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Joe Allen for sale?....

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I don't get Joe Allen as a footballer. A lot of people saying 'well we cant expect him to be Stevie G' or a real threat going forward but I don't think any of us are expecting that.

What we do expect for £15m though, is for him to have a much bigger influence in games and i'm afraid to say Allen hasn't look like being capable of doing that.
 
mark1975 said:
He's a water carrier, he'll keep the ball moving and feel at ease in pretty, quick-passing triangles, he needs to seriously impose himself more and he needs to influence the games when we're pressed and he doesn't have as much time as he'd like (or when he doesn't have the ball). He's not Xavi, he's an ok player who might flourish in the right set up and when surrounded with quality.

To be "quality" he'd have to have an outstanding ability - he doesn't have goals in him, he's not physical or athletic, he doesn't have a killer pass or long-range ability, he's just a steady potential all rounder who needs to adapt his game and learn how to be effective without the ball. The Xavi comparisons are laughable, as are those writing him off and those bigging him up too much to save face over initial assessments. He's another in similar mould to Lucas and Henderson, a poor first season with minor hints of ability that might be worth being indulgent over, but ultimately right now has us feeling like we've been had again, big time.
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I hadn't really seen much at all of Allen at Swansea so simply had to go on others opinions who claimed he's great. I'm still somewhat clinging onto the hope that they're proved right but if what you say is true then we need to buy in a replacement this summer. Our midfield was a bit of a mess last season and we need to start next season with a better plan in place.

We do seem to be linked to a couple midfielders, just that they're attacking rather than the more defensive deep lying players, which on the surface of things we seem to be more in need of. I'm pretty curious to find out who Rodgers feels is the most redundant out of Henderson, Allen and Lucas.
 
Allen does have a few outstanding abilities - first of all his short and medium-range passing game and ability to turn, evade pressure and shield the ball. Not many midfielders can do that. His first touch is very good too. And he is smart, has good vision and tactical awareness. He also has very good stamina and is willing to work hard and fight for the ball despite his small frame. People who say he doesn't have anything going for him are either being grossly unfair or blind.

The Joe Allen I saw in the first 2 months of this season is potentially a world-class midfielder and to many of us the comparisons with Xavi and Iniesta seemed not too far-fetched at the time. But after the shoulder injury and the change in the team's formation and style to less possession-oriented football, Allen wasn't able to adjust. Despite a couple of bright spots, the rest of his season has been a big disappointment.

When someone sets a high standard at the beginning and then for some reason fails to live up to it, people are often harsh in their judgement, it's only natural. That's why everybody is so down on Allen right now. But as they say, form is temporary, class is permanent. Allen is a classy player and whatever problems he encountered in his first season here, will eventually be resolved with the help of Rodgers who clearly is a fan. Here's my prediction: by the end of next season at the latest Allen will cement his place in the first team and establish himself as one of our key players.
 
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/sport-opinion/dave-prentice-joe-allen-can-4695064

He was a midfield ‘technician’ labelled the Welsh Xavi, he was a £15m signing named man of the match in his first three Premier League starts, and he was an international who appeared to be a potential successor to giants like Alonso and Mascherano.

Except he was also a player whose performance levels came down with the Christmas decorations.

The Welsh Xavi tag didn’t help.

Nor did some high profile criticism.

Alan Shearer, in a rare attempt to be as incisive on screen as he was as a striker, highlighted Allen’s preference for a safe sideways ball over a risky penetrating pass.

But was it as simple as all that?

Is Allen a modern day Butch Wilkins?

Did his stock fall simply because he stopped being ambitious with his passing?

Not according to the always illuminating EPL Index website.

A detailed analysis of Allen’s figures last season showed that he wasn’t backwards in coming forward (Steven Gerrard and Jordan Henderson actually passed the ball back more).

He wasn’t a crab either, preferring to pass the ball sideways.

Joe Allen actually passed the ball forwards more than Mikel Arteta (31% to 29%) and only fractionally less than Yaya Toure. And another Allen myth – that he can only pass the ball short, which in the hurly burly, impatient attacking style of the English Premier League is considered a sin – was spectacularly exploded.

Allen’s long pass success rate last season was the second best in the league at 89.66%.

So where did it all go wrong for Joe Allen? Because he was clearly no more a Welsh Xavi in the second half of last season than Robert Earnshaw was a David Villa of the Valleys.

From an early season average of nearly 93% passing accuracy, Allen’s average dropped to below 86% after the Goodison derby and never recovered. That coincided almost exactly with the shoulder injury which eventually ended his season prematurely – and the moment he was handed the added responsibility/distraction of becoming a father for the first time.

Despite the dip in his statistics after October, the only players to out-pass Allen across the season as a whole were Mikel Arteta and Moussa Dembele, while his Open Play Pass Completion (90%), Attacking Zone Pass Completion (85%) and Final Third Pass Completion (81%) were all well above the Premier League average (86.92%, 80.15% and 70.31% respectively).

But the best analysis of Allen’s performances last season came from the man who knew exactly what he was supposed to be doing out on the pitch.

After Shearer’s withering assessment in October when Allen was actually performing well, Brendan Rodgers rapped: “Unbelievable – so-called pundits who don’t know the dynamics of a team and how it functions.

“Joe’s role is to keep the ball. And that, in Britain, is a special talent. It is why Paul Scholes is still playing at his age. It is such a rare talent for a midfielder to rarely give the ball away.”

Allen, as his figures show, treats possession like it is nine tenths of the law.

And given a clean bill of health – and no continental imports like Nuri Sahin jostling for his midfield berth – Joe Allen can belatedly justify his £15m transfer fee.
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I think its madness to write a player off after one season. Footballers sometimes take time.
Im looking forward to seeing Joe and Fabio this season.
 
white-sox said:
Yeah I mean its only a shoulder - Only affects balance, running, tackling, strength, not to mention confidence...what a pussy eh....
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It's amazing it didn't affect Gerrard isn't it - who got better in the second half of the season while carrying the same injury.

And football is a game for pussies.
 
Rosco said:
It's amazing it didn't affect Gerrard isn't it - who got better in the second half of the season while carrying the same injury.

And football is a game for pussies.
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I'm not a medical person but:

Gerrard went for a keyhole surgey for his left shoulder that was described as a "minor procedure to cure a recurring pain" that would keep him "out of action for between six to eight weeks" whereas for Allen, "three years of wear and tear, the ball and socket of his shoulder have come apart and the recovery time for the extensive work he needs doing to the joint is between 10 and 12 weeks" and "the surgeon said that if you touched it with your thumb you would have broken the shoulder"
 
christ it's tiring having to listen to these fucking stupid shite stats when it comes to allen . It's simple , he didn't start too badly looking very skillful without really dominating games. He then lost form and was pretty fucking poor for large periods . We shouldn't give up on him but he has a hell of a lot to prove and it'll be interesting to see if at his best he will even provide enough to the team . Surely lots of players can keep possession of the ball while offering more dominance and a threat going forward . But even if he's shite i suspect it won't be his fault , he has to play in an exact position , he has to have the most clever movement in the world ahead of him , blah blah .
 
He was only good when covering for the similarly weak and small Lucas. There's no reason he shouldn't stay and compete for that position, and in fact he'd be a big improvement upon Lucas.
 
Binny said:
I'm not a medical person but:

Gerrard went for a keyhole surgey for his left shoulder that was described as a "minor procedure to cure a recurring pain" that would keep him "out of action for between six to eight weeks" whereas for Allen, "three years of wear and tear, the ball and socket of his shoulder have come apart and the recovery time for the extensive work he needs doing to the joint is between 10 and 12 weeks" and "the surgeon said that if you touched it with your thumb you would have broken the shoulder"
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I love reading that quote. And then thinking that Rodgers shrugged his own shoulders as if to taunt Allen and then send him out to play against the likes of Yaya Toure.
 
I've had 2 different types of shoulder injury, one made me slightly pussier, the other made me a screaming weeping slightly dribbling pussy every time I bumped it. After
surgery on both I got back to being a normal pussy so I can sympathize a bit with Allen. But, how did our medical team miss a two year old shoulder injury when we splurged 15m on him, I mean they must do an extensive MRI scan at the medical? And surely Rodgers must have known about it.
 
RolandG said:
I doubt that Allen is for sale. That would be surprising. He isn't a great defensive midfielder or an attacking midfielder. As a holding midfielder he can be very good but hasn't shown that consistently at Liverpool yet.
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When i was a regular poster on this site, the terms "holding midfielder" and "defensive midfielder" used to mean one and the same...

I guess things have changed now....
 
roadred said:
But, how did our medical team miss a two year old shoulder injury when we splurged 15m on him, I mean they must do an extensive MRI scan at the medical? And surely Rodgers must have known about it.
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If our medical team didn't pass off the odd injured player now and again, they'd be made redundant during the season.
 
roadred said:
I've had 2 different types of shoulder injury, one made me slightly pussier, the other made me a screaming weeping slightly dribbling pussy every time I bumped it. After
surgery on both I got back to being a normal pussy so I can sympathize a bit with Allen. But, how did our medical team miss a two year old shoulder injury when we splurged 15m on him, I mean they must do an extensive MRI scan at the medical? And surely Rodgers must have known about it.
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The notion that Allen played for five months with a shoulder that was one touch away from falling apart is ridiculous. I think it's petty clear he damaged it in March to the extent he couldn't play on with it, which is fair enough.

Niggling shoulder injuries aren't a big deal in football - it's not, as the pleb in the Echo tries to say, the reason why his passing stats dropped!
 
It's hard to believe he would've been played if the effects of his injury were as extreme as some of the examples being given in this thread (e.g. extreme pain on contact).
 
Rosco said:
The notion that Allen played for five months with a shoulder that was one touch away from falling apart is ridiculous. I think it's petty clear he damaged it in March to the extent he couldn't play on with it, which is fair enough.

Niggling shoulder injuries aren't a big deal in football - it's not, as the pleb in the Echo tries to say, the reason why his passing stats dropped!
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Then why did his passing stats drop?
 
kingjulian said:
When i was a regular poster on this site, the terms "holding midfielder" and "defensive midfielder" used to mean one and the same...

I guess things have changed now....
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Poor lad! Let me give you examples to help you. Defensive midfielder = Mascherano, Holding midfielder = Alonso
 
Rosco said:
The notion that Allen played for five months with a shoulder that was one touch away from falling apart is ridiculous. I think it's petty clear he damaged it in March to the extent he couldn't play on with it, which is fair enough.

Niggling shoulder injuries aren't a big deal in football - it's not, as the pleb in the Echo tries to say, the reason why his passing stats dropped!
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I agree in principle, and his condition has been exaggerated for the newspaper, although an injury can reduce your concentration if your concerned about a 'Stoke-ladite' trying to crush you in order to win the ball, my point was he shouldn't have been bought if he a deteriorating two year shoulder condition, unprofessional of Rodgers who surely knew about it. It stinks a bit of Aqualani, and adds to my pet hate feeling that Managers should not be allowed to bring any of their former players with them. £15m is over a third of our annual gate receipts.
 
Whirly said:
Then why did his passing stats drop?
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The opposition, his teammates, maybe he played more forward passes, more longer passes, more risky passes. Maybe he played further forward when Lucas returned. Regression to the mean.

It could be any or all of those reasons
 
Hang on Ross.... Are you saying that stats are irrelevant?

*shocked mod is shocked*
 
Rosco said:
The opposition, his teammates, maybe he played more forward passes, more longer passes, more risky passes. Maybe he played further forward when Lucas returned. Regression to the mean.

It could be any or all of those reasons
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All of these reason could stem from an injury though. Playing longer, more forward, riskier passes to try and avoid physical play in the center by trying to get the opposing back line to back off to avoid physical play. Playing further forward to avoid having to play the role of physical deep MF and risk aggravating his injury, etc

My point is you can spin his decline in play in a lot of different directions and none of them are going to stick with anybody. A nagging injury seems like the most straightforward reasoning for a dropoff in performance, until he proves one way or another I'm willing to give Allen the benefit of the doubt.
 
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