Mascherano vs Alonso

[Delinquent]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=34999.msg916037#msg916037 date=1249072564]
Agree about Cattermole and Noble but Pirlo, Aquilani, Xavi and even the return of Gerrard to that position have also been mentioned, while alternatives to Mascher have been conspicuous by their absence. That's partly because not all DMs are the same and he's in a class of his own in that position, but it's also to do with the fact that the penny-in-the-slot assumption that there are more DMs simply doesn't stand up.
[/quote]

Firstly, neither Pirlo or Xavi are realistic replacements for Alonso, so they can be discounted straight away. Aquilani is a different type of player, so would require us to reorganise the team, as I alluded to earlier.

As for Mascherano replacements, I couldn't really be arsed to compile earlier a list but I'll have a quick stab at it now since you're convinced there aren't any out there:

Senna
Cambiasso
L Diarra
M Diarra
Yaya Toure
Keita
Melo
Frings
Inler
De Rossi
Flamini
Gattuso
Renato
Toulalan
Tymoschuk
Albelda
Makoun
Lorik Cana

That's leaving out the likes of Essien and Mikel who are obviously unattainable, and that's based on my limited knowledge of European football (not to mention my complete lack of knowledge with regards to South American football) and lack of a scouting department. I'm not saying that all of those would be ideal but I think several of them are ready to take the step up in class, some already have. One or two if them also have a more expansive game to add to their defensive solidarity. There are more I haven't mentioned who may be waiting for that big opportunity to elevate their status. Moreover, none of these players would require us to change the way we play.

The simple fact is, defensive midfielders are not a rare breed. Not by a long shot.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

I've never heard of 4 of those players listed so i can't really comment on those.

Of the remainder at least 5-6 are over 31 years of age and the vast majority of the others are not a patch on JM. The better players listed also seem to be the older ones.

Would you really be happy if we sold Mascher and got in some of those names listed as his replacement?

 

[Delinquent]

Renato, Albelda, Gattuso, Frings and Senna are over thirty. Most of the others are relatively young, some very promising indeed. You're still missing (or ignoring) the point though.

And no, I wouldn't be happy but again, that wasn't the point, was it?

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=34999.msg916084#msg916084 date=1249079403]
Renato, Albelda, Gattuso, Frings and Senna are over thirty. Most of the others are relatively young, some very promising indeed. You're still missing (or ignoring) the point though.

Never mind. I'm through repeating myself.
[/quote]

Del I'm not missing the point. You seem to think that replacing Mascher would be easier partly due to the fact that there would be more players capable of filling his role. What you've just done with your list is name a whole bunch of players that are DM's, the problem is that many are over 31, and the vast majority of the rest are nowhere near the level of JM.

I could name a whole bunch of playmakers too, but like yours most would be either too old or simply not good enough to replace Xabi.

The point imo remains the same, it would be equally as tricky to replace JM as it will be to find someone to come in for Xabi.

 

[keniget]

As I said earlier in the thread - I view both players as untouchables and whilst I guess I may have been labelled an Alonso fanboy (or apologist, whatever term is current) over the last few months or years, I am very much a fan of Maschareno. Both players can be classed as specialists I suppose and both have very few peers... that's why the comparison is ultimately pointless because the other side will always point to the fact that proposed replacements either don't possess the same qualities or that they're nowhere near as good.

The 4-2-3-1 can still be effective with a combative midfielder (not necessarily a specialist defensive midfielder) alongside a playmaker. I'm not quite as sure that it would be the case without a good playmaker. In the big games, certainly it's a massive bonus to have a player of Masher's quality as it helps us snuff out the opposition midfield and provide a platform for our more creative types to do their thing. Against lesser opposition however, it's not always quite as beneficial as the opposition midfield is concentrated more on trying to snuff out our midfield. For example, we've seen a midfield of Masher / Lucas a couple times and it was painfully lacking in imagination and the effect was felt throughout the team.

If we're happy to change our system - fine - we have more options available to us with the likes of Sneijder et al. If not, then I don't really want to see a) another midfielder without that quality on the ball or b) a more creative midfielder with his wings clipped in a holding midfield role.

I can't think of many players that don't fall into a or b. Senna would be a fantastic alternative, but he's old and settled in Villarreal. There are one or two other options mentioned, but again - it's not really a straight fit, is it?

The player that replaces Alonso (if we continue with the 4-2-3-1) is going to be in the spotlight in a big way as he'll be expected to be highly influential in all aspects of our play on a consistent basis. I might be completely wrong, but I think that the player that'd replace Masher would be able to get away with lesser expectations... maybe unless the team plays like shit and we look vulnerable or get thrashed by a top 4 side. I don't want to demean the work of a DM because I do respect it a lot unlike some posters... but given our overall quality, defensive emphasis and work ethic, it's something that we can get away without having at times.

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=34999.msg916072#msg916072 date=1249077810]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=34999.msg916037#msg916037 date=1249072564]
Agree about Cattermole and Noble but Pirlo, Aquilani, Xavi and even the return of Gerrard to that position have also been mentioned, while alternatives to Mascher have been conspicuous by their absence. That's partly because not all DMs are the same and he's in a class of his own in that position, but it's also to do with the fact that the penny-in-the-slot assumption that there are more DMs simply doesn't stand up.
[/quote]

Firstly, neither Pirlo or Xavi are realistic replacements for Alonso, so they can be discounted straight away. Aquilani is a different type of player, so would require us to reorganise the team, as I alluded to earlier.

As for Mascherano replacements, I couldn't really be arsed to compile earlier a list but I'll have a quick stab at it now since you're convinced there aren't any out there:

Senna
Cambiasso
L Diarra
M Diarra
Yaya Toure
Keita
Melo
Frings
Inler
De Rossi
Flamini
Gattuso
Renato
Toulalan
Tymoschuk
Albelda
Makoun
Lorik Cana

That's leaving out the likes of Essien and Mikel who are obviously unattainable, and that's based on my limited knowledge of European football (not to mention my complete lack of knowledge with regards to South American football) and lack of a scouting department. I'm not saying that all of those would be ideal but I think several of them are ready to take the step up in class, some already have. One or two if them also have a more expansive game to add to their defensive solidarity. There are more I haven't mentioned who may be waiting for that big opportunity to elevate their status. Moreover, none of these players would require us to change the way we play.

The simple fact is, defensive midfielders are not a rare breed. Not by a long shot.

[/quote]Why isnt Pirlo a viable alternative?
What about Guti, Hleb, De la pena, Baraja, Arango, Ibagaza, Montolivo, Poulsen, Ambrosini, Defour etc
Im not saying any of them are as good as Xabi, but then none of the players you named are as good as Mascher. I know i know thats kind of your point. But you keep coming back to this ' we'd have to change' thing. Is that such a bad thing? 4 goals from cm last year and no trophies in 3 years......aaaaargh i cant get in to this.
*leaves*

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=34999.msg916099#msg916099 date=1249080047]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=34999.msg916072#msg916072 date=1249077810]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=34999.msg916037#msg916037 date=1249072564]
Agree about Cattermole and Noble but Pirlo, Aquilani, Xavi and even the return of Gerrard to that position have also been mentioned, while alternatives to Mascher have been conspicuous by their absence. That's partly because not all DMs are the same and he's in a class of his own in that position, but it's also to do with the fact that the penny-in-the-slot assumption that there are more DMs simply doesn't stand up.
[/quote]

Firstly, neither Pirlo or Xavi are realistic replacements for Alonso, so they can be discounted straight away. Aquilani is a different type of player, so would require us to reorganise the team, as I alluded to earlier.

As for Mascherano replacements, I couldn't really be arsed to compile earlier a list but I'll have a quick stab at it now since you're convinced there aren't any out there:

Senna
Cambiasso
L Diarra
M Diarra
Yaya Toure
Keita
Melo
Frings
Inler
De Rossi
Flamini
Gattuso
Renato
Toulalan
Tymoschuk
Albelda
Makoun
Lorik Cana

That's leaving out the likes of Essien and Mikel who are obviously unattainable, and that's based on my limited knowledge of European football (not to mention my complete lack of knowledge with regards to South American football) and lack of a scouting department. I'm not saying that all of those would be ideal but I think several of them are ready to take the step up in class, some already have. One or two if them also have a more expansive game to add to their defensive solidarity. There are more I haven't mentioned who may be waiting for that big opportunity to elevate their status. Moreover, none of these players would require us to change the way we play.

The simple fact is, defensive midfielders are not a rare breed. Not by a long shot.

[/quote]Why isnt Pirlo a viable alternative?
What about Guti, Hleb, De la pena, Baraja, Arango, Ibagaza, Montolivo, Poulsen, Ambrosini, Defour etc
Im not saying any of them are as good as Xabi, but then none of the players you named are as good as Mascher. I know i know thats kind of your point. But you keep coming back to this ' we'd have to change' thing. Is that such a bad thing? 4 goals from cm last year and no trophies in 3 years......aaaaargh i cant get in to this.
*leaves*
[/quote]

Senna, Toure and Hargreaves are all as good as Mascherano.

Liverpool supporters are fucking blinkered.

 

[HC]

I don't think there's much between Yaya and Mascherano either.

A fair of that list aren't as athletic as Mascherano but are clearly better footballers too.

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=34999.msg916103#msg916103 date=1249080225]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=34999.msg916099#msg916099 date=1249080047]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=34999.msg916072#msg916072 date=1249077810]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=34999.msg916037#msg916037 date=1249072564]
Agree about Cattermole and Noble but Pirlo, Aquilani, Xavi and even the return of Gerrard to that position have also been mentioned, while alternatives to Mascher have been conspicuous by their absence. That's partly because not all DMs are the same and he's in a class of his own in that position, but it's also to do with the fact that the penny-in-the-slot assumption that there are more DMs simply doesn't stand up.
[/quote]

Firstly, neither Pirlo or Xavi are realistic replacements for Alonso, so they can be discounted straight away. Aquilani is a different type of player, so would require us to reorganise the team, as I alluded to earlier.

As for Mascherano replacements, I couldn't really be arsed to compile earlier a list but I'll have a quick stab at it now since you're convinced there aren't any out there:

Senna
Cambiasso
L Diarra
M Diarra
Yaya Toure
Keita
Melo
Frings
Inler
De Rossi
Flamini
Gattuso
Renato
Toulalan
Tymoschuk
Albelda
Makoun
Lorik Cana

That's leaving out the likes of Essien and Mikel who are obviously unattainable, and that's based on my limited knowledge of European football (not to mention my complete lack of knowledge with regards to South American football) and lack of a scouting department. I'm not saying that all of those would be ideal but I think several of them are ready to take the step up in class, some already have. One or two if them also have a more expansive game to add to their defensive solidarity. There are more I haven't mentioned who may be waiting for that big opportunity to elevate their status. Moreover, none of these players would require us to change the way we play.

The simple fact is, defensive midfielders are not a rare breed. Not by a long shot.

[/quote]Why isnt Pirlo a viable alternative?
What about Guti, Hleb, De la pena, Baraja, Arango, Ibagaza, Montolivo, Poulsen, Ambrosini, Defour etc
Im not saying any of them are as good as Xabi, but then none of the players you named are as good as Mascher. I know i know thats kind of your point. But you keep coming back to this ' we'd have to change' thing. Is that such a bad thing? 4 goals from cm last year and no trophies in 3 years......aaaaargh i cant get in to this.
*leaves*
[/quote]

Senna, Toure and Hargreaves are all as good as Mascherano.

Liverpool supporters are fucking blinkered.
[/quote]Senna is about 40, Hargreaves is dead and Toure is as unavailable as Xavi.

 

[Delinquent]

[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=34999.msg916091#msg916091 date=1249079766]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=34999.msg916084#msg916084 date=1249079403]
Renato, Albelda, Gattuso, Frings and Senna are over thirty. Most of the others are relatively young, some very promising indeed. You're still missing (or ignoring) the point though.

Never mind. I'm through repeating myself.
[/quote]

Del I'm not missing the point. You seem to think that replacing Mascher would be easier partly due to the fact that there would be more players capable of filling his role. What you've just done with your list is name a whole bunch of players that are DM's, the problem is that many are over 31, and the vast majority of the rest are nowhere near the level of JM.

I could name a whole bunch of playmakers two, but like yours most would be either too old or simply not good enough to replace Xabi.

The point imo remains the same, it would be equally tricky to replace JM as it will be to find someone to come in for Xabi.
[/quote]

You admitted yourself that you didn't know who four of them were, yet you feel in some way qualified to talk about their qualities (or lack of them). Several of them are rising stars, and will almost certainly be moving to bigger clubs over the next couple of years. Tymoschuk already has.

I'd love to see you compile a list of (attainable) players who you think could perform Xabi's role in the team.

 

[Delinquent]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=34999.msg916115#msg916115 date=1249080439]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=34999.msg916103#msg916103 date=1249080225]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=34999.msg916099#msg916099 date=1249080047]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=34999.msg916072#msg916072 date=1249077810]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=34999.msg916037#msg916037 date=1249072564]
Agree about Cattermole and Noble but Pirlo, Aquilani, Xavi and even the return of Gerrard to that position have also been mentioned, while alternatives to Mascher have been conspicuous by their absence. That's partly because not all DMs are the same and he's in a class of his own in that position, but it's also to do with the fact that the penny-in-the-slot assumption that there are more DMs simply doesn't stand up.
[/quote]

Firstly, neither Pirlo or Xavi are realistic replacements for Alonso, so they can be discounted straight away. Aquilani is a different type of player, so would require us to reorganise the team, as I alluded to earlier.

As for Mascherano replacements, I couldn't really be arsed to compile earlier a list but I'll have a quick stab at it now since you're convinced there aren't any out there:

Senna
Cambiasso
L Diarra
M Diarra
Yaya Toure
Keita
Melo
Frings
Inler
De Rossi
Flamini
Gattuso
Renato
Toulalan
Tymoschuk
Albelda
Makoun
Lorik Cana

That's leaving out the likes of Essien and Mikel who are obviously unattainable, and that's based on my limited knowledge of European football (not to mention my complete lack of knowledge with regards to South American football) and lack of a scouting department. I'm not saying that all of those would be ideal but I think several of them are ready to take the step up in class, some already have. One or two if them also have a more expansive game to add to their defensive solidarity. There are more I haven't mentioned who may be waiting for that big opportunity to elevate their status. Moreover, none of these players would require us to change the way we play.

The simple fact is, defensive midfielders are not a rare breed. Not by a long shot.

[/quote]Why isnt Pirlo a viable alternative?
What about Guti, Hleb, De la pena, Baraja, Arango, Ibagaza, Montolivo, Poulsen, Ambrosini, Defour etc
Im not saying any of them are as good as Xabi, but then none of the players you named are as good as Mascher. I know i know thats kind of your point. But you keep coming back to this ' we'd have to change' thing. Is that such a bad thing? 4 goals from cm last year and no trophies in 3 years......aaaaargh i cant get in to this.
*leaves*
[/quote]

Senna, Toure and Hargreaves are all as good as Mascherano.

Liverpool supporters are fucking blinkered.
[/quote]Senna is about 40, Hargreaves is dead and Toure is as unavailable as Xavi.
[/quote]

The only place Masher would be likely to go is Barca. In which case we could insist that Toure was part of the deal. In the same way that we could ask that one of the Diarra's was included in the Xabi deal - if it came to it.

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=34999.msg916111#msg916111 date=1249080379]
I don't think there's much between Yaya and Mascherano either.

A fair of that list aren't as athletic as Mascherano but are clearly better footballers too.
[/quote]Yaya IS toure.

 

[HC]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=34999.msg916120#msg916120 date=1249080577]
[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=34999.msg916111#msg916111 date=1249080379]
I don't think there's much between Yaya and Mascherano either.

A fair of that list aren't as athletic as Mascherano but are clearly better footballers too.
[/quote]Yaya IS toure.
[/quote]

Are you sure?

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=34999.msg916126#msg916126 date=1249080697]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=34999.msg916120#msg916120 date=1249080577]
[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=34999.msg916111#msg916111 date=1249080379]
I don't think there's much between Yaya and Mascherano either.

A fair of that list aren't as athletic as Mascherano but are clearly better footballers too.
[/quote]Yaya IS toure.
[/quote]

Are you sure?
[/quote]100%

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=34999.msg916116#msg916116 date=1249080441]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=34999.msg916091#msg916091 date=1249079766]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=34999.msg916084#msg916084 date=1249079403]
Renato, Albelda, Gattuso, Frings and Senna are over thirty. Most of the others are relatively young, some very promising indeed. You're still missing (or ignoring) the point though.

Never mind. I'm through repeating myself.
[/quote]

Del I'm not missing the point. You seem to think that replacing Mascher would be easier partly due to the fact that there would be more players capable of filling his role. What you've just done with your list is name a whole bunch of players that are DM's, the problem is that many are over 31, and the vast majority of the rest are nowhere near the level of JM.

I could name a whole bunch of playmakers two, but like yours most would be either too old or simply not good enough to replace Xabi.

The point imo remains the same, it would be equally tricky to replace JM as it will be to find someone to come in for Xabi.
[/quote]

You admitted yourself that you didn't know who four of them were, yet you feel in some way qualified to talk about their qualities (or lack of them). Several of them are rising stars, and will almost certainly be moving to bigger clubs over the next couple of years. Tymoschuk already has.

I'd love to see you compile a list of (attainable) players who you think could perform Xabi's role in the team.
[/quote]

As i said earlier i wasn't commenting on those 4 Del, so for all i know they could all be potentially great players in the making.

If i tried to compile a list of ready made replacements for Xabi (or near on), i admit it would be a very short one, and even then i wouldn't be overly confident about how they'd do. I've never said that it will be easy to replace Alonso, it's just that to find someone to come in for Mascher will be equally as difficult.

 

[HC]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=34999.msg916132#msg916132 date=1249080905]
[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=34999.msg916126#msg916126 date=1249080697]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=34999.msg916120#msg916120 date=1249080577]
[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=34999.msg916111#msg916111 date=1249080379]
I don't think there's much between Yaya and Mascherano either.

A fair of that list aren't as athletic as Mascherano but are clearly better footballers too.
[/quote]Yaya IS toure.
[/quote]

Are you sure?
[/quote]100%
[/quote]

Maybe I was talking about the actress Yaya DaCosta?

 

[ILD]

[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=34999.msg916119#msg916119 date=1249080555]


The only place Masher would be likely to go is Barca. In which case we could insist that Toure was part of the deal. In the same way that we could ask that one of the Diarra's was included in the Xabi deal - if it came to it.
[/quote]

I wouldn't want Mo. Diarra in the deal. Don't overly rate him. Yaya is twice the player as is Lass.

 

[Delinquent]

[quote author=ILD link=topic=34999.msg916141#msg916141 date=1249081067]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=34999.msg916119#msg916119 date=1249080555]


The only place Masher would be likely to go is Barca. In which case we could insist that Toure was part of the deal. In the same way that we could ask that one of the Diarra's was included in the Xabi deal - if it came to it.
[/quote]

I wouldn't want Mo. Diarra in the deal. Don't overly rate him. Yaya is twice the player as is Lass.
[/quote]

I think M Diarra was unfortunate to pick up an injury that kept him out for most the season before last and then L Diarra came in last season and hit the ground running. He's not the first to get frozen out at Madrid. If he moves to another team I think he'll re-establish himself as a top player.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

Senna is about 40, Hargreaves is dead and Toure is as unavailable as Xavi.
[/quote]



Hargreaves isn't dead, he just can't walk.

 

[ILD]

[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=34999.msg916146#msg916146 date=1249081417]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=34999.msg916141#msg916141 date=1249081067]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=34999.msg916119#msg916119 date=1249080555]


The only place Masher would be likely to go is Barca. In which case we could insist that Toure was part of the deal. In the same way that we could ask that one of the Diarra's was included in the Xabi deal - if it came to it.
[/quote]

I wouldn't want Mo. Diarra in the deal. Don't overly rate him. Yaya is twice the player as is Lass.
[/quote]

I think M Diarra was unfortunate to pick up an injury that kept him out for most the season before last and then L Diarra came in last season and hit the ground running. He's not the first to get frozen out at Madrid. If he moves to another team I think he'll re-establish himself as a top player.
[/quote]

Maybe he will, think he needs to leave Madrid anyway and get playing time in. He didn't seem to have the composure that L. Diarra shows when on the ball though. Lass is a better player.

 

[Delinquent]

I'd tend to agree with that. I would take Lassana of the two. They did win the league with M Diarra as their defensive midfielder though. Like you say, I think he needs some playing time to rediscover his confidence.

 

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=34999.msg916136#msg916136 date=1249080971]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=34999.msg916116#msg916116 date=1249080441]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=34999.msg916091#msg916091 date=1249079766]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=34999.msg916084#msg916084 date=1249079403]
Renato, Albelda, Gattuso, Frings and Senna are over thirty. Most of the others are relatively young, some very promising indeed. You're still missing (or ignoring) the point though.

Never mind. I'm through repeating myself.
[/quote]

Del I'm not missing the point. You seem to think that replacing Mascher would be easier partly due to the fact that there would be more players capable of filling his role. What you've just done with your list is name a whole bunch of players that are DM's, the problem is that many are over 31, and the vast majority of the rest are nowhere near the level of JM.

I could name a whole bunch of playmakers two, but like yours most would be either too old or simply not good enough to replace Xabi.

The point imo remains the same, it would be equally tricky to replace JM as it will be to find someone to come in for Xabi.
[/quote]

You admitted yourself that you didn't know who four of them were, yet you feel in some way qualified to talk about their qualities (or lack of them). Several of them are rising stars, and will almost certainly be moving to bigger clubs over the next couple of years. Tymoschuk already has.

I'd love to see you compile a list of (attainable) players who you think could perform Xabi's role in the team.
[/quote]

As i said earlier i wasn't commenting on those 4 Del, so for all i know they could all be potentially great players in the making.

If i tried to compile a list of ready made replacements for Xabi (or near on), i admit it would be a very short one, and even then i wouldn't be overly confident about how they'd do. I've never said that it will be easy to replace Alonso, it's just that to find someone to come in for Mascher will be equally as difficult.
[/quote]

In a nutshell.

 

[Delinquent]

I officially give up.

 

[LarryHagman]

I'm not arsed about purely DMs. We could sell Masch for 30mil buy Flamini for 8mil and not miss a heartbeat. If/when we sell Xabi, who we gonna buy there?

If we do sell him, we need to drop Gerrard back and buy a striker/forward. That's the only way round it.

Also, Toure doesn't do it for me, I just can't see that.