He's certainly inexperienced when it comes to shopping in the 15-20M+ market as opposed to Tescos and I think that's what the issue is. Had he retained most of the United backroom staff he'd probably be in a far better position to make those calls.
Man Utd: Are they Still Dead Good?
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He's certainly inexperienced when it comes to shopping in the 15-20M+ market as opposed to Tescos and I think that's what the issue is. Had he retained most of the United backroom staff he'd probably be in a far better position to make those calls.
I think one of the other key issues is the loss of some of their coaching staff as mentioned in one of the other threads. Fergie was always fortunate that he hardly had to do any coaching it was always up to the likes of Kidd then McLaren then Quiros and recently Mulensteen. The latter two had significant influence within the players and I believe a key reason to how Utd played so it was a surprise to me when Moyes didn't keep Mulensteen. Fair enough new manager new ideas and no doubt he has his own preference in terms of trust with his own coaches but Moyes has dropped a clanger in my opinion, what's the rule? If it ain't broke don't fix it.
Modo dont be telling me not to look at the table after 3 matches when we are at the top of it.
Treat yourself to a look at the table. We're top of it.
Manchester United and David Moyes have added Ryan Giggs and Phil Neville to the first-team coaching staff, according to the official club website. However, given the unprecedented success enjoyed by United under the guidance of Ferguson and his coaches, one must ask: Has David Moyes made a mistake in changing the coaching setup so quickly?
Moyes has moved swiftly and decisively by appointing a complete new backroom staff. United playing legends Giggs, the most decorated Premier League player of all time, and Neville will join Steve Round, Jimmy Lumsden and Chris Woods in the coaching setup while Robbie Cooke will take over as chief scout.
The new group will replace Sir Alex Ferguson's stalwarts Eric Steele, Mike Phelan and Rene Meulensteen.
Phelan, Ferguson's assistant manager, and Steele had been with the Red Devils since 2008. Meulensteen had been with United since 2001. The highly respected trio were deemed as not needed at the club by Moyes.
There is no doubting that Moyes would want the final say on who his closest aides at the club would be. On the positive side, he has brought in men he worked with and trusted at Everton. On the negative side, however, he has disrupted the coaching continuity at the club.
There is a fine line between victory and defeat at the highest levels of the game.
Ferguson, during his 26 years as manager, proved a master in matters off the field as well as on it. His backroom changes were almost seamless, and as such there was never a detrimental effect to his team.
The Scot appointed Brian Kidd as assistant coach in 1991 as Archie Knox's successor. Kidd was a huge and popular success with the players. They loved his meticulous approach to the game. He also had a massive influence over United's youth system and played a significant role in setting up the system we see today.
When Kidd moved on to Blackburn Rovers in 1998, he left a growing empire. Ferguson immediately replaced him with one of the highest-rated coaches in the country, Steve McClaren.
Stu Forster/Getty Images
Ferguson and McClaren
McClaren joined United without missing a beat and helped them to three titles in a row between 1999 and 2001. The year McClaren left, Arsenal won the title. Recognizing that he needed a top-level coach as assistant, Ferguson then hired Carlos Quieroz.
The Portuguese joined United with a superb reputation as one of Europe's finest coaches. Within his first season he helped the Red Devils to yet another Premier League title. At the end of the season Quieroz departed for pastures new as head coach at Real Madrid. He would return again in 2004 and help United to another two titles.
Phelan was then appointed in 2008. Since then United have won three more Premier League titles, the point being that continuity at coaching level is just as important as continuity in management and at playing level.
The percentages between winning and losing are so slim that a slight change at coaching level can put a club back years. This summer, after winning 13 titles under a close-knit coaching regime, United have replaced almost the senior coaching team.
David Moyes has sacked a team with a proven track record, a team that have been proven to use the right methods, systems and training tools, and replaced them with a team who have never had a single success.
There is no doubting that Everton, under Moyes' management, punched above their weight. The highest they ever finished under him, however, was fourth in 2005. Yet they also finished 17th in 2004.
Everton, under Moyes, always proved a tough team to play against. They played the game under the same credo as United under Ferguson; Self-sacrifice before self-indulgence was that shared motto.
Clive Brunskill/Getty Images
David Moyes and Sir Alex Ferguson
However, Everton were always guaranteed to have trouble at one end of the season. They either started or finished very badly. This, ultimately, comes down to the manager and the coaches under his stewardship.
Now, at United, Moyes has jettisoned the tried and trusted coaches who knew exactly how to develop a team and replaced them with a team who have never enjoyed a success of any kind.
One only needs to look at Manchester City's example to see how the manager's approach can affect the team as a whole.
Manchester City won the Premier League title in the 2011-12 season. Their victory came with thanks to goal difference over United—and Sergio Aguero, of course.
Yet last season Roberto Mancini became embroiled in so many situations at City that he literally took his eye off first-team affairs. City finished a miserable 11 points behind United, as a result and the Italian was eventually sacked.
The end result of Mancini's lack of attention to the first team was a drop-off in statistical output of less than two percent from their title-winning season.
In this table, using statistics from EPL Index, one can easily see where City fell away.
EPL Index Stats
2011-12
2012-13
Goals Conceded
0.76
0.92
Ground 50/50s
50%
49%
Aerial 50/50s
54%
50%
Passing
83%
82%
Passing Forward
43%
34%
Atk Zone Passing
78%
77%
Shots on Target
48%
47%
Shot Conversion
18%
14%
Clear Cut Conversion
43%
36%
Points Per Game
2.34
2.03
The point behind this statistical analysis of Manchester City between 2011-12 and 2012-13 is that all it took was a minute statistical drop-off for City to lose their league title—badly.
David Moyes has succeeded the most prolific manager of all time—that is tough enough. Significantly, he inherited a major part of the most prolific coaching team of all time, and somehow he has decided to dispense with them.
If United lose the Premier League title next season, they will know that the foundations to that loss were planted by their manager when he decided on a quick fix instead of following his predecessors' tried and trusted methods.
Giggs and Neville may grow into top coaches and maybe even top managers someday. This season, however, United need a guy like Phelan or Meulensteen to ease the transition from Ferguson to Moyes.
While the world focuses its attention on whether Wayne Rooney will stay at OldTrafford, they might be better served at paying attention to the unheralded coaches who he might be joining.
Statistics provided by Manchester United and the Premier League
Will David Moyes rue the day he sacked Ferguson's coaching team?
Moyes has moved swiftly and decisively by appointing a complete new backroom staff. United playing legends Giggs, the most decorated Premier League player of all time, and Neville will join Steve Round, Jimmy Lumsden and Chris Woods in the coaching setup while Robbie Cooke will take over as chief scout.
The new group will replace Sir Alex Ferguson's stalwarts Eric Steele, Mike Phelan and Rene Meulensteen.
Phelan, Ferguson's assistant manager, and Steele had been with the Red Devils since 2008. Meulensteen had been with United since 2001. The highly respected trio were deemed as not needed at the club by Moyes.
There is no doubting that Moyes would want the final say on who his closest aides at the club would be. On the positive side, he has brought in men he worked with and trusted at Everton. On the negative side, however, he has disrupted the coaching continuity at the club.
There is a fine line between victory and defeat at the highest levels of the game.
Ferguson, during his 26 years as manager, proved a master in matters off the field as well as on it. His backroom changes were almost seamless, and as such there was never a detrimental effect to his team.
The Scot appointed Brian Kidd as assistant coach in 1991 as Archie Knox's successor. Kidd was a huge and popular success with the players. They loved his meticulous approach to the game. He also had a massive influence over United's youth system and played a significant role in setting up the system we see today.
When Kidd moved on to Blackburn Rovers in 1998, he left a growing empire. Ferguson immediately replaced him with one of the highest-rated coaches in the country, Steve McClaren.
Ferguson and McClaren
McClaren joined United without missing a beat and helped them to three titles in a row between 1999 and 2001. The year McClaren left, Arsenal won the title. Recognizing that he needed a top-level coach as assistant, Ferguson then hired Carlos Quieroz.
The Portuguese joined United with a superb reputation as one of Europe's finest coaches. Within his first season he helped the Red Devils to yet another Premier League title. At the end of the season Quieroz departed for pastures new as head coach at Real Madrid. He would return again in 2004 and help United to another two titles.
Phelan was then appointed in 2008. Since then United have won three more Premier League titles, the point being that continuity at coaching level is just as important as continuity in management and at playing level.
The percentages between winning and losing are so slim that a slight change at coaching level can put a club back years. This summer, after winning 13 titles under a close-knit coaching regime, United have replaced almost the senior coaching team.
David Moyes has sacked a team with a proven track record, a team that have been proven to use the right methods, systems and training tools, and replaced them with a team who have never had a single success.
There is no doubting that Everton, under Moyes' management, punched above their weight. The highest they ever finished under him, however, was fourth in 2005. Yet they also finished 17th in 2004.
Everton, under Moyes, always proved a tough team to play against. They played the game under the same credo as United under Ferguson; Self-sacrifice before self-indulgence was that shared motto.
David Moyes and Sir Alex Ferguson
However, Everton were always guaranteed to have trouble at one end of the season. They either started or finished very badly. This, ultimately, comes down to the manager and the coaches under his stewardship.
Now, at United, Moyes has jettisoned the tried and trusted coaches who knew exactly how to develop a team and replaced them with a team who have never enjoyed a success of any kind.
One only needs to look at Manchester City's example to see how the manager's approach can affect the team as a whole.
Manchester City won the Premier League title in the 2011-12 season. Their victory came with thanks to goal difference over United—and Sergio Aguero, of course.
Yet last season Roberto Mancini became embroiled in so many situations at City that he literally took his eye off first-team affairs. City finished a miserable 11 points behind United, as a result and the Italian was eventually sacked.
The end result of Mancini's lack of attention to the first team was a drop-off in statistical output of less than two percent from their title-winning season.
In this table, using statistics from EPL Index, one can easily see where City fell away.
EPL Index Stats
2011-12
2012-13
Goals Conceded
0.76
0.92
Ground 50/50s
50%
49%
Aerial 50/50s
54%
50%
Passing
83%
82%
Passing Forward
43%
34%
Atk Zone Passing
78%
77%
Shots on Target
48%
47%
Shot Conversion
18%
14%
Clear Cut Conversion
43%
36%
Points Per Game
2.34
2.03
The point behind this statistical analysis of Manchester City between 2011-12 and 2012-13 is that all it took was a minute statistical drop-off for City to lose their league title—badly.
David Moyes has succeeded the most prolific manager of all time—that is tough enough. Significantly, he inherited a major part of the most prolific coaching team of all time, and somehow he has decided to dispense with them.
If United lose the Premier League title next season, they will know that the foundations to that loss were planted by their manager when he decided on a quick fix instead of following his predecessors' tried and trusted methods.
Giggs and Neville may grow into top coaches and maybe even top managers someday. This season, however, United need a guy like Phelan or Meulensteen to ease the transition from Ferguson to Moyes.
While the world focuses its attention on whether Wayne Rooney will stay at OldTrafford, they might be better served at paying attention to the unheralded coaches who he might be joining.
Statistics provided by Manchester United and the Premier League
Will David Moyes rue the day he sacked Ferguson's coaching team?
Sadly, despite the Moyes effect, they still have too many good and experienced players to fall to far. I expect them to be in the mix at the end of the season, purely due to the residue of Ginsoak. Luckily they have a total nonce in charge now, so the tiny details that used to get them over the line will disappear. But talk of them being utter shite after just 3 league games is more fantasy than reality I reckon.
No-one has said they are utter shite. What has been said that in a game of fine margins, there is no doubt that Ferguson's influence shaded those margins in Utd's favour. And with other teams strengthening around them, things could get interesting.
He's inexperienced when it comes to Managing a title challenging side. He also has next to zero experience in Europe. As others have said it doesnt take much before you lose that winning edge.
Maybe he should have kept at least some of the coaching staff the first year.
But they will be disappointed as the managerial reins are seamlessly transferred to Rodger's trusted bootroom lieutenant, Raheem Stirling
I'd be very happy for Commolli to put himself in contention for that gig.
I would never underestimate the feeling of nervousnous and lack of leadership.
Utd have for as long as any of those members of that whole squad had Fergie to fall back on in order to be their strength in the limited times of adversity they have had. Now the man who steered the ship has gone.
Teams now come up against them with renewed vigour with the thought that we need to get into them to test their resolve, this will definitely occur now we have beaten them. If they start to show chinks in their armour then they could have a difficult season, mainly because they have never had the experience of being in a tough position and the pressure on them in that sense.
I have a weird feeling this could be a turning point for them and although not like when Busby left, I think they could fall from grace for a while.
Its our time now.... we employed the young upcoming man with the correct football ideals. If you ask me we also have a better squad for the coming few years whereas theirs has a few players who are at their peak or older who will decrease in the next couple of seasons. Along with that some young lads who are still trying to find their way as regular Utd starters.
There is every reason to think the wheels could fall off to a point.
Utd have for as long as any of those members of that whole squad had Fergie to fall back on in order to be their strength in the limited times of adversity they have had. Now the man who steered the ship has gone.
Teams now come up against them with renewed vigour with the thought that we need to get into them to test their resolve, this will definitely occur now we have beaten them. If they start to show chinks in their armour then they could have a difficult season, mainly because they have never had the experience of being in a tough position and the pressure on them in that sense.
I have a weird feeling this could be a turning point for them and although not like when Busby left, I think they could fall from grace for a while.
Its our time now.... we employed the young upcoming man with the correct football ideals. If you ask me we also have a better squad for the coming few years whereas theirs has a few players who are at their peak or older who will decrease in the next couple of seasons. Along with that some young lads who are still trying to find their way as regular Utd starters.
There is every reason to think the wheels could fall off to a point.
We should try and get Meulensteen in, now he's been sacked by Anzhi. He meant to be quality. I always try and sign the fucker on football manager but he never has it.
Manchester FC are in decline now Ferguson has left. The only question that remains is to what level they will fall. That will depend on how sharp the board are at dealing with it. Their progress will also be influenced by the huge amount of debt they are carrying which is unsustainable for ever as you cannot win for ever - it's impossible unless you're Celtic FC in the Scots league. You cannot remove a figure like Ferguson from the club and not expect an impact unless you have sustainable follow on strategy. Liverpool did with the boot room approach - and even that was doomed to fail eventually as football changed. Clearly, Manchester FC have had no such strategy and the major changes Moyes has introduced will take time to settle, if they do at all.
In the meantime we should all watch with morbid interest
In the meantime we should all watch with morbid interest
I don't care how far they fall, I'm more interested in how far we climb.
Oh alright then, I'd have a proper giggle if they didn't make the CL but that's only if we did.
Oh alright then, I'd have a proper giggle if they didn't make the CL but that's only if we did.
That debt can be wiped out in an instant. They could sell that club overnight to someone with a load of oil money, and get twice what it was worth when they acquired it. The new owners could then do what all the other oil rich owners do - wipe the debt off the books as it's a toy.
So it's early doors, but perhaps as the season progresses, we will see two to three CL spots up for grabs?
City may struggle
United may struggle
Arsenal are mortals
spurs have too many new players
Chelsea may be the only real deal?
Everton, well they are managed by yer man
Maybe this is the year we focus on ourselves? And it works
City may struggle
United may struggle
Arsenal are mortals
spurs have too many new players
Chelsea may be the only real deal?
Everton, well they are managed by yer man
Maybe this is the year we focus on ourselves? And it works
There's having good players / a great squad.
But I think everyone even Man Utd fans seem to think that is enough to get them by. Ferguson in my eyes actually transcended that club. He was Man Utd in my eyes and to be honest you cant hardly say any person is bigger than the club but Fergie is as close as you will get to that.
The fact they have altered not only him leaving but backroom staff and training staff has meant what couldve been a simpler transition has now become the most difficult of transitions.....
It certainly can go either way.
With Fergie no longer at the helm and with the effective Evertonizing of the club, the media spotlight is firmly on them. If you include the returning Mourinho and his headline-hogging antics and the Spurs-as-title-contenders bandwagon, us being on top has resisted the media glare. Any other year and the media would have made a big, unnecessary fuss out of it. Unheralded and discounted, this scenario suits us just fine as we can quietly go about our business, amassing points till the new year and being in the mix of things.
So people keep saying. Yet still it remains and still they remain unsold.
3 games; 4 points; 7th on the table; no penos for United, no sending off of opposition, no Fergie time... A sign of things to come?
Well Moyes is new, and plays a different brand of football.
But given Rosco has previously explained that managers are irrelevent, and tactics are a fad, I look forward to neither of the above things bearing any relevence, and United romping to another title come next May.
But given Rosco has previously explained that managers are irrelevent, and tactics are a fad, I look forward to neither of the above things bearing any relevence, and United romping to another title come next May.
Nooooo, silly. Ferguson was one of his convenient exceptions. So he'll be proven right whatever happens. Tut tut.
I think Moyes could do better in Europe than in the domestic game. He keeps his midfield very tight and will not select two out and out wingers. Not a million miles from Rafa's successful European tactics.
That said I do not think he will be given the chance as I can see their fans and the club hitting the panic button and asking Ferguson to come back in some kind of manner.
That said I do not think he will be given the chance as I can see their fans and the club hitting the panic button and asking Ferguson to come back in some kind of manner.
Nani has just signed a new 5 year deal...
WTF... he is so hit & miss..
UTD fans non too happy.. they wanted him gone in the Summer...
WTF... he is so hit & miss..
UTD fans non too happy.. they wanted him gone in the Summer...
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