arises, and then coming second in the league (provided we sustain that level and look to improve on it) would trump the odd FA Cup win every time AFAIC.
I hope everyone is enjoying my new polite, logical and inclusive "voice of reason" persona
Successful season and "success" don't always marry up. You can win a league cup and finish 5th, arguably not very successful season, buy we have achieved success. Winning finals, getting medals, breeds a winning atmosphere and can add a slight competitive edge. Evidenced by our last 4 finals, you can't say we have a winning mentality
So these players have played in all those finals this decade have they ? Only 2 of our current first XI started the Europa League Final (and Hendo on the bench makes three, if you consider him in what would be our first XI now). I don't believe that previous teams' performances have any effect on the mentality of the current team.
All this team remembers (IMO) is blowing everyone away on the way to an acrimonious and frankly unlucky defeat to Real Madrid (unlucky because everyone agrees we were the better team until we lost Mo and Karius fucked up the first goal) in the final of the Champions League with the whole world watching (and loving our football).
I am not sure how to properly describe it but there is a "confidence vibe" around a club which is used to winning finals which we should get back. For example, us in European knockout stages, irrespective of the opponents and the league performance, there is a quite confidence around the whole LFC community that whatever the odds, it can be overcome. That "quite confidence" is from years of outperforming in such knockout stages and its value cannot be measured.
We had that in finals also but we seem to have lost that edge the last few times. We need to get it back. I remember Carra or Hamman in an interview talking about how much 2001 experience helped in 2005.
New? I've always read your posts as though they were polite reminders and invitations to discussion even when you note that someone is a "mewling cunt" or a "headwand". I just don't think you've got it in you to be a baddy.
Not to directly disagree with that but I don't think we developed it from winning domestic Cup competitions. We developed it over the years when we were regular challengers in Europe itself, and not merely the best but actually the only way to achieve that is by consistently challenging for the title here at home.
True, in the first para, I meant to write years of outperforming in knockout stages in Europe.
But you don't need trophies to be a winner but be a winner.
I don't like the fact our aspirations are to be a Moyes club.
Frankly I'd turn that right back at you. The blueslime would have given their eye teeth for the occasional domestic pot over the years. We have far bigger fish to fry.
I think winning the tin pots is a symptom of where your club is at in terms of being a challenger in major comps. You win these pots because you have strength in depth, a seam of quality that runs well beyond a first 11. Having that gives you a great chance in the domestic cups, but of course, it is exactly this quality that divides potential champions from 'top 4'. What has held Spurs and ourselves back in the league, and what ultimately cost us in the CL final last year, is that lack of depth. So I think the whole 'culture of winning' is less important than that deep, velvety squad.
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