Jordan Henderson

[Farkmaster]

Coming into the game against them, ox was in some of his best form for us, after looking inconsistent at times earlier in the season. When coutinho played against them he was a fixture in the first team, and is a better am than any of the players we now have. I think we absolutely need an in form keita, but risking spinning that wheel in this game could have been disastrous or worked, but it's certainly not definite. And shaq? He's been great, but we've largely used him in games where we will have tons of uncontested possession, and he offers nothing near the amount of steel as ox, nor is he at all as well integrated into the side as coutinho.

 

[Farkmaster]

I'm not saying it wouldn't have worked by the way, but I just don't think it's simple to point at as some obvious fix.

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

I agree with @Farkmaster about Mané being worse than Henderson. From my perspective, Mané either miscontrolled the first touch or misplaced almost every pass, relinquishing possession. He doesn’t do assists, and his finishing has become poor. I truly feel that the lack of competition for his place is a big miss.
Henderson absolutely bottled it today. He’s done as an on field leader for me. He didn’t want to take the game by the scruff - he just passed it sideways to his team mates and waved at them to play it forward. Sometimes berrating them when they did not. When we had possession, it was like playing a man down. In this type of game you need a captain that can rally that anger and belief and fire. Henderson was none of those things.
And finally, I felt that TAA was worse than Lovren. He looked scared, gassed, and out of his depth playing against Sane. Lovren essentially had to cover him too. Not saying Lovren wasn’t at fault for the first goal (he should have been more alert) but he was dealing with a scared TAA too.

 

[Dreambeliever]

At least Mane constantly showed for the ball and never hid, unlike Salah.

Ya he got crowded out a number of times but I loved his effort

 

[RedStar]

Mane has been in a bit of a slump the last couple of games. Not in terms of effort or application just in terms of things not working out for him, he seems to keep choosing the wrong option and hes snatching at chances rather than finishing them. Hes still a quality player but perhaps he needs a break. Id rest him against Wolves and play Lallana.

 

[mark1975]

I think we found out last season, that this combination doesn't always work, it can be too flat and with neither Henderson nor Gini being long ball players, Milner then drops deep to hunt for the ball, which takes him away from the roaming/tip of the triangle position. So there is no link between midfield and attack. Ideally against their DM you want to have an attacking midfielder on him AND Firmino dropping into the same pockets to double up. So for solidity you want Fabinho and either Hendo or Gini, with a creative midfielder ahead of them.

That said, for all the largely fair "water carrier" type criticisms of Henderson, before this game we'd lost NONE of the previous 26 he'd started.

 

[Frogfish]

If we have to have a culprit for tonight's game, I think the closest one would be Milner. He is the most creative out of the 3 CMs who started and it was more on him that the others to connect midfield with the attack – don't know if it was lack of fitness after the injury or other factors, but the fact is he couldn't do it.

Milner is better on the right, being right footed. Yes I know he was great at LB but that is a completely different kettle of fish than being creative in the final third. I have no idea why Klopp put him over on the left when TAA needed all the help he could get. His best performances have all come when at RM and Gini can simply play his retention/possesion game anywhere. Their positions should have been reversed.

 

[Frogfish]

The way they closed down the passing channels/options was also exceptional. Think I heard Silva covered more kms than any other player THIS SEASON in this game, which shows you just how hard they made it.

This is true. Not David Silva but Bernado Silva, to remove any doubt.

Bernardo Silva covered 13.7 kilometres (8.5 miles) against Liverpool, the most by any player in a Premier League game this season.

 

[Frogfish]

Mane has been in a bit of a slump the last couple of games. Not in terms of effort or application just in terms of things not working out for him, he seems to keep choosing the wrong option and hes snatching at chances rather than finishing them. Hes still a quality player but perhaps he needs a break. Id rest him against Wolves and play Lallana.

We seem to be taking the wrong option most of the season, and not one player but most of them, from Salah, Mane and Firmino through to the midfield. So many times the obvious, and most dangerous, option has been ignored for something obscure.
TAA had one chance today when he did beautifully to cut inside Sane (he did this a few times to good effect) and the whole midfield just opened up, City were on their heels. Salah and Firmino were already speeding on their way and all it needed was a fine pass to see one of them through on goal, instead he went across the pitch to Mane who was 10-15m behind those two, needless to say it ended up with the ball being recycled.

 

[Frogfish]

At least Mane constantly showed for the ball and never hid, unlike Salah.

Ya he got crowded out a number of times but I loved his effort

Salah didn't hide. He was constantly battling both Kompany and Laporte and still ended up 50/50 with the pair of them. Guardiola deliberately fielded two CBs there to marshall Salah, Laporte rarely ventured over the HW line.

 

[Modo]

Looked at our midfield combo's this season in our toughest games, that is League and CL games against top sides:

[bcolor=#00ff00]1-2 Spurs A[/bcolor] - Keita, Wijnaldum, Milner
[bcolor=#00ff00]3-2 PSG H[/bcolor] - Hendo, Milner, Wijnaldum
1-1 Chelsea A - Hendo, Milner, Wijnaldum
0-0 Man C H - Hendo, Milner, Wijnaldum
[bcolor=#ff0000]1-0 Napoli A[/bcolor] - Wijnaldum, Keita, Milner (Hendo came on after 19 mins due Keita getting injured)
1-1 Arsenal A - Milner, Fabinho, Wijnaldum
[bcolor=#ff0000]2-1 PSG A[/bcolor] - Milner, Henderson, Wijnaldum
[bcolor=#00ff00]1-0 Napoli H[/bcolor] - Milner Henderson, Wijnaldum
[bcolor=#00ff00]3-1 Man U H[/bcolor] - Keita, Fabinho, Wijnaldum
[bcolor=#00ff00]4-1 Arsenal H[/bcolor] - Fabinho, Wijnaldum, Shaq
[bcolor=#ff0000]2-1 Man C A[/bcolor] - Hendo, Wijnaldum, Milner

Hendo has started 2/3 games we lost, 2/3 games we drew and 2/5 games we won.

Make of it what you want. He started the Red Star Belgrade game as well.

If I missed a game you find important, let me know.

 

[Frogfish]

Looked at our midfield combo's this season in our toughest games, that is League and CL games against top sides:

[bcolor=#00ff00]1-2 Spurs A[/bcolor] - Keita, Wijnaldum, Milner
[bcolor=#00ff00]3-2 PSG H[/bcolor] - Hendo, Milner, Wijnaldum
1-1 Chelsea A - Hendo, Milner, Wijnaldum
0-0 Man C H - Hendo, Milner, Wijnaldum
[bcolor=#ff0000]1-0 Napoli A[/bcolor] - Wijnaldum, Keita, Milner
1-1 Arsenal A - Milner, Fabinho, Wijnaldum
[bcolor=#ff0000]2-1 PSG A[/bcolor] - Milner, Henderson, Wijnaldum
[bcolor=#00ff00]1-0 Napoli H[/bcolor] - Milner Henderson, Wijnaldum
[bcolor=#00ff00]3-1 Man U H[/bcolor] - Keita, Fabinho, Wijnaldum
[bcolor=#00ff00]4-1 Arsenal H[/bcolor] - Fabinho, Wijnaldum, Shaq
[bcolor=#ff0000]2-1 Man C A[/bcolor] - Hendo, Wijnaldum, Milner

Hendo has started 2/3 games we lost, 2/3 games we drew and 2/5 games we won.

Make of it what you want. He started the Red Star Belgrade game as well.

If I missed a game you find important, let me know.

Note also that the same midfield started at home to City, where we were second best. Why on earth did Klopp think it would work better at the Etihad ?

 

[Dreambeliever]

Salah didn't hide. He was constantly battling both Kompany and Laporte and still ended up 50/50 with the pair of them. Guardiola deliberately fielded two CBs there to marshall Salah, Laporte rarely ventured over the HW line.

50/50?

Not sure about that. Ultimately their front 3 made the difference, ours didn’t.

 

[Modo]

Note also that the same midfield started at home to City, where we were second best. Why on earth did Klopp think it would work better at the Etihad ?

Yep

 

[Frogfish]

50/50?

Not sure about that. Ultimately their front 3 made the difference, ours didn’t.

Their front three were not up against Salah so have nothing to do with the point under discussion. Salah gave as good as he got and it created space that we failed to utilise to our advantage. A tad more luck though and we wouldn't have lost - never mind the goal line clearance, how the hell did the ball go between Salah's legs from 1m away when Stones cleared it !

 

[Glen C]

Looked at our midfield combo's this season in our toughest games, that is League and CL games against top sides:

[bcolor=#00ff00]1-2 Spurs A[/bcolor] - Keita, Wijnaldum, Milner
[bcolor=#00ff00]3-2 PSG H[/bcolor] - Hendo, Milner, Wijnaldum
1-1 Chelsea A - Hendo, Milner, Wijnaldum
0-0 Man C H - Hendo, Milner, Wijnaldum
[bcolor=#ff0000]1-0 Napoli A[/bcolor] - Wijnaldum, Keita, Milner
1-1 Arsenal A - Milner, Fabinho, Wijnaldum
[bcolor=#ff0000]2-1 PSG A[/bcolor] - Milner, Henderson, Wijnaldum
[bcolor=#00ff00]1-0 Napoli H[/bcolor] - Milner Henderson, Wijnaldum
[bcolor=#00ff00]3-1 Man U H[/bcolor] - Keita, Fabinho, Wijnaldum
[bcolor=#00ff00]4-1 Arsenal H[/bcolor] - Fabinho, Wijnaldum, Shaq
[bcolor=#ff0000]2-1 Man C A[/bcolor] - Hendo, Wijnaldum, Milner

Hendo has started 2/3 games we lost, 2/3 games we drew and 2/5 games we won.

Make of it what you want. He started the Red Star Belgrade game as well.

If I missed a game you find important, let me know.

Hardly much difference lets be honest here. So we won 3 games without him and won 2 games with him....wow. In all 3 games that we lost we had Milner starting and Milner has only won 3 matches.

 

[mark1975]

Hardly much difference lets be honest here. So we won 3 games without him and won 2 games with him....wow. In all 3 games that we lost we had Milner starting and Milner has only won 3 matches.

Yeah, it's not much of a gauge. We've lost a few games with all of these players, it's about having the right combination. Before the game, they mentioned that we'd not lost any of the previous 26 Premiership games that Hendo had started, that's a fairly significant stat that's been overlooked. But whatever, it's clear that for all Milners versatility, he's not infallible and his quality needs to be used at the right times and in the right positions.

As for the slights against Henderson earlier in the thread about how much protection TAA got. If you watch the game, Gini was the one instructed with protecting him, he was repeatedly stepping into the right back slot, to allow TAA to go forward. TAA did well against Sane again, but Sane outdid him for the crucial chance of the game, due to clever play from Sterling by drawing him in. It happens, the lad doesn't make too many mistakes and he gets more than adequate protection. The problem for Henderson was that Gini helped TAA, Milner helped Robbo and then Hendo had to pick up Silva plus all of the deep runs from Aguero. It's not the first time he's been done by top class players, it happened in the final, not surprising but it shows we need better in certain games, or that he needs more help in that system against certain teams.

 

[Hansern]

Even if Hendo didnt perform to his best last night, Fabinho should have started. He showed why when he came on, controlling the play and being aggressive.

 

[mark1975]

Even if Hendo didnt perform to his best last night, Fabinho should have started. He showed why when he came on, controlling the play and being aggressive.

You can sort of see why he didn't though. He's been guilty of being sloppy in games and you do that against City and you get crucified. He came on yesterday and played a really loose ball early on that we just about got away with, so it's that kind of adjusting that he still needs to make. That said, I agree, he should have started yesterday with Henderson and with Shaqiri at the tip of the midfield.

 

[Grjt2]

He is, and I do think we're in the process of shifting him. I think klopp was hoping keita would hit the ground running, but that's just not happened at all.

Shame like

Ushering him out the door by way of a 5yr, £25m contract? Strange move...

 

[Modo]

Hardly much difference lets be honest here. So we won 3 games without him and won 2 games with him....wow. In all 3 games that we lost we had Milner starting and Milner has only won 3 matches.

Removing the games Hendo started:

[bcolor=#00ff00]1-2 Spurs A[/bcolor] - Keita, Wijnaldum, Milner
[bcolor=#ff0000]1-0 Napoli A[/bcolor] - Wijnaldum, Keita, Milner (Hendo came on after 19 mins due Keita getting injured)
1-1 Arsenal A - Milner, Fabinho, Wijnaldum
[bcolor=#00ff00]3-1 Man U H[/bcolor] - Keita, Fabinho, Wijnaldum
[bcolor=#00ff00]4-1 Arsenal H[/bcolor] - Fabinho, Wijnaldum, Shaq

So basically, we're unbeaten when he doesn't play.

 

[mark1975]

Removing the games Hendo started:

[bcolor=#00ff00]1-2 Spurs A[/bcolor] - Keita, Wijnaldum, Milner

[bcolor=#ff0000]1-0 Napoli A[/bcolor] - Wijnaldum, Keita, Milner (Hendo came on after 19 mins due Keita getting injured)
1-1 Arsenal A - Milner, Fabinho, Wijnaldum
[bcolor=#00ff00]3-1 Man U H[/bcolor] - Keita, Fabinho, Wijnaldum
[bcolor=#00ff00]4-1 Arsenal H[/bcolor] - Fabinho, Wijnaldum, Shaq

So different combinations have had mixed results against different levels of opposition. It's not really holding much water.

Like I said, the 26 Premiership games stat is as poignant, if not even moreso. Henderson started the 3-0 win at home in the CL last season (against City) with an attacking midfielder (AOC). Ergo, maybe it's not the personnel so much as the getting the right combination in there. Have a look at your own stats, it's the same combination of three that struggled. It doesn't take a genius to work out that it's not necessarily down to one of them, given they have all had fairer results in other midfield-three combinations.

I see in the Shaqiri discussion where you dragged up the old thread about Lallana and Shaqiri, after saying it had nothing to do with your retarded obsession with Lallana, you've now decided to spend the rest of the thread banging on about Lallana being a waste of money. You really are transparent and agenda driven. And fucking boring.

 

[Mamma Mia]

One loss in 21, away to the champions, and suddenly most of SCM knows better than the man who got us 4 points clear in January.

"Questions need to be asked" my arse.

 

[Modo]

And you're clearly pissed off over the fact that I've been right all along.
It's clear as day, as soon as I posted something in this thread...boom "Mark1975 quoted your post".
Anywho, let's keep Hendo in the team. You know, based on last seasons stats or whatever.
Oh and Lallana is fucking shit too, but let's play him too.

 

[Modo]

One loss in 21, away to the champions, and suddenly most of SCM knows better than the man who got us 4 points clear in January.

"Questions need to be asked" my arse.

Yep let's play Hendo again. Fuck it, let's see where it takes us.

 

[Insignificance]

I think there is a good argument for not playing Hendo a lot. There has also been invested heavy in the midfield and the fact that the club captain often sits out big games is telling enough that he aint the first name on the team sheet. But simplyfying all performances we have played and draw conclusions based on if one player was in the line up or not is just plain stupid. I get it at People don't like him or feel he is not the best around. I don't like him myself and I wish Keita and Fabinho had delivered better so that they made it easy to not pick him. I still can't understand how People let a perfectly good and very interesting season be disturbed way beyond any sensible degree based on pure hate for our club captain. The dull repetition, wereas the use of socalled "evidence" also really show total lack of understanding the game, is really deluting quite a few of the threads. I get it that people need someone to vent their anger at when their lifes is not 100% perfect.... But the spirit of that we lost the game before kick off due to Henderson inclusion is dull and stupid.

 

[mark1975]

And you're clearly pissed off over the fact that I've been right all along.
It's clear as day, as soon as I posted something in this thread...boom "Mark1975 quoted your post".
Anywho, let's keep Hendo in the team. You know, based on last seasons stats or whatever.
Oh and Lallana is fucking shit too, but let's play him too.

"I've been right all along". Listen to you.

Want to talk about his previous 26 Premiership games Modo? Seeing as I've brought it up a few times and you've significantly chose to ignore it.

You're a joke.

 

[Mamma Mia]

Yep let's play Hendo again. Fuck it, let's see where it takes us.

I'm not talking about Hendo, just the general reaction from half the forum.

 

[mark1975]

Yep let's play Hendo again. Fuck it, let's see where it takes us.

Yes, let's do. Let's playing him in the right combination and see what happens. Whatever happens, I'm sure one loss against the Champions is less reflective of his actual ability than our results with him throughout the rest of the season.

 

[Fabio]

Ushering him out the door by way of a 5yr, £25m contract? Strange move...

Because it makes sense to not renew?

We'd be screaming murder if he left for nothing and we lacked depth.

He's not the greatest player but he's a more than able deputy. Last night he shouldn't have started, but that's more down to klopp not trusting his 2 new midfielders