It would be a giant step alright, in the completely wrong direction.
Modo must be kidding here, surely..
Klopp
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Modo must be kidding here, surely..
He'd be at the very bottom of my list, just above Woy and Rodgers and Evans and Houllier and Evans/Houllier.
Don't get me wrong I do have a lot of time for Rafa, and I mostly liked him when he was around but he's like the anti-Klopp in terms of attacking-mindedness and I would hate few things more than having to watch us play as cautiously and defensively as we did back then. For me there's just a gulf apart between the two, in both approach and talent.
And how to sign 48 goalkeepers and how to stick a 6 ft 7 striker on the wing.
Klopp does have questions to answer about the defence, but anyone seriously considering replacing him - with anybody - at this point needs medical attention.
And in Liverpool trophies sadly.
It's a big season for Klopp and a lot of players.
I still believe in his vision but the fact we haven't addressed the defensive issues is a major negative on his scorecard
I still believe in his vision but the fact we haven't addressed the defensive issues is a major negative on his scorecard
I'm not advocating replacing him. He might well fire us to the title scoring 200 goals and conceding 100. But we can put to bed all the strategic messianic genius talk right now, because he's been found wanting.
This is my stance too as we are progressing nicely, and are also dead sexy to watch (in attack at least).
Rome wasn't build in a day, but surely anyone in their right mind can see that we are only a few quality players (3-4) away from perhaps the best squad we've ever had since the First Division was transformed into the Premier League.
Here we go again.
By the same token Klopp's taken two years to make us one of the best attacks in the league. But let's ignore that.
This. What an absurd thread, and replacing Klopp with Benitez?! I'm lost for words.
I don't think he's a strategic mastermind at all, heck, Rafa's probably even better at chess than him for all I know, but for me Klopp is a far more talented and progressive manager all-round with a far more interesting approach to the game.
He understands the need for power, energy and pace in combination with skill and grit, and he's also a bit of a maniac (in the good sense) as I really do think he's breathing football 24/7 whilst wearing his heart on his sleeve. I like that in my Liverpool manager, I like his honesty too and I even like most of his signings.
He's just a clever lad, that knows his way around a big club and my bet is he's also one that learns from his mistakes. A tactical mastermind however, he's not, but he's surely the right man for Liverpool.
In defence of Modo he is not saying that we should do that. He was replying to the question of who he would want IF Klopp left.
What he did this summer was borderline negligence. It was fucking apparent to the world we needed a centre back, but theres only one in the world so we missed out on him because we we stupid enough to tap up and get caught. If only there were dozens of other centre backs who are good and better than lovren and klavan
We needed a midfielder, And now it's a masterstroke that we've bought one 12 months in advance.
No mate.
We need one fucking now
Mo salah is thankfully a fucking marvel so our already good attack is even better. But fuck me.
This window gets worse as every week passes
We needed a midfielder, And now it's a masterstroke that we've bought one 12 months in advance.
No mate.
We need one fucking now
Mo salah is thankfully a fucking marvel so our already good attack is even better. But fuck me.
This window gets worse as every week passes
And that's just criticisms off the pitch. Tactically, a mound of smeg has more nous than him. Before the second goal last night it was obvious the midfielders were becoming leggy. Make a change, keep the high tempo. Hendo and can have been shite, bin on off.
"Nah mate, we're golden"
Fucking amateur hour
"Nah mate, we're golden"
Fucking amateur hour
This is where i am with him.
There is plenty to be critical of but the solution isn't a managerial switch
I agree with that as well, but im rapidly losing faith in his ability to pull it out the fire
Indeed, I was almost loathed to come on here and see the whining kick in again but I did choose to read the thread eh...
It is true however the defence does need to be sorted out somewhat but I personally refuse to buy into the excessive pessimism, throwing jabs at the manager is almost bizarre in my opinion and growing negativity certainly does not help us in any way.
Opinions eh... everyone has one and is entitled to do so, but then some people liked Downing...
Rafa could build a defence but he has little idea how to build an attack. The only reason we were decent in attack with him was because he had two of the best players to play for the club up top and he just left them to it.
How does a tactically naive and shit manager with only one plan, lose once to all of the top 6 teams in 2 years, with the one defeat after an early red card?
Are you saying that Klopp's plan A has been superior to all of the top team and managers' plan A B C D E F G?
The owners have been getting away with positive net spend for all of Klopp's tenure, and I think he's done an amazing job within those restrictions.
He has to sort out his defence. We know that and he knows that. But let's be more balanced here.
Honeymoon period over? He's not all that he's been made out to be? Get a grip.
Are you saying that Klopp's plan A has been superior to all of the top team and managers' plan A B C D E F G?
The owners have been getting away with positive net spend for all of Klopp's tenure, and I think he's done an amazing job within those restrictions.
He has to sort out his defence. We know that and he knows that. But let's be more balanced here.
Honeymoon period over? He's not all that he's been made out to be? Get a grip.
Bang on, couldn't agree more JM.... I'm certainly not having any difficulty enjoying supporting and watching the club or the manager at the minute and that's after 2 unsatisfying results in the space of 4 days.
Some of the flat out negativity on here at the minute is uncalled for, but then I am optimistic and I think we will do well playing attacking footy.
I'm gonna play devils advocate a bit here over Klopp.
I think first and foremost, when he came in, he wanted us to start scoring alot of goals again to win out games. Some managers address the defense first and others the attack. When he came in both were a problem, he couldn't necessarily work from the back, because we were struggling for goals and needed to get that edge back quickly. Along with the ideal that he would work with what he had and would see where the dust settled and what he then needed, I can buy that. That's a fair enough approach. We were blunt and inviting pressure and by the end of Rodgers' last season and the beginning of the next, we were going clearly going to struggle because we lacked consistent firepower.
For the second Summer transfer window, people were saying he would definitely, without question, address the issues at the back. There was a notion we were scoring enough goals and we wouldn't need to do too much. I disagreed (as did a few others) and insisted we needed more in attack, and it was evident further that this was a major thought going into the new season, because we brought in Salah and Solanke, and we also went after that French lad, that fell through late in the window. So again, I don't have a problem with that, we needed depth in quality going into the Champions League.
The main issue is of course the failure to address the problems at the back. I'm starting to get a bit impatient with Matip, but I do believe he would look alot stronger if he had a more trustworthy partner alongside him and if the defense had a DM infront of them. So he gets a reprieve, I think Klavan is a poor buy, he's at the wrong end of his 20's and while his price suggests he was a stop gap, when we only have two regonised centre backs, it's fairly obvious he's going to be asked to be more than just a stop gap, he's going to get games because of injury, fatigue, suspensions etc. He's not good enough. He's like one of those types you look at for Swansea, etc, who have been Premiership ever presents for years and fairly solid in a side designed to not be relegated, ie in a more out and out defensive side he might look ok, but he'd fail to make the step up in class.
The whole argument over VVD is hugely complicated. First of all, I have sympathy with the notion that he was the number one target and Klopp didn't really want to settle for 2nd/3rd/4th best, putting another player on a long contract, whom might then drop down the pecking order a season later. I get that totally. I don't really buy that there aren't other players out there, in a World full of millions of footballers, as crass as that sounds, there are other players out there. I'm sure the forum numpties would respond with "who are they then", but it's a moot point. We have a World Class pedigree manager and what should be a top quality scouting system, who should identify players of a certain mould and standard, should we fail to grasp a particular player. It's not about lesser players as you go further down the list. Compile a list of candidates who you believe would improve the side in a certain position, and go from there. We've left ourselves chronically short, with players who've shown previously they are too inconsistent to be relied upon (Moreno, Lovren, relying on two or three kids).
As for the "system", I think the one surprising failure of Klopp so far has been a lack of a Plan B. As Brendan said, it's moot mentioning a Plan A, because we only know how to play one way. It was the same under Rodgers and it hasn't changed. In fact, systematically, I don't think we've really changed. Three upfront, three in midfield, fullbacks who play on the halfway line, centre halves who are too far apart, no organisation, no ability to grind out results and no reliable defenders. That might be harsh, but how far from the truth is it really? What difference is there between this side and the side that started from January when we signed Coutinho and Sturridge, through to when Suarez left? There's little difference really, effectively.
Klopp said a year ago this is "his" side, this isn't about the team finding it's shape and still being partway through a building process, even though defensively it seems we're still at step one, this is a team that should now be ready to cope with the rewards it's reaped from it's hardwork in getting back to being an effective force. Going into the CL this season with two partly reliable centre backs and one terrible one is a travesty, whether that's on the club, Klopp or whoever. It was a huge fuck up and there's not really any two ways about it, we got it wrong and all our hardwork getting into the CL, will have been for nothing if we bow out that competition early and fall away from the CL places in the league. We'll lose players again and have to rebuild again and we'll be going through the same, drawn out and demoralising processs we've had to endure time and time again.
Someone said the honeymoon period is over, it's an overused cliche but I can't think of any other way to describe this predicament Klopp finds himself in. It's his own doing and nothing short of a miraculous rethink in terms of setting the team up to be ready to grind out wins, will gloss over that. Our competitors are stronger this season and I don't think we can rely on the six pointers against the big teams, everyone knows how we play and how to pick us off. We might be a nightmare to defend against, but we're a dream to exploit too. That's a shoddy state of affairs.
I think first and foremost, when he came in, he wanted us to start scoring alot of goals again to win out games. Some managers address the defense first and others the attack. When he came in both were a problem, he couldn't necessarily work from the back, because we were struggling for goals and needed to get that edge back quickly. Along with the ideal that he would work with what he had and would see where the dust settled and what he then needed, I can buy that. That's a fair enough approach. We were blunt and inviting pressure and by the end of Rodgers' last season and the beginning of the next, we were going clearly going to struggle because we lacked consistent firepower.
For the second Summer transfer window, people were saying he would definitely, without question, address the issues at the back. There was a notion we were scoring enough goals and we wouldn't need to do too much. I disagreed (as did a few others) and insisted we needed more in attack, and it was evident further that this was a major thought going into the new season, because we brought in Salah and Solanke, and we also went after that French lad, that fell through late in the window. So again, I don't have a problem with that, we needed depth in quality going into the Champions League.
The main issue is of course the failure to address the problems at the back. I'm starting to get a bit impatient with Matip, but I do believe he would look alot stronger if he had a more trustworthy partner alongside him and if the defense had a DM infront of them. So he gets a reprieve, I think Klavan is a poor buy, he's at the wrong end of his 20's and while his price suggests he was a stop gap, when we only have two regonised centre backs, it's fairly obvious he's going to be asked to be more than just a stop gap, he's going to get games because of injury, fatigue, suspensions etc. He's not good enough. He's like one of those types you look at for Swansea, etc, who have been Premiership ever presents for years and fairly solid in a side designed to not be relegated, ie in a more out and out defensive side he might look ok, but he'd fail to make the step up in class.
The whole argument over VVD is hugely complicated. First of all, I have sympathy with the notion that he was the number one target and Klopp didn't really want to settle for 2nd/3rd/4th best, putting another player on a long contract, whom might then drop down the pecking order a season later. I get that totally. I don't really buy that there aren't other players out there, in a World full of millions of footballers, as crass as that sounds, there are other players out there. I'm sure the forum numpties would respond with "who are they then", but it's a moot point. We have a World Class pedigree manager and what should be a top quality scouting system, who should identify players of a certain mould and standard, should we fail to grasp a particular player. It's not about lesser players as you go further down the list. Compile a list of candidates who you believe would improve the side in a certain position, and go from there. We've left ourselves chronically short, with players who've shown previously they are too inconsistent to be relied upon (Moreno, Lovren, relying on two or three kids).
As for the "system", I think the one surprising failure of Klopp so far has been a lack of a Plan B. As Brendan said, it's moot mentioning a Plan A, because we only know how to play one way. It was the same under Rodgers and it hasn't changed. In fact, systematically, I don't think we've really changed. Three upfront, three in midfield, fullbacks who play on the halfway line, centre halves who are too far apart, no organisation, no ability to grind out results and no reliable defenders. That might be harsh, but how far from the truth is it really? What difference is there between this side and the side that started from January when we signed Coutinho and Sturridge, through to when Suarez left? There's little difference really, effectively.
Klopp said a year ago this is "his" side, this isn't about the team finding it's shape and still being partway through a building process, even though defensively it seems we're still at step one, this is a team that should now be ready to cope with the rewards it's reaped from it's hardwork in getting back to being an effective force. Going into the CL this season with two partly reliable centre backs and one terrible one is a travesty, whether that's on the club, Klopp or whoever. It was a huge fuck up and there's not really any two ways about it, we got it wrong and all our hardwork getting into the CL, will have been for nothing if we bow out that competition early and fall away from the CL places in the league. We'll lose players again and have to rebuild again and we'll be going through the same, drawn out and demoralising processs we've had to endure time and time again.
Someone said the honeymoon period is over, it's an overused cliche but I can't think of any other way to describe this predicament Klopp finds himself in. It's his own doing and nothing short of a miraculous rethink in terms of setting the team up to be ready to grind out wins, will gloss over that. Our competitors are stronger this season and I don't think we can rely on the six pointers against the big teams, everyone knows how we play and how to pick us off. We might be a nightmare to defend against, but we're a dream to exploit too. That's a shoddy state of affairs.
Thats not much of a defence mind you. Rafa clearly hasnt got what i takes anymore. Its hiring someone because of what they achieved 10 years ago.
Modo wants Lucas back in midfield and Benitez back as manager. It won't be long before he's advocating Elisha Scott in goal, Alan Hansen in defence and maybe Stevie Nicol as cover. But then he won't have anyone to hate so he'll have to bring Hendo back and the whole bitterly Nietzschean sequence will start all over again.
Great post Mark, but this overused Honeymoon over cliche has a negative weight attached to it, doesn't it. Maybe I am delusional but I like being positive because fuck it... I was 17 years old the last time we won the league so fuck it...
When Klopp was at Dortmund he clearly had better defenders to rely upon and while he has undoubtedly replenished our attack since the tragic departure of Suarez he still needs to sort that defence out, we knew it and so did he and it hasn't been done yet. I am going to hold my fire and enjoy it until I can no longer do so, I have a confident feeling that we will sort it out.
When Klopp was at Dortmund he clearly had better defenders to rely upon and while he has undoubtedly replenished our attack since the tragic departure of Suarez he still needs to sort that defence out, we knew it and so did he and it hasn't been done yet. I am going to hold my fire and enjoy it until I can no longer do so, I have a confident feeling that we will sort it out.
What good would come out from him admitting his defence is shit? Would it make the defenders feel better and more confident? No...
Throwing attacks at your own players performance is a silly move for a manager IMO, but clearly it does need looking at.
Well yeah, he is a one trick pony but surely we knew that before he arrived ?
The other big issue is there's never any mystery to how we'll approach a game, so our predictability can give opposition managers an easier time to prepare for us. But the way he has Firmino, Salah and Mane playing with support from midfield and our full backs makes it difficult to stop us anyway.
The defence has no room for error if we're to win games consistently and last night we lined up with two really error prone defenders in our back four - Moreno and Lovren.
It seems bonkers that after not featuring at all last year that Moreno is now our first choice left back ahead of Milner and Robertson.
The lack of rotation in midfield is going to bite us on the arse sooner or later but i'm assuming Oxlade Chamberlain is being eased in at present and him and Milner are going to feature more often. I suppose I am forgetting Coutinho and Lallana and they will certainly help matters.
I can't remember who it was ( dmishra or peekay is my guess) but when we signed Klopp they pointed to the defensive record - when they won things they seemed to have outlier seasons where they conceded half as many goals as usual. And given the disparity between the seasons it's impossible to give Klopp credit for good defensive years whilst ignoring the poorer ones.
The Lovren contract extension looked terrible at the time to me but surely everyone sees that now? For me thats a decision that has a wider impact and will make all future contract negotiations more difficult - and i think it probably made Can's negotiations much tougher.
I'd be much happier if we had a Zorc type calling the shots when it comes to building a squad but to be fair to Klopp his good signings outweigh his bad ones and if that trend continues we'll be fine. Provided he signs a few defenders.
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