• You may have to login or register before you can post and view our exclusive members only forums.
    To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Kuyt

Forums Unread posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
look at his production from right wing - combining his stats (ie ST + RW) allows you to paint a far more positive image.

Let's face it, Dirk and Yossi were needed when Torres/Gerrard were out or struggling with injuries on the pitch. BOTH failed to show up and that's the key issue with Liverpool. We need players who can WIN games by themselves - it's a point Ibromurph goes on about continually. Let's look at Rafa's 'attacking 6'

---------Torres-----

Riera---Gerrard--Kuyt

-----Masch---Lucas----

See the problem? 2 players can win a game by themselves ...
 
I don't disagree with the point of needing players who can win games themselves at all. Kuyt and Yossi HAVE contributed in the absence of Gerrard and Torres. It just hasn't been like last season and that's mostly thanks to a largely inept central midfield and a shaky defence.

Replace Riera (and Lucas, of course) in that a line-up with a player of the caliber of Gerrard and Torres and you'll find that Kuyt/Yossi are good enough for the right wing.
 
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=37968.msg1016817#msg1016817 date=1261141066]
I don't disagree with the point of needing players who can win games themselves at all. Kuyt and Yossi HAVE contributed in the absence of Gerrard and Torres. It just hasn't been like last season and that's mostly thanks to a largely inept central midfield and a shaky defence.

Replace Riera (and Lucas, of course) in that a line-up with a player of the caliber of Gerrard and Torres and you'll find that Kuyt/Yossi are good enough for the right wing.
[/quote]

I don't think Kuyt or Yossi did enough (goals/assists) without the Gerrard & Torres combo. In fact, had they, we probably would still have a 'sniff' of the title.

Wrt the last sentence, I concur but I cannot see it happening.
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=37968.msg1016807#msg1016807 date=1261140450]
look at his production from right wing - combining his stats (ie ST + RW) allows you to paint a far more positive image.

Let's face it, Dirk and Yossi were needed when Torres/Gerrard were out or struggling with injuries on the pitch. BOTH failed to show up and that's the key issue with Liverpool. We need players who can WIN games by themselves - it's a point Ibromurph goes on about continually. Let's look at Rafa's 'attacking 6'

---------Torres-----

Riera---Gerrard--Kuyt

-----Masch---Lucas----

See the problem? 2 players can win a game by themselves ...
[/quote]

I think you're still totally missing the point LTW.

Yeah we need another match winner or two, (how many reliable match winners do United have?), but Yossi and Kuyt are more than worth their place as valuable contributors. The team itself has suffered as a unit, everyone knows the midfield two has been wrong and has contributed significantly to our downfall.

Ok, you've listed those 5, Torres and Gerrard are who they are, Kuyt and Yossi have contributed (it's only December, their stats will still read very favourably at the end of the season) and Masher and Lucas' are poor, granted no one's really looking to a DM for goals, but when you've got two essentially doing the same thing and producing nothing in the final third in terms of direct threat, it's a huge factor.

If we had at least one more match winner between the quality of Kuyt and Torres, then Kuyt and Yossi's contributions towards that wouldn't even be an issue.

Tree, barking, wrong.
 
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=37968.msg1016817#msg1016817 date=1261141066]
I don't disagree with the point of needing players who can win games themselves at all. Kuyt and Yossi HAVE contributed in the absence of Gerrard and Torres. It just hasn't been like last season and that's mostly thanks to a largely inept central midfield and a shaky defence.

Replace Riera (and Lucas, of course) in that a line-up with a player of the caliber of Gerrard and Torres and you'll find that Kuyt/Yossi are good enough for the right wing.
[/quote]

What you're effectively saying here, is that if we had 4 world class attacking players (along with a world class defensive midfielder in Mascher) we'd be able to 'carry' Kuyt?

Kuyt, should not be a starting player at Liverpool if we have ambitions for the title (have Chelsea got an equivalent in their starting 11? Have United?).. whatever way you dress it up, he's a squad player at best (or at least should be). I also think Benayoun (who is gash on the left) has a better claim for a starting midfielder than Dirk.
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=37968.msg1016828#msg1016828 date=1261141633]
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=37968.msg1016817#msg1016817 date=1261141066]
I don't disagree with the point of needing players who can win games themselves at all. Kuyt and Yossi HAVE contributed in the absence of Gerrard and Torres. It just hasn't been like last season and that's mostly thanks to a largely inept central midfield and a shaky defence.

Replace Riera (and Lucas, of course) in that a line-up with a player of the caliber of Gerrard and Torres and you'll find that Kuyt/Yossi are good enough for the right wing.
[/quote]

I don't think Kuyt or Yossi did enough (goals/assists) without the Gerrard & Torres combo. In fact, had they, we probably would still have a 'sniff' of the title.

Wrt the last sentence, I concur but I cannot see it happening.
[/quote]

Kuyt has 5 goals and 2 assists.
Yossi has 6 goals and 4 assists.

Whether that's enough or not is debatable. If you look purely at our goals scored columnn this season, we haven't done that badly. Rather, being consistently shit in midfield and defending calamitously has been the reason for our disaster of a season.

I agree with your point of needing better individual players, but I don't think it should be at the expense of either of these two. They're good enough to be rotated in the first team regularly.
 
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=37968.msg1016834#msg1016834 date=1261142011]
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=37968.msg1016817#msg1016817 date=1261141066]
I don't disagree with the point of needing players who can win games themselves at all. Kuyt and Yossi HAVE contributed in the absence of Gerrard and Torres. It just hasn't been like last season and that's mostly thanks to a largely inept central midfield and a shaky defence.

Replace Riera (and Lucas, of course) in that a line-up with a player of the caliber of Gerrard and Torres and you'll find that Kuyt/Yossi are good enough for the right wing.
[/quote]

What you're effectively saying here, is that if we had 4 world class attacking players (along with a world class defensive midfielder in Mascher) we'd be able to 'carry' Kuyt?

Kuyt, should not be a starting player at Liverpool if we have ambitions for the title (have Chelsea got an equivalent in their starting 11? Have United?).. whatever way you dress it up, he's a squad player at best (or at least should be). I also think Benayoun (who is gash on the left) has a better claim for a starting midfielder than Dirk.
[/quote]

Why's it seen as 'carrying'. Both Kuyt and Yossi produced last season, and if you look at the stats above, they've produced at a decent clip this season as well.

And the Mancs have Valencia and Park, and Chelsea have Malouda and Kalou as attacking players of comparable quality who get into their first team regularly.
 
but Yossi and Kuyt are more than worth their place as valuable contributors
Click to expand...

Mark, I've said that all along but I would rather they were valuable contributors coming off the bench than relied upon as they have been this season ... They've both come up short, though we can probably find blame (and I'd lean to agreeing too) on our defensive unit. We'll discuss later ole chap - I'm off. May they both score hattricks tomorrow!

Dmishra - Malouda/Valencia are both better wingers than Yossi/Kuyt.
 
Purely as wingers, they have more pace and offer more width. But they're quite inconsistent and frustrating as well. In terms of attacking production, they're perfectly comparable to Kuyt and Yossi.
 
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=37968.msg1016842#msg1016842 date=1261143039]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=37968.msg1016834#msg1016834 date=1261142011]
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=37968.msg1016817#msg1016817 date=1261141066]
I don't disagree with the point of needing players who can win games themselves at all. Kuyt and Yossi HAVE contributed in the absence of Gerrard and Torres. It just hasn't been like last season and that's mostly thanks to a largely inept central midfield and a shaky defence.

Replace Riera (and Lucas, of course) in that a line-up with a player of the caliber of Gerrard and Torres and you'll find that Kuyt/Yossi are good enough for the right wing.
[/quote]

What you're effectively saying here, is that if we had 4 world class attacking players (along with a world class defensive midfielder in Mascher) we'd be able to 'carry' Kuyt?

Kuyt, should not be a starting player at Liverpool if we have ambitions for the title (have Chelsea got an equivalent in their starting 11? Have United?).. whatever way you dress it up, he's a squad player at best (or at least should be). I also think Benayoun (who is gash on the left) has a better claim for a starting midfielder than Dirk.
[/quote]

Why's it seen as 'carrying'. Both Kuyt and Yossi produced last season, and if you look at the stats above, they've produced at a decent clip this season as well.

And the Mancs have Valencia and Park, and Chelsea have Malouda and Kalou as attacking players of comparable quality who get into their first team regularly.
[/quote]

I like Benayoun as a player, so let's not group him together with Kuyt (who is the subject of this thread). He's possibly worthy of being a first teamer, as he showed last season when Gerrard was out.

As for the comparable players, Park is the only similar workhorse in that list, and he's not a first teamer at United.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Kuyt is not good enough to play for us. I am saying he's not good enough to be a certain starter for us. He should be rotated when our starting right winger or forwards are tired or injured.
 
Park started 30 games for United last season mate.

As for grouping Kuyt and Yossi together, I'm doing that as they're seen as the two senior attacking players after Torres. I prefer Yossi myself but I don't cringe at the sight of Kuyt in the first team either.

At any rate, we seem to be in agreement in essence.
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=37968.msg1016844#msg1016844 date=1261143182]
but Yossi and Kuyt are more than worth their place as valuable contributors
Click to expand...

Mark, I've said that all along but I would rather they were valuable contributors coming off the bench than relied upon as they have been this season ... They've both come up short, though we can probably find blame (and I'd lean to agreeing too) on our defensive unit. We'll discuss later ole chap - I'm off. May they both score hattricks tomorrow!

Dmishra - Malouda/Valencia are both better wingers than Yossi/Kuyt.
[/quote]

Malouda and Valencia might be better natural wide players, or just more natural in their roles, it doesn't make them 'better' though, and the stats back that up in terms of direct impact.

Regards them being on the bench, I don't really agree with that, my point was they could contribute well to three or four 'top' quality players, that doesn't automatically mean splinter duty. If you're getting on average 10-15 goals each from Yossi and Kuyt, and then, say, 15-20 assists between them, that's more than adequate to add to whatever Gerrard, Torres and one or two others could get between them. Just take one of Masher or Lucas out the equation and add that third consistent goal threat.
 
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=37968.msg1016853#msg1016853 date=1261143743]
Park started 30 games for United last season mate.

As for grouping Kuyt and Yossi together, I'm doing that as they're seen as the two senior attacking players after Torres. I prefer Yossi myself but I don't cringe at the sight of Kuyt in the first team either.

At any rate, we seem to be in agreement in essence.
[/quote]

The fact that they are the two senior attacking players after Torres is the whole argument. I'm saying Kuyt shouldn't be, you're saying he should (i think)?

After Torres and Gerrard, we need players of quality rather than quantity. Chelsea after Lampard and Drogba have the likes of Anelka, Joe Cole, Ballack, Deco. United behind Rooney (and Ronaldo last year) have Berbatov, Valencia, Giggs, Scholes. These are all players who probably don't run 10miles per game, but contribute more in terms of touch, skill and *outplaying* an opposing team (rather than outworking them). Simply put, having workers like Kuyt in our starting XI is part of the reason I think we don't play with any fluidity, tempo or style. You can only get away with so many workhorses. Gerrard and Torres can only win us so many games with individualism.

I don't think having workhorses as starting players will ever win us the league (as a side point, i'd rather have a workhorse in the shape of a Milner than Kuyt, but that's another argument).

Title-winning teams can't outrun teams for 38 games; You can do that in one-off cup ties, or even two-legged affairs (Kuyt's pretty good in Europe isn't he). But in the league, the cream always rises to the top and you have to outplay teams over 38games rather than outwork them. As I said, having Kuyt in the squad is good. He's a nice guy, he's a leader, he works hard and chips in with goals every now and again. But as a first teamer, no, not for me.. I don't think i'll ever feel the "Kuyt love".
 
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=37968.msg1016880#msg1016880 date=1261144985]
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=37968.msg1016853#msg1016853 date=1261143743]
Park started 30 games for United last season mate.

As for grouping Kuyt and Yossi together, I'm doing that as they're seen as the two senior attacking players after Torres. I prefer Yossi myself but I don't cringe at the sight of Kuyt in the first team either.

At any rate, we seem to be in agreement in essence.
[/quote]

The fact that they are the two senior attacking players after Torres is the whole argument. I'm saying Kuyt shouldn't be, you're saying he should (i think)?

After Torres and Gerrard, we need players of quality rather than quantity. Chelsea after Lampard and Drogba have the likes of Anelka, Joe Cole, Ballack, Deco. United behind Rooney (and Ronaldo last year) have Berbatov, Valencia, Giggs, Scholes. These are all players who probably don't run 10miles per game, but contribute more in terms of touch, skill and *outplaying* an opposing team (rather than outworking them). Simply put, having workers like Kuyt in our starting XI is part of the reason I think we don't play with any fluidity, tempo or style. You can only get away with so many workhorses. Gerrard and Torres can only win us so many games with individualism.

I don't think having workhorses as starting players will ever win us the league (as a side point, i'd rather have a workhorse in the shape of a Milner than Kuyt, but that's another argument).

Title-winning teams can't outrun teams for 38 games; You can do that in one-off cup ties, or even two-legged affairs (Kuyt's pretty good in Europe isn't he). But in the league, the cream always rises to the top and you have to outplay teams over 38games rather than outwork them. As I said, having Kuyt in the squad is good. He's a nice guy, he's a leader, he works hard and chips in with goals every now and again. But as a first teamer, no, not for me.. I don't think i'll ever feel the "Kuyt love".
[/quote]

No, I'm not saying that. In your terms, Chelsea and the Mancs have 6-7 attacking players in their squad.

Chelsea - Drogba, Anelka, Lampard, Ballack, Joe Cole, Deco, Malouda
Mancs - Rooney, Berbatov, Scholes, Giggs, Valencia, Park
Liverpool - Torres, Gerrard, Aquilani (hopefully), Riera, Kuyt, Yossi, Ngog

Replace Riera with a world-class winger and Ngog with a better back-up striker, and you'll find that Kuyt and Yossi don't look out of place there at all.
 
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=37968.msg1016891#msg1016891 date=1261145921]
No, I'm not saying that. In your terms, Chelsea and the Mancs have 6-7 attacking players in their squad.

Chelsea - Drogba, Anelka, Lampard, Ballack, Joe Cole, Deco, Malouda
Mancs - Rooney, Berbatov, Scholes, Giggs, Valencia, Park
Liverpool - Torres, Gerrard, Aquilani (hopefully), Riera, Kuyt, Yossi, Ngog

Replace Riera with a world-class winger and Ngog with a better back-up striker, and you'll find that Kuyt and Yossi don't look out of place there at all.

[/quote]

Firstly, stop mentioning Yossi. We both agree, he's a good player and can be part of the group after Gerrard and Torres.

Kuyt. We disagree. If we get 2 world class players X and Y as you say, then I presume players X and Y will replace Kuyt and Riera in our first team? Which is pretty much what i've been saying. He shouldn't be a first teamer.

As an aside, I do think he looks out of place in that list if you're looking at the first 4 players in each list (which is what we're discussing here.. players supporting the best 2 in each side). Moreover, everyone in the list for both United and Chelsea has a good first touch. Secondly, half of them have good pace. The ones that don't have good pace, have great technique or skill. Kuyt has none of these features. He works hard, chips in with goals and is a nice lad. That's about his lot.

Kuyt's only comparable in that list is Park (who actually has good technique on top of being a workhorse).
 
X and Y will replace Riera and Lucas, not Riera and Kuyt/Yossi. Aquilani is hopefully the one who can replace Lucas.

I think Kuyt/Yossi are good enough for the right. I prefer Yossi to start more often myself, but I don't have serious issues with him being rotated with Kuyt either. We'll just agree to disagree on Kuyt then.
 
This thread is quality.
Some top forumming on display here.
Different posters with different opinions, putting their side of the debate across with no insults or petty squabbling (apart from when Dossena & Rashid showed up).

Good work.
 
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=37968.msg1016891#msg1016891 date=1261145921]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=37968.msg1016880#msg1016880 date=1261144985]
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=37968.msg1016853#msg1016853 date=1261143743]
Park started 30 games for United last season mate.

As for grouping Kuyt and Yossi together, I'm doing that as they're seen as the two senior attacking players after Torres. I prefer Yossi myself but I don't cringe at the sight of Kuyt in the first team either.

At any rate, we seem to be in agreement in essence.
[/quote]

The fact that they are the two senior attacking players after Torres is the whole argument. I'm saying Kuyt shouldn't be, you're saying he should (i think)?

After Torres and Gerrard, we need players of quality rather than quantity. Chelsea after Lampard and Drogba have the likes of Anelka, Joe Cole, Ballack, Deco. United behind Rooney (and Ronaldo last year) have Berbatov, Valencia, Giggs, Scholes. These are all players who probably don't run 10miles per game, but contribute more in terms of touch, skill and *outplaying* an opposing team (rather than outworking them). Simply put, having workers like Kuyt in our starting XI is part of the reason I think we don't play with any fluidity, tempo or style. You can only get away with so many workhorses. Gerrard and Torres can only win us so many games with individualism.

I don't think having workhorses as starting players will ever win us the league (as a side point, i'd rather have a workhorse in the shape of a Milner than Kuyt, but that's another argument).

Title-winning teams can't outrun teams for 38 games; You can do that in one-off cup ties, or even two-legged affairs (Kuyt's pretty good in Europe isn't he). But in the league, the cream always rises to the top and you have to outplay teams over 38games rather than outwork them. As I said, having Kuyt in the squad is good. He's a nice guy, he's a leader, he works hard and chips in with goals every now and again. But as a first teamer, no, not for me.. I don't think i'll ever feel the "Kuyt love".
[/quote]

No, I'm not saying that. In your terms, Chelsea and the Mancs have 6-7 attacking players in their squad.

Chelsea - Drogba, Anelka, Lampard, Ballack, Joe Cole, Deco, Malouda
Mancs - Rooney, Berbatov, Scholes, Giggs, Valencia, Park
Liverpool - Torres, Gerrard, Aquilani (hopefully), Riera, Kuyt, Yossi, Ngog

Replace Riera with a world-class winger and Ngog with a better back-up striker, and you'll find that Kuyt and Yossi don't look out of place there at all.


[/quote]

I agree.

You can't buy what Dirk brings to the team. Many of the best teams to grace the English league had steady-eddie's propping up the superstars. It's all about balance. I'm not of the opinion that Dirk should be untouchable or anything, but while there are far more important problems to address in the team, he's nowhere near a priority for replacement, and is certainly good enough to be 1/11 of a title-winning team.
 
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=37968.msg1016911#msg1016911 date=1261147718]
X and Y will replace Riera and Lucas, not Riera and Kuyt/Yossi. Aquilani is hopefully the one who can replace Lucas.

I think Kuyt/Yossi are good enough for the right. I prefer Yossi to start more often myself, but I don't have serious issues with him being rotated with Kuyt either. We'll just agree to disagree on Kuyt then.
[/quote]

Fair enough. Yossi on the right I agree. Kuyt, not so much.

Moreover, I'd rather we went 2 upfront (and I mean right up front) anyway with Y being a world class striker. With Gerrard moved back, either in the centre or the right. We really shouldn't be playing one up front at home against the likes of Wigan.
 
I like Dirk as a man and as a player at times, but he doesn't deserve his untouchable status Benitez gives him. That sort of security should be the preserve of players like Gerrard and Torres.

Dirk's quite a tough player to sum up; He's a decent, productive player who works hard and is extremely efficient. He really has a knack for scoring goals in and around the box, especially in the big games in Europe when we really need it. And defensively he's a dream for any RB to play with. However he is prone to gross lapses in form and is extremely agricultural. His touch lets him down a lot and it spoils a lot of chances for him. This weakness can also break up a sweeping attacking moves and gets frustrating. He also lacks pace which we desperately need at the moment.

I've never warmed to him as some have, although that's partly Benitez's fault for his perseverance in the player. But he deserves to play a role at a big club like Liverpool and to play in one of the finest attacking international teams.
 
There's a reason why Dirk Kuyt is a Dutch International and plays for Liverpool, it's because he's good.

On occasion he has bad form, whoop.de.fookin.doo. Get off his back.
 
yes a regular dutch international might i add who gets in the first 11 on most occasions ahead of several players that people rate highly
 
[quote author=Stu link=topic=37968.msg1016912#msg1016912 date=1261147904]
This thread is quality.
Some top forumming on display here.
Different posters with different opinions, putting their side of the debate across with no insults or petty squabbling (apart from when Dossena & Rashid showed up).

Good work.
[/quote]

I know that probably needed to be said Stu but really it is like praising someone for not robbing a bank or mugging somebody.
This is the way forum life should be all the time, not as a noteworthy exception.
 
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=37968.msg1016947#msg1016947 date=1261152347]
There's a reason why Dirk Kuyt is a Dutch International and plays for Liverpool, it's because he's good.

On occasion he has bad form, whoop.de.fookin.doo. Get off his back.
[/quote]
Explain Babel then..
 
Spion,

The argument is moot cos the same could be applied to Babel and Jan Krompkamp, yet they're shite.

I like Kuyt, but we've had enough shit international players, playing for in the past and present.

Enough of the insult, thank you.
 
Kuyt was great the last part of last season and in a couple of other seasons... the problem I have is that he is absolutely dogshit, a passenger for 3or 4 months a season usually coinciding with the team playing crap. For a guy who "works his bollocks off" he couldn't be any less inspiring to his team mates.

So in essence, he has done great in parts and done shit in parts, which means he is a player that isn't consistent enough to be a regular starter. But he is a Rafa favourite, like Heskey was to Houllier - the day Kuyt leaves will probably mean Rafa is about to go... much like Heskey and Houllier.

In conclusion Kuyt should be a squad player or a firm teamer that is often rested when in bad form... however, he isn't... he is one of the untouchables like Torres, Reina, Carragher and Gerrard which he simply hasn't deserved.
 
[quote author=Rashid link=topic=37968.msg1017213#msg1017213 date=1261214299]
Kuyt was great the last part of last season and in a couple of other seasons... the problem I have is that he is absolutely dogshit, a passenger for 3or 4 months a season usually coinciding with the team playing crap. For a guy who "works his bollocks off" he couldn't be any less inspiring to his team mates.

So in essence, he has done great in parts and done shit in parts, which means he is a player that isn't consistent enough to be a regular starter. But he is a Rafa favourite, like Heskey was to Houllier - the day Kuyt leaves will probably mean Rafa is about to go... much like Heskey and Houllier.

In conclusion Kuyt should be a squad player or a firm teamer that is often rested when in bad form... however, he isn't... he is one of the untouchables like Torres, Reina, Carragher and Gerrard which he simply hasn't deserved.
[/quote]

Worst post ever.
 
[quote author=dossena link=topic=37968.msg1017173#msg1017173 date=1261180606]
Spion,

The argument is moot cos the same could be applied to Babel and Jan Krompkamp, yet they're shite.

I like Kuyt, but we've had enough shit international players, playing for in the past and present.

Enough of the insult, thank you.
[/quote]

Your posts are shite.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Stevesquash
    • Love
Captain Konate?
Replies
22
Views
623
Hansern
Hansern
Judge Jules
    • Like
    • Blow
  • Locked
Ron Yeats RIP
Replies
5
Views
166
doctor_mac
doctor_mac
singlerider
    • Like
  • Locked
  • Poll Poll
First true test of Slot's mettle?
Replies
25
Views
692
Woland
Woland
dee
  • Locked
Who will be the challengers?
Replies
14
Views
512
moron
moron
Squiggles
    • Like
  • Locked
05/10/2024 - Weeks Other Games Thread
2 3
Replies
60
Views
1K
rubans
rubans
Back
Top Bottom