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Joe Allen for sale?....

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well it's more caughtoffside and just in the rumour section of the echo .

If we did sell it would be interesting to see how much we'd get . I doubt more than 8m .

But i doubt that will happen which raises the question of what role allen will have next season . I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't start too often , i just don't think he adds enough overall . He can't do the DM role and does he score or create enough to play further forward ? . Actually i don't really see the point of him at all.
 
I think it would sadly end the scouting tenures of Ryan and Pesam at SCM, and leave KHL & Dmish as our most senior scouts.

On a more serious note, if there's no room for him in Rodgers' preferred team, then it's probably best for him (not sure for us) to move him on.
 
Im not sure what happened to him either. Maybe it was this injury that he was supposed to be carrying through the season. But I do remember that in the early part of last season he was turning in regular MOM performances, then he had a nightmare against Swansea in the league cup, and it was all downhill from there.
 
One thing I learned about Allen is that he isn't a defensive midfielder.

Basically he's competing with Gerrard for a place in the team.
 
Of all those who have tried to solve the puzzle of Joe Allen’s difficult first season at Liverpool, perhaps his international manager has come closest.
“Joe is a terrific little player at what he does, keeping possession and retaining the ball,” Chris Coleman suggested earlier this year. What Allen is not, the Wales boss argued, is the type of player who will hit 70-yard passes and score a bagful of goals. In other words, he is no Steven Gerrard.

“He will pass through the opposition’s units and move them about,” Coleman continued. “It’s his strength. I don’t know what people were expecting of him.”

The common consensus is that Allen has fallen short of expectations since arriving at Anfield from Swansea for £15 million last August. That is not necessarily all his fault, as Coleman has noted. Yet that might make an upturn in fortunes more difficult to achieve. One of manager Brendan Rodgers’ most significant challenges ahead of the new season is to figure out how to fit his flagship Liverpool signing into his best team.

It wasn't meant to be like this. When Allen arrived on Merseyside, he had just enjoyed an excellent debut Premier League season at Swansea under Rodgers. Soon after the deal was done, the manager declared that the midfielder was the 'Welsh Xavi'. With hindsight – and perhaps foresight – it was an unhelpful comparison.

“Xavi is a player I admire so it was very flattering, but I've got a bit of work to do to get up to his standards,” said Allen a week ago, in a chat on Liverpool’s Indonesian Facebook page. It was an understated, self-effacing way of summing up a tough year.

Allen started his Liverpool career brightly, faded badly, attracted heavy criticism and ended the campaign on the sidelines as he recovered from a shoulder operation. The injury, which he had been carrying since October, cannot have helped his form. But while a fully-fit Allen will start next season with a greater hope of functioning to his full potential, the concerns over his suitability for Liverpool run beyond his individual performance levels.

That is because it is unclear just how Liverpool’s midfield can currently accommodate a player who carried limited attacking threat even during his Swansea days, and who has struggled with the defensive side of his game since moving to Merseyside. Short passing and good ball retention were part of the Rodgers philosophy at Swansea, and Allen was central to that. Those qualities, though, will not bring success without goals. It is a lesson Rodgers has had to learn during his first season at Anfield. As the season progressed, Allen’s part in that lesson mutated from participant to observer.

Rodgers has experimented with a number of different formations and personnel during his first season at Anfield, and Allen impressed early on when playing in a deep midfield role beside Lucas Leiva, with Gerrard pushed further forward. When Lucas was ruled out for three months with a thigh injury in August, Allen had to anchor the midfield, and his game ultimately suffered.
In addition, Gerrard has tended to function better this season when playing further back alongside Lucas. From there, the England captain has a licence to open defences with his accurate long-range passing and can make runs from deep – and it is a role he is likely to take on more regularly as he approaches the final years of his career.
Allen, though, has been less successful when pushed further forward to accommodate that move, as he lacks Gerrard’s goal threat and his eye for a killer through pass. The Wales international has also struggled in the deeper position when Lucas has not been around to play the holding role. When Allen and Gerrard were paired in central midfield at Southampton on March 16, Liverpool were torn apart. Rodgers, having seen his side overwhelmed by a pressing game, had no option but to take off Allen at half-time and bring on Lucas. Although Liverpool still lost 3-1, some element of midfield stability was restored.

Liverpool’s manager is not afraid to change the way his team line up; switching from 4-3-3 to 3-5-2 to shore up his defence during a 2-2 draw at Everton in October, and starting with three centre-backs in away games at Chelsea and Fulham during the season. His favoured set-up, though, has been an attacking 4-2-3-1, with his wingers encouraged to get forward in support of the central striker. It’s a set-up that offers little opportunity for Allen at present.

With Lucas and Gerrard the two midfielders in front of the back four, the three places behind Luis Suarez or Daniel Sturridge were filled most often over the second half of the season by Jordan Henderson, Philippe Coutinho and Stewart Downing. Henderson’s energetic performances and Coutinho’s creative spark made them more suitable as attacking threats than Allen, while even Downing showed signs of improvement in his second season at Anfield, following an awful debut campaign. Allen, by and large, warmed the bench, starting three Premier League games in 2013 before his season-ending surgery. Liverpool lost two of them. They suffered only one other league defeat between January and May. The Xavi comparisons are, for now, best left alone.

“Brendan is all about giving his players confidence,” Allen said last November. “I don’t know if he was being serious with the comparison with Xavi, but he’s always looking to make you feel good about yourself.”

Allen, clearly, has not allowed Rodgers’ words to go to his head. But that’s only half the battle. As it stands, the midfielder will become a Liverpool regular only if the team adapt to suit him or he adapts to suit the team. For a player of undoubted talent, a big test lies ahead.
From ESPN FC
 
It would make little sense to sell him so soon, especially at a loss. It's obvious he's a splendid footballer, but he needs to show this regularly.
 
Allen, clearly, has not allowed Rodgers’ words to go to his head. But that’s only half the battle. As it stands, the midfielder will become a Liverpool regular only if the team adapt to suit him or he adapts to suit the team. For a player of undoubted talent, a big test lies ahead.


This is the most pertinent bit about Allen, we will see the best of him if we adapt (by which I mean sign the right sort of players) to his style and we do seem to be doing that. There is no chance of him adapting to a different style in much the same way that it's impossible for Xavi to change his style.

I'd love us to keep him and sign more Coutinho-type players i.e. mobile, creative, intelligent rather than the Shelvey, Lucas, Downing-type who don't offer Allen enough options when he's in possession.

If Shelvey, Lucas and Downing are going to start regularly next season we might as well sell Allen because he'll be little use to us.
 
I think he was bought for two reasons

1) they expected stevie to play less and not maintain form

2) they thought Hendo was pants and he has turned out not to be.

Joe not needed now.
 
I think he was bought for two reasons

1) they expected stevie to play less and not maintain form

2) they thought Hendo was pants and he has turned out not to be.

Joe not needed now.
Shame though as I quite like him. I'd give him another year as he's still very young - Also wasn't he carrying an injury for most of last season?
 
If
Shame though as I quite like him. I'd give him another year as he's still very young - Also wasn't he carrying an injury for most of last season?

Indeed. If we could give the likes of Henderson and Downing a chance, why not him, especially having given his best despite his shoulder injury.
 
Allen, clearly, has not allowed Rodgers’ words to go to his head. But that’s only half the battle. As it stands, the midfielder will become a Liverpool regular only if the team adapt to suit him or he adapts to suit the team. For a player of undoubted talent, a big test lies ahead.


This is the most pertinent bit about Allen, we will see the best of him if we adapt (by which I mean sign the right sort of players) to his style and we do seem to be doing that. There is no chance of him adapting to a different style in much the same way that it's impossible for Xavi to change his style.

I'd love us to keep him and sign more Coutinho-type players i.e. mobile, creative, intelligent rather than the Shelvey, Lucas, Downing-type who don't offer Allen enough options when he's in possession.

If Shelvey, Lucas and Downing are going to start regularly next season we might as well sell Allen because he'll be little use to us.

Spot on. I do believe Rodgers are aiming for exactly these types of creative, mobile players too.

Aspas coming in, he seems mobile, hard-working, industrious as well as skilled, and quite a lot of the players we've been linked too, and that we know we have been scouting all Season, also ticks these boxes. Imo Allen combined with players in central like Henrikh, Eriksen etc. would make us an incredibly mobile, hard-working, dynamic and technical superior team to most.

Henrikh and Eriksen, apart from their obvious ability ON the ball where both among the players that covered the most ground during last Seasons Champion League group play. Some of the success of Bayern, Dortmund imo, is down to their players being not only capable on the ball but very much not afraid of running those extra miles to tire the opposition, create space and opportunities as well as make the team tick. The runs without the ball are the toughest but when your players are constantly making these runs anyways you will gain an advantage.
 
Hes a very good player but clearly we are not playing a system that plays to his strengths, all our midfielders to one degree or another need to play a specific role in a specific system to be effective.

Its unclear what the overall vision for the midfield will be, are we going to try to become more solid in the middle and give the front three license to roam hoping they can score enough goals between them to cover the lack of threat from midfield, or are we trying to take the burden off the strikers and have a fluid attacking line up with players alternating positions.

I really dont think we have the players to play a fluid attacking set up, until that changes we will most likely play a midfield 3 with a primary function of retaining the ball and moving the play into areas where our attacking players can do some damage. In that sort of set up players like Allen and the newly restrained Gerrard will be vital to our success, we could certainly do with a more defensive holding midfield option though.
 
I think we should keep him, if only on the strength of those first few games when he was ace. That can't have been a fluke. He must have been injured or phased or weirded out or something and you'd hope he can get over all that.

But the weird thing about his games since October were that the bit that was meant to be good about him, possession and passing, were just toss. He was meant to rub off on Lucas, not the other way round.
 
Joe Allen is a rare breed of player; he's a conduit who is completely affected by the quality around him and cannot influence that quality. If he played for Plymouth Argyle he would not look like a Premier League player but paradoxically if he played for Barcelona he could replace Xavi seemlessly. Similarly if Xavi played for us last season and he was trying to "pick a pass" and his options were lucas, Shelvey, or Downing he'd have struggled as much as Allen did.
 
name one thing i've been wrong about. don't say allen.
I don't pay much attention to what you have to say Skully but I'm right more often than anyone else on this forum so by extension I'm right more often than you.
 
Rodgers' comments:

March 2012


“People categorise it to technical, tactical, physical and mental. Every day in terms of the work, everything we do is with the ball.”

Spontaneously he repeats himself in Spanish: “Todo lo que hacemos es con el balon.”

The very same words the head of Barca’s famous La Masia academy Carles Folguera used when I interviewed him about the Catalans’ training methods last year.

So, like Barcelona?

Rodgers said: “Exactamente. That is the ideology. I like players to think.

“I like their brains to be sore after every session. I want them to keep thinking. To play this way you need players with incredible intelligence.

“Keeper has the ball and smashes it up the pitch, doesn’t have to think. But the quickness of the brains in our team is so important.

“People ask me ‘Why don’t you run through the trees and the woods and get them strong’. I say ‘I never see a tree on the football field’.

“Mourinho told me ‘A pianist doesn’t run around the piano. He sits down and improves his touch and practices until he picks the right tune’.

“We are the same. We don’t run around the field, we play inside the field.”

So if midfield metronome Leon Britton is Rodgers’ Xavi, who is his Andres Iniesta?

“Joe Allen is my Iniesta.”

And his Messi?

“There’s only one Messi.”


May 2012

"I like teams to control and dominate the ball, so the players are hungry for the ball," Rodgers says. "You'll see in some of our exercises this morning, a lot of our work is around the transition and getting the ball back very quickly. Because I believe if you give a bad player time, he can play. If you give a good player time, he can kill you. So our emphasis is based around our positioning both with and without the ball. And for us, when we press well, we pass well."

"You cannot go on your own," he says. "You work on zonal pressure, so that when it is in your zone, you have the capacity to press. That ability to press immediately, within five or six seconds to get the ball, is important. But you also have to understand when you can't and what the triggers are then to go for it again because you can't run about like a madman.

"It's decision-making and intelligence. And this was always the thing with the British player, they were always deemed never to be intelligent, not to have good decision-making skills but could fight like hell for the ball. I believe they have all of the [attributes] and, if you can structure that, then you can have real, effective results."

"This morning's session is based around football strength, small-space work, lots of options on the ball and covering the principles of our game, which are possession, transition, pass-think, pass-think, pass-think and the core ingredient of hard work."

Rodgers talks about four phases that underpin Swansea's approach when they have the ball. "There is the building and constructing from behind, the preparation through midfield, the creativity to arrive in the areas and then the taking of the goals. These are all areas that we have to continually improve on but that is the basis of our game and it doesn't change."

"The only time we rest is when we have the ball," the 39-year-old says. "When we haven't got the ball is the moment for intense pressure to get the ball back. But you can't go for 90 minutes, so in order to recuperate and conserve energy, we'll do that sometimes by building our way through the game — our tiki-taka football, our small lending games to keep the ball.

"When we're stuck in the game, we go back to our default system, which is possession."

August 2012

“This boy, when you see him play you’d think he was Spanish,” he said. “I’m happy to pay millions for this kid.

“He’s unique in that he is a British player who just does not give the ball away.

You will see that and the difference he can make. He’s incredible on the ball and is very intelligent – for a 22-year-old, it’s frightening.

“His game understanding is very, very good and he is in love with the football. He loves it. He wants it all the time.

“He has so much courage to get on the ball and play, and I think he will fit in really, really well.”

October 12

“I would have paid many millions more for this kid. He’s unique in that he’s a British player who is incredible on the ball.

His body work is very intelligent and for a 22-year-old it’s frightening. He’s incredible.”

He is 5ft 6ins but in terms of being a footballer he is 7ft 6ins. He’s absolutely immense. His courage in getting on the ball, how he reads the game and his football intelligence is outstanding.

“We paid £15m for him and I said that very quickly that price would double and people probably laughed at me.

“But he will play here for many years and the supporters will love this kid.”

“I saw something criticising Joe Allen for not playing risk passes.

“Unbelievable – so-called pundits who don’t know the dynamics of a team and how it functions.

Joe’s role is to keep the ball. And that, in Britain, is a special talent. It is why Paul Scholes is still playing to his age. It is such a rare talent for a midfielder to rarely give the ball away.

“People have talked about him and his fee but in time he will be an absolute bargain.

“He will have a long career here. He’s a wonderful talent and over time people will see what facets he’s got in his game.

“Where we have been really pleased with Joe is with his tactical discipline. Maybe he’s never going to score as many as Steven Gerrard but he’s certainly got quality going forward.

Offensively, he has far more than what a lot of people have seen, just because he’s having to play a more sitting role at the moment.

“I have played him in there because he knows how to control the game. He is courageous and will go and get the ball in any area.

“It is his tactical discipline to stay and keep the shape of the team and offer the passing line, which has been really good though.

Because of that we haven’t seen everything he can do going forward – but we will.”
 
I doubt that Allen is for sale. That would be surprising. He isn't a great defensive midfielder or an attacking midfielder. As a holding midfielder he can be very good but hasn't shown that consistently at Liverpool yet.
 
Joe Allen is a rare breed of player; he's a conduit who is completely affected by the quality around him and cannot influence that quality. If he played for Plymouth Argyle he would not look like a Premier League player but paradoxically if he played for Barcelona he could replace Xavi seemlessly. Similarly if Xavi played for us last season and he was trying to "pick a pass" and his options were lucas, Shelvey, or Downing he'd have struggled as much as Allen did.

I simply haven't seen him enough myself to determine whether he is indeed this type of player but it would make some sense if that was indeed the case.
 
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