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Messi

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[quote author=Ryan link=topic=33810.msg877201#msg877201 date=1243489852]
Right, let's get all stupid for a second...

Who would ya take; Messi or Iniesta?
[/quote]


Because we have Gerrard, Messi would fit in better in the wide areas. But Iniesta is the better player.
 
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=33810.msg877048#msg877048 date=1243462152]
So who still thinks he doesn't deliever on the big occasion like Ronaldo.

What a great all round game from the little genius in a switched position through the middle.

For me at least the best footballer on the planet.
[/quote]


At least the best footballer? What's he at best then ?
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=33810.msg877201#msg877201 date=1243489852]
Right, let's get all stupid for a second...

Who would ya take; Messi or Iniesta?
[/quote]Iniesta. He has been my favourite non red for a couple of years.
I wouldnt trade Gerrard for anyone, but what a player Iniesta is. Last night wasnt a one off, ive watched Barca get better and better as he's come of age, and for me he is the second best player in the world after Gerrard.
Gerrard
Iniesta
Ronaldo
Messi
Rooney
Kaka
Torres
Xavi
in that order.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=33810.msg877290#msg877290 date=1243499283]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33810.msg877274#msg877274 date=1243498634]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=33810.msg877250#msg877250 date=1243497271]
Where they are now - handing out the award to the player that has won the most and / or scored the most goals.
[/quote]

Cannavaro won the Ballon d'Or in 2005 and it's obviously not going to be for his goal scoring prowess. Followed by Gerrard in second place. What I mean is that they surely compare different players from different parts of the pitch for the same award for overall best player, so surely you can compare who is best between Iniesta, Gerrard etc etc etc. Isn't that just what these awards do?
[/quote]

Heh, I knew you'd come back with Cannavaro - how many times has a defensive player won it in the last 20 years? They're almost always attacking players who have dazzled that season.

Anyways, this board is always outraged at the picks.


[/quote]

I agree mate. I was just making the point that maybe you can compare the best 'overall' player without having to compare only similar types of players.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=33810.msg877296#msg877296 date=1243499510]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=33810.msg877201#msg877201 date=1243489852]
Right, let's get all stupid for a second...

Who would ya take; Messi or Iniesta?
[/quote]Iniesta. He has been my favourite non red for a couple of years.
I wouldnt trade Gerrard for anyone, but what a player Iniesta is. Last night wasnt a one off, ive watched Barca get better and better as he's come of age, and for me he is the second best player in the world after Gerrard.
Gerrard
Iniesta
Ronaldo
Messi
Rooney
Kaka
Torres
Xavi
in that order.
[/quote]


Gerrard
Iniesta
Messi
Xavi
Torres
Kaka
wonaldo
Eto
 
honarable mention for eto'o. two CL finals and two goals. truly a big game player. again, if its a choice of him or tevez I know which one I'd rather we went for.
 
I said a while ago that he is the La Liga equivalent of Gerrard - brilliant wherever he plays (although maybe I was exaggerating his spell at fullback slightly). It's been interesting to see him mature since he broke into the side - turned into a real world class player.

I'd still take Messi though.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=33810.msg877327#msg877327 date=1243501349]
Iniesta is good but he is not better than Messi.
[/quote]I disagree. What can i tell you. Hes the epitome of what i want in a footballer.
Messi is more skillful and moderately faster, but in passing, awareness, positioning, defending...fucking everything else iniesta is better. Hes (as i said) second only to Gerrard in the world.
Imho obv.
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=33810.msg877332#msg877332 date=1243501441]
As an overall player he is.
[/quote]

is lampard a better player than torres then because he has more strings in his bow?
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=33810.msg877340#msg877340 date=1243501661]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=33810.msg877332#msg877332 date=1243501441]
As an overall player he is.
[/quote]

is lampard a better player than torres then because he has more strings in his bow?
[/quote]Thats a fucking ridiculous comparison. Iniesta quite often plays in the same position as messi but on the left. Lampard and Torres are TOTALLY different.
 
A fairer question would be is Gerrard better than Torres because he has.....

And the answer is yes.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=33810.msg877349#msg877349 date=1243502050]
A fairer question would be is Gerrard better than Torres because he has.....

And the answer is yes.
[/quote]

I just wanted to see what your definition of 'better' entails. i.e. someone that brings more to the table = better.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=33810.msg877356#msg877356 date=1243502205]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=33810.msg877349#msg877349 date=1243502050]
A fairer question would be is Gerrard better than Torres because he has.....

And the answer is yes.
[/quote]

I just wanted to see what your definition of 'better' entails. i.e. someone that brings more to the table = better.
[/quote]

But isn't that obvious. There's a difference between who has the most precocious talent and who contributes more to the team. I'd take the latter any day although the former can also be the difference between success and failure. It's a pretty loaded question.
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=33810.msg877357#msg877357 date=1243502300]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=33810.msg877356#msg877356 date=1243502205]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=33810.msg877349#msg877349 date=1243502050]
A fairer question would be is Gerrard better than Torres because he has.....

And the answer is yes.
[/quote]

I just wanted to see what your definition of 'better' entails. i.e. someone that brings more to the table = better.
[/quote]

But isn't that obvious. There's a difference between who has the most precocious talent and who contributes more to the team. I'd take the latter any day although the former can also be the difference between success and failure. It's a pretty loaded question.
[/quote]

my definition of 'better' is someone who will win you more games.
 
This was always a pretty average thread, but it has now turned into one of the worst of all time.

Well done everyone.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=33810.msg877359#msg877359 date=1243502384]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=33810.msg877357#msg877357 date=1243502300]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=33810.msg877356#msg877356 date=1243502205]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=33810.msg877349#msg877349 date=1243502050]
A fairer question would be is Gerrard better than Torres because he has.....

And the answer is yes.
[/quote]

I just wanted to see what your definition of 'better' entails. i.e. someone that brings more to the table = better.
[/quote]

But isn't that obvious. There's a difference between who has the most precocious talent and who contributes more to the team. I'd take the latter any day although the former can also be the difference between success and failure. It's a pretty loaded question.
[/quote]

my definition of 'better' is someone who will win you more games.
[/quote]

Then that will be he who contributes more to the team overall.
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=33810.msg877357#msg877357 date=1243502300]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=33810.msg877356#msg877356 date=1243502205]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=33810.msg877349#msg877349 date=1243502050]
A fairer question would be is Gerrard better than Torres because he has.....

And the answer is yes.
[/quote]

I just wanted to see what your definition of 'better' entails. i.e. someone that brings more to the table = better.
[/quote]

But isn't that obvious. There's a difference between who has the most precocious talent and who contributes more to the team. I'd take the latter any day although the former can also be the difference between success and failure. It's a pretty loaded question.
[/quote]I think that sums it up nicely. If it was a game of 1 on 1, id pick Messi all day, but Iniesta's, Gerrard's, Kaka's are immeasurably important to a team, and for me always ahead when it comes to impact, providing there isnt a significant step down in skill.
 
There have been more than a few games in which Barca have passed the ball around struggling until Messi has come up with a few bits of magic to win them the game.

I can kinda get the the tendency to view Messi as a bit one dimensional - he can be quite often and I actually didn't think he was all that last night - but he is without a doubt the star of that team and they rely on him immensely.

Iniesta is a wonderful, wonderful player and I've not been shy in raving about him either, but given the choice of who to bring to Liverpool, it really would be Messi every time.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=33810.msg877369#msg877369 date=1243502874]
There have been more than a few games in which Barca have passed the ball around struggling until Messi has come up with a few bits of magic to win them the game.

I can kinda get the the tendency to view Messi as a bit one dimensional - he can be quite often and I actually didn't think he was all that last night - but he is without a doubt the star of that team and they rely on him immensely.

Iniesta is a wonderful, wonderful player and I've not been shy in raving about him either, but given the choice of who to bring to Liverpool, it really would be Messi every time.
[/quote]

in a nut shell. when the shit is hitting the fan, messi rather than inesta is the one who is far more likely to dig them out of it. pretty much like gerrard would (dig us out of the shit) rather than torres which is why I think gerrard is liverpool's best player.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=33810.msg877369#msg877369 date=1243502874]
There have been more than a few games in which Barca have passed the ball around struggling until Messi has come up with a few bits of magic to win them the game.

I can kinda get the the tendency to view Messi as a bit one dimensional - he can be quite often and I actually didn't think he was all that last night - but he is without a doubt the star of that team and they rely on him immensely.

Iniesta is a wonderful, wonderful player and I've not been shy in raving about him either, but given the choice of who to bring to Liverpool, it really would be Messi every time.
[/quote]You're crazy man. He plays in deadlys position.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=33810.msg877373#msg877373 date=1243503082]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=33810.msg877369#msg877369 date=1243502874]
There have been more than a few games in which Barca have passed the ball around struggling until Messi has come up with a few bits of magic to win them the game.

I can kinda get the the tendency to view Messi as a bit one dimensional - he can be quite often and I actually didn't think he was all that last night - but he is without a doubt the star of that team and they rely on him immensely.

Iniesta is a wonderful, wonderful player and I've not been shy in raving about him either, but given the choice of who to bring to Liverpool, it really would be Messi every time.
[/quote]You're crazy man. He plays in deadlys position.
[/quote]

Hah! The crazy thing is that I did actually consider that after I read the post back.

Hmmm, maybe it'd have to be Iniesta after all!

It's a tough choice either way as Iniesta is certainly one of the best around.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=33810.msg877373#msg877373 date=1243503082]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=33810.msg877369#msg877369 date=1243502874]
There have been more than a few games in which Barca have passed the ball around struggling until Messi has come up with a few bits of magic to win them the game.

I can kinda get the the tendency to view Messi as a bit one dimensional - he can be quite often and I actually didn't think he was all that last night - but he is without a doubt the star of that team and they rely on him immensely.

Iniesta is a wonderful, wonderful player and I've not been shy in raving about him either, but given the choice of who to bring to Liverpool, it really would be Messi every time.
[/quote]You're crazy man. He plays in deadlys position.
[/quote]

I don't think that is a valid excuse as I've seen iniesta in forward and wide positions for barca.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=33810.msg877377#msg877377 date=1243503470]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=33810.msg877373#msg877373 date=1243503082]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=33810.msg877369#msg877369 date=1243502874]
There have been more than a few games in which Barca have passed the ball around struggling until Messi has come up with a few bits of magic to win them the game.

I can kinda get the the tendency to view Messi as a bit one dimensional - he can be quite often and I actually didn't think he was all that last night - but he is without a doubt the star of that team and they rely on him immensely.

Iniesta is a wonderful, wonderful player and I've not been shy in raving about him either, but given the choice of who to bring to Liverpool, it really would be Messi every time.
[/quote]You're crazy man. He plays in deadlys position.
[/quote]

I don't think that is a valid excuse as I've seen iniesta in forward and wide positions for barca.
[/quote]
JESUS WEPT!!!
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=33810.msg877369#msg877369 date=1243502874]
There have been more than a few games in which Barca have passed the ball around struggling until Messi has come up with a few bits of magic to win them the game.

I can kinda get the the tendency to view Messi as a bit one dimensional - he can be quite often and I actually didn't think he was all that last night - but he is without a doubt the star of that team and they rely on him immensely.

Iniesta is a wonderful, wonderful player and I've not been shy in raving about him either, but given the choice of who to bring to Liverpool, it really would be Messi every time.
[/quote]
I just did a bit of a comparison, and you are right, Messi does win more games, but there isnt much in it, and being as one played (all these games) at WF and the other at CM its still quite interesting to see there isnt a huge difference.
My point being if Iniesta played all season where Henry plays i dont think there would have been such a huge difference.
(this only includes games that one or the other affected the scoreline and i only went to christmas because i got real bored)
SANTANDER 1-1 -

Iniesta earns pen.
GIJON 6-1 -

Iniesta assist for first goal
Messi assist Iniesta goal
Iniesta assist Messi goal
Messi goal
BETIS 3-2 -

Messi assist
ESPANYOL 1-2 -

Messi goal
ATLETICO 6-1 -

Iniesta assist
Messi wins a pen
Messi goal
Iniesta Assist
ALMERIA 5-0 -

Iniesta assist
Iniesta assist
Messi assist
MALAGA 1-4 -

Messi goal
VALLADOLID 6-0 -

Messi assist
Messi assist
Iniesta assist
RECREATIVO 0-2 -

Messi goal
SEVILLE 0-3 -

Messi goal
Messi goal
MADRID - 2-0 -

Messi goal
MALLORCA 3-1 -

Iniesta goal
Iniesta assist
OSOSUNA 2-3 -

Messi assist
Iniesta assist
Messi goal
DEPORTIVO 5-0

Messi goal
NUMANCIA 4-1

Iniesta assist
Iniesta assist
Messi Goal
Messi goal...
and so it goes on and on. The one thing i did notice was how many assists Xavi and Alves have, its fucking loads.
Suffice it to say that in Henry, Eto'o, Alves, Messi, Iniesta and Xavi they have a very real threat from fucking everywhere....oh and id still take Iniesta.

-----------------------------------Reina-----------------------------------
Arbeloa------------Agger--------------------Carragher---------Insua
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------Mascherano-------------------------------
----------------Gerrard--------------------------Alonso-----------------
Kuyt--------------------------Torres-----------------------------Iniesta

Fucking lovely.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=33810.msg877427#msg877427 date=1243506575]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=33810.msg877369#msg877369 date=1243502874]
There have been more than a few games in which Barca have passed the ball around struggling until Messi has come up with a few bits of magic to win them the game.

I can kinda get the the tendency to view Messi as a bit one dimensional - he can be quite often and I actually didn't think he was all that last night - but he is without a doubt the star of that team and they rely on him immensely.

Iniesta is a wonderful, wonderful player and I've not been shy in raving about him either, but given the choice of who to bring to Liverpool, it really would be Messi every time.
[/quote]
I just did a bit of a comparison, and you are right, Messi does win more games, but there isnt much in it, and being as one played (all these games) at WF and the other at CM its still quite interesting to see there isnt a huge difference.
My point being if Iniesta played all season where Henry plays i dont think there would have been such a huge difference.
(this only includes games that one or the other affected the scoreline and i only went to christmas because i got real bored)
SANTANDER 1-1 -

Iniesta earns pen.
GIJON 6-1 -

Iniesta assist for first goal
Messi assist Iniesta goal
Iniesta assist Messi goal
Messi goal
BETIS 3-2 -

Messi assist
ESPANYOL 1-2 -

Messi goal
ATLETICO 6-1 -

Iniesta assist
Messi wins a pen
Messi goal
Iniesta Assist
ALMERIA 5-0 -

Iniesta assist
Iniesta assist
Messi assist
MALAGA 1-4 -

Messi goal
VALLADOLID 6-0 -

Messi assist
Messi assist
Iniesta assist
RECREATIVO 0-2 -

Messi goal
SEVILLE 0-3 -

Messi goal
Messi goal
MADRID - 2-0 -

Messi goal
MALLORCA 3-1 -

Iniesta goal
Iniesta assist
OSOSUNA 2-3 -

Messi assist
Iniesta assist
Messi goal
DEPORTIVO 5-0

Messi goal
NUMANCIA 4-1

Iniesta assist
Iniesta assist
Messi Goal
Messi goal...
and so it goes on and on. The one thing i did notice was how many assists Xavi and Alves have, its fucking loads.
Suffice it to say that in Henry, Eto'o, Alves, Messi, Iniesta and Xavi they have a very real threat from fucking everywhere....oh and id still take Iniesta.

-----------------------------------Reina-----------------------------------
Arbeloa------------Agger--------------------Carragher---------Insua
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------Mascherano-------------------------------
----------------Gerrard--------------------------Alonso-----------------
Kuyt--------------------------Torres-----------------------------Iniesta

Fucking lovely.
[/quote]

you say 'jesus wept' and then proceed to put inesta in a left forward position.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=33810.msg877449#msg877449 date=1243507402]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=33810.msg877427#msg877427 date=1243506575]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=33810.msg877369#msg877369 date=1243502874]
There have been more than a few games in which Barca have passed the ball around struggling until Messi has come up with a few bits of magic to win them the game.

I can kinda get the the tendency to view Messi as a bit one dimensional - he can be quite often and I actually didn't think he was all that last night - but he is without a doubt the star of that team and they rely on him immensely.

Iniesta is a wonderful, wonderful player and I've not been shy in raving about him either, but given the choice of who to bring to Liverpool, it really would be Messi every time.
[/quote]
I just did a bit of a comparison, and you are right, Messi does win more games, but there isnt much in it, and being as one played (all these games) at WF and the other at CM its still quite interesting to see there isnt a huge difference.
My point being if Iniesta played all season where Henry plays i dont think there would have been such a huge difference.
(this only includes games that one or the other affected the scoreline and i only went to christmas because i got real bored)
SANTANDER 1-1 -

Iniesta earns pen.
GIJON 6-1 -

Iniesta assist for first goal
Messi assist Iniesta goal
Iniesta assist Messi goal
Messi goal
BETIS 3-2 -

Messi assist
ESPANYOL 1-2 -

Messi goal
ATLETICO 6-1 -

Iniesta assist
Messi wins a pen
Messi goal
Iniesta Assist
ALMERIA 5-0 -

Iniesta assist
Iniesta assist
Messi assist
MALAGA 1-4 -

Messi goal
VALLADOLID 6-0 -

Messi assist
Messi assist
Iniesta assist
RECREATIVO 0-2 -

Messi goal
SEVILLE 0-3 -

Messi goal
Messi goal
MADRID - 2-0 -

Messi goal
MALLORCA 3-1 -

Iniesta goal
Iniesta assist
OSOSUNA 2-3 -

Messi assist
Iniesta assist
Messi goal
DEPORTIVO 5-0

Messi goal
NUMANCIA 4-1

Iniesta assist
Iniesta assist
Messi Goal
Messi goal...
and so it goes on and on. The one thing i did notice was how many assists Xavi and Alves have, its fucking loads.
Suffice it to say that in Henry, Eto'o, Alves, Messi, Iniesta and Xavi they have a very real threat from fucking everywhere....oh and id still take Iniesta.

-----------------------------------Reina-----------------------------------
Arbeloa------------Agger--------------------Carragher---------Insua
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------Mascherano-------------------------------
----------------Gerrard--------------------------Alonso-----------------
Kuyt--------------------------Torres-----------------------------Iniesta

Fucking lovely.
[/quote]

you say 'jesus wept' and then proceed to put inesta in a left forward position.
[/quote]

WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!?!!?!
I know full well where he plays, my comment regarding Dirk was OBVIOUSLY a joke, hence Keniget saying HA in his next post you unbearably thick annoying stat heavy gonad!
 
It's been said for a while that Iniesta needs to add more goals to his game (before that the same was said about Messi - not anymore though obviously). He acts the provider a lot, but he definitely has the ability to get on the scoresheet more often and it's something I'd like to see him improve upon.

I noticed one or two omissions in your comparison, most notably in the Espanyol game where Messi won and took a pen in the last minute to win the game, but really, if we're talking in the language of goals and assists, there is no point in making any comparisions. Iniesta's 5 goals / 10 assists simply do not stand up to Messi's 38 goals / 16 assists.

It doesn't matter though. Both are wonderful players, neither of which we'll ever get, but in hypothetical wonderland, I'd be over the moon to get either.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=33810.msg877467#msg877467 date=1243507983]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=33810.msg877449#msg877449 date=1243507402]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=33810.msg877427#msg877427 date=1243506575]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=33810.msg877369#msg877369 date=1243502874]
There have been more than a few games in which Barca have passed the ball around struggling until Messi has come up with a few bits of magic to win them the game.

I can kinda get the the tendency to view Messi as a bit one dimensional - he can be quite often and I actually didn't think he was all that last night - but he is without a doubt the star of that team and they rely on him immensely.

Iniesta is a wonderful, wonderful player and I've not been shy in raving about him either, but given the choice of who to bring to Liverpool, it really would be Messi every time.
[/quote]
I just did a bit of a comparison, and you are right, Messi does win more games, but there isnt much in it, and being as one played (all these games) at WF and the other at CM its still quite interesting to see there isnt a huge difference.
My point being if Iniesta played all season where Henry plays i dont think there would have been such a huge difference.
(this only includes games that one or the other affected the scoreline and i only went to christmas because i got real bored)
SANTANDER 1-1 -

Iniesta earns pen.
GIJON 6-1 -

Iniesta assist for first goal
Messi assist Iniesta goal
Iniesta assist Messi goal
Messi goal
BETIS 3-2 -

Messi assist
ESPANYOL 1-2 -

Messi goal
ATLETICO 6-1 -

Iniesta assist
Messi wins a pen
Messi goal
Iniesta Assist
ALMERIA 5-0 -

Iniesta assist
Iniesta assist
Messi assist
MALAGA 1-4 -

Messi goal
VALLADOLID 6-0 -

Messi assist
Messi assist
Iniesta assist
RECREATIVO 0-2 -

Messi goal
SEVILLE 0-3 -

Messi goal
Messi goal
MADRID - 2-0 -

Messi goal
MALLORCA 3-1 -

Iniesta goal
Iniesta assist
OSOSUNA 2-3 -

Messi assist
Iniesta assist
Messi goal
DEPORTIVO 5-0

Messi goal
NUMANCIA 4-1

Iniesta assist
Iniesta assist
Messi Goal
Messi goal...
and so it goes on and on. The one thing i did notice was how many assists Xavi and Alves have, its fucking loads.
Suffice it to say that in Henry, Eto'o, Alves, Messi, Iniesta and Xavi they have a very real threat from fucking everywhere....oh and id still take Iniesta.

-----------------------------------Reina-----------------------------------
Arbeloa------------Agger--------------------Carragher---------Insua
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------Mascherano-------------------------------
----------------Gerrard--------------------------Alonso-----------------
Kuyt--------------------------Torres-----------------------------Iniesta

Fucking lovely.
[/quote]

you say 'jesus wept' and then proceed to put inesta in a left forward position.
[/quote]

WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!?!!?!
I know full well where he plays, my comment regarding Dirk was OBVIOUSLY a joke, hence Keniget saying HA in his next post you unbearably thick annoying stat heavy gonad!
[/quote]

are you on your period or something? fucking hell calm down I just misread the previous post.
 
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