• You may have to login or register before you can post and view our exclusive members only forums.
    To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Is there a better way ?

Forums Unread posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Rosco

Rosco

Worse than Brendan
Member
If the plan is to spend in the region of another 130-140m on VVD and Keita, i'm beginning to wonder if its the best use of that kind of money.

Lets assume Coutinho is staying.

Instead of VVD and Keita we could have:
Kessie 28m
Paredes 23m
Schick 20m
Rudiger 35m

And still have money left over
 
I'd trust the boss at the moment, he doesn't seem to have got the big money signings wrong so I'd let him crack on. All of us playing football manager would end in tears. The players listed above might be brilliant, but they also might be absolute bellends and not fit the team, I've no idea. I'm guessing Klopp and his team do all sorts of research on these big ticket players before buying them.
 
That's a fair question. In the past many fans complained about us spreading the funds too thin on mediocre players – the common sentiment among fans was "let's buy 2-3 top class players instead of 5-6 squad fillers." Now that we seem to be targeting the former, some people are questioning that strategy too. Personally I think the choice of strategy – whether to invest in potential or proven quality – depends on where you think the current team is in terms of its development. If we are ready to try to win things now, then definitely go for quality, especially in key positions such as CB. If we are rebuilding with the view of competing a few years down the road, go for potential.
 
Mors said:
I'd trust the boss at the moment, he doesn't seem to have got the big money signings wrong so I'd let him crack on. All of us playing football manager would end in tears. The players listed above might be brilliant, but they also might be absolute bellends and not fit the team, I've no idea. I'm guessing Klopp and his team do all sorts of research on these big ticket players before buying them.
Click to expand...

I'd rather hear your opinion
 
I mean , statistically, i fancy our chances more of getting big money keita and vvd deals than i do closing off twice as many deals for top players that a few tops sides are all competing for.

Not every club has the same reach or capabilities £150m would never translate into the same purchases between utd, chelsea and ourselves for example.
 
Rosco said:
I'd rather hear your opinion
Click to expand...

I think this team is really not far from being very good – IF the defense is sorted. So as far as CB is concerned, I would definitely go for proven quality, no matter how expensive. In midfield, contrary to many posters' opinions here, I think we are mostly OK even without Keita – but I'm kind of sold on the idea of getting that extra cutting edge with that "2 players in one" combo he supposedly offers (according to people who see him a lot), so if we can afford him as well, then why not?

Another consideration is that we have quite a few highly rated youngsters on the verge of breaking into the first team; they can give us extra depth when we compete on 2 fronts and Klopp is great at youth development – so that's another argument in favor of buying quality over quantity this summer.
 
Rosco said:
I'd rather hear your opinion
Click to expand...

I'd spend 130-140 million on those 2 mate as they're very highly rated by big clubs and could come straight into the first team, and have experience in top leagues.
 
rurikbird said:
I think this team is really not far from being very good – IF the defense is sorted. So as far as CB is concerned, I would definitely go for proven quality, no matter how expensive. In midfield, contrary to many posters' opinions here, I think we are mostly OK even without Keita – but I'm kind of sold on the idea of getting that extra cutting edge with that "2 players in one" combo he supposedly offers (according to people who see him a lot), so if we can afford him as well, then why not?

Another consideration is that we have quite a few highly rated youngsters on the verge of breaking into the first team; they can give us extra depth when we compete on 2 fronts and Klopp is great at youth development – so that's another argument in favor of buying quality over quantity this summer.
Click to expand...

I think we're buying more hype than quality
 
I've never seen any of them, but I do tend to think we're overpaying this window. I don't think the market is as crazy as mentioned and feel some clubs are taking advantage of it, which is fair enough, but it makes the argument that there has to better value out there a legitimate one. Very good players are still transferring for £30-35M. I don't have a list of alternatives but anyone can tell you the price for VDV and Kieta in on the wrong side of steep and I'm not convinced they had the quality their fee demands. We're paying 'world-class' fees for these players and I haven't been convinced VDV or Kieta are. If we do sign them at the reported prices then they need to be brilliant and take us to place where we can compete for honours. Simply being good or "7/10 every week" won't be enough. As someone else mentioned, I want them to be worth their fee demands. I want them to be £60-70M players in red shirt. But I'd also like them to have proven more in the game before we put that sort of fee on their head.
 
Rosco said:
I think we're buying more hype than quality
Click to expand...

It's fine if you think so. I disagree – Klopp has never been one to fall for hype. Whenever people start looking for extraneous things in his purchases, like when two thirds of this forum were convinced the only reason we are buying Mane is because he comes from Southampton and scored a couple of times against us, there is usually a much more substantive football-related reasoning behind the move.

At Dortmund it was the same – for instance Reus at the time seemed like an expensive purchase and perhaps "too obvious" of a signing after his excellent previous season at Monchengladbach, but it turned out he was exactly the player they needed to take Dortmund to a new level. I don't think price or hype matters much to Klopp – he can buy one starting defender for free, like Matip, and be ready to spend top money on another; either way he is thinking 100% in football terms about how to solve the puzzle rather than "placating the fans" or "making a point to the board" or any other stupid shit like that. The good quality of Klopp is that his personality is strong enough not to care about things like this.
 
Last edited:
Rosco said:
I think we're buying more hype than quality
Click to expand...

Perhaps, but we've tried buying 'value' players in the tier below the players we want for about ten years now, & most of the time it doesn't fucking work.

Sometimes we need to gamble, & this side isn't that far away from seriously challenging with the right players.

The way I look at it, when you buy any player you're taking a gamble, but as a general rule, paying more increases the chances of their success (of course there are loads of examples of that not working, before anyone screams Andy Carroll at me), whereas gambling with that lower tier of players or potential, is much riskier, our track record with it is probably around 50% success, & even then that 50% aren't becoming those top tier players, just good first teamers, it's a much lower percentage that become the top tier players you're arguing we swerve to buy those.

If we assume that stays true then we end up with two squad players, & two first teamers who are lower quality than we need to genuinely improve the first team.

Of course, no one fucking knows for sure, but imo repeating the same actions over & over again in the hope that the outcome will change is a huge mistake.
 
rurikbird said:
It's fine if you think so. I disagree – Klopp has never been one to fall for hype. Whenever people start looking for extraneous things in his purchases, like when two thirds of this forum were convinced the only reason we are buying Mane is because he comes from Southampton and scored against us, there is usually a much more substantive purely football-related reasoning behind the move.

At Dortmund it was the same – for instance Reus at the time seemed like an expensive purchase and possibly an attempt to weaken a "rival" Borussia, but it turned out he was exactly the player they needed to take them to a new level. I don't think price or hype matters much to Klopp – he can buy one starting defender for free like Matip and be ready to spend top money on another; either way he is thinking 100% in football terms about how to solve the puzzle rather than "placating the fans" or "making a point to the board" or any other stupid shit like that other managers sometimes fall into.
Click to expand...

Bollocks

As for the rest, I do think Klopp seems less likely to make signings "just because" and would rather make no signings than a signing he isn't sure about, and that is overall good, but has obvious downsides.

Plus he's no more reliable or less prone to make transfer fuckups than any other top manager.
 
Rosco said:
If the plan is to spend in the region of another 130-140m on VVD and Keita, i'm beginning to wonder if its the best use of that kind of money.

Lets assume Coutinho is staying.

Instead of VVD and Keita we could have:
Kessie 28m
Paredes 23m
Schick 20m
Rudiger 35m

And still have money left over
Click to expand...

What'll we do with the money left over?

It's the kind of thing that pissed us of for years not going all out for the big money players and being left with a few 'decent' other options (I'm not passing judgement on the players listed above, or even VVD/Keita).
If the money is there for 2 players to walk into the team and improve the first 11 now then I'm all for it.
 
This is the first time in many many many years where I'm not 100% sure that we'll f*** up our big money signings.

It's a minor miracle that Klopp is our manager.

He's bought If we have the damn money, let him spend it NOW. Sooner or later someone else is going to fritter it all away on 11 Andy Carrolls
 
Mors said:
I'd spend 130-140 million on those 2 mate as they're very highly rated by big clubs and could come straight into the first team, and have experience in top leagues.
Click to expand...

This kind of backs up my opinion on the hype.

If it was true that big clubs wants Van Dijk, they'd have bought him by now. We're the only team trying to sign him from what i can see. No big European club has been interested.

And neither VVD or Keita have much more top level experience than any of the players i listed above.

VVD has played 55 games for Southampton.
Keita has 31 games under his belt in tge Bundesliga

Kessie has 30 Serie A games under his belt.
Schick - 32 games Serie A
Paredes - 70 games Serie A.
Rudiger - 56 games Serie A.

There's not a vast difference in top flight experience.
 
Rosco said:
This kind of backs up my opinion on the hype.

If it was true that big clubs wants Van Dijk, they'd have bought him by now. We're the only team trying to sign him from what i can see. No big European club has been interested.

And neither VVD or Keita have much more top level experience than any of the players i listed above.

VVD has played 55 games for Southampton.
Keita has 31 games under his belt in tge Bundesliga

Kessie has 30 Serie A games under his belt.
Schick - 32 games Serie A
Paredes - 70 games Serie A.
Rudiger - 56 games Serie A.

There's not a vast difference in top flight experience.
Click to expand...

Are you kidding me – City and Chelsea don't count for you?
 
Yeah, there may well be some hype incorporated in the price, but if it gets Klopp he's preferred targets, I'm all for it.
 
FoxForceFive said:
Perhaps, but we've tried buying 'value' players in the tier below the players we want for about ten years now, & most of the time it doesn't fucking work.

Sometimes we need to gamble, & this side isn't that far away from seriously challenging with the right players.

The way I look at it, when you buy any player you're taking a gamble, but as a general rule, paying more increases the chances of their success (of course there are loads of examples of that not working, before anyone screams Andy Carroll at me), whereas gambling with that lower tier of players or potential, is much riskier, our track record with it is probably around 50% success, & even then that 50% aren't becoming those top tier players, just good first teamers, it's a much lower percentage that become the top tier players you're arguing we swerve to buy those.

If we assume that stays true then we end up with two squad players, & two first teamers who are lower quality than we need to genuinely improve the first team.

Of course, no one fucking knows for sure, but imo repeating the same actions over & over again in the hope that the outcome will change is a huge mistake.
Click to expand...

I don't think it holds true that the more we pay the better chance we have of things panning out well. Intuitively it makes sense, but thats reliant on the players being worth what is paid.
 
Hyena said:
This is the first time in many many many years where I'm not 100% sure that we'll f*** up our big money signings.

It's a minor miracle that Klopp is our manager.

He's bought If we have the damn money, let him spend it NOW. Sooner or later someone else is going to fritter it all away on 11 Andy Carrolls
Click to expand...

I think we are very much letting him spend it.
 
rurikbird said:
It's fine if you think so. I disagree – Klopp has never been one to fall for hype. Whenever people start looking for extraneous things in his purchases, like when two thirds of this forum were convinced the only reason we are buying Mane is because he comes from Southampton and scored a couple of times against us, there is usually a much more substantive football-related reasoning behind the move.

At Dortmund it was the same – for instance Reus at the time seemed like an expensive purchase and perhaps "too obvious" of a signing after his excellent previous season at Monchengladbach, but it turned out he was exactly the player they needed to take Dortmund to a new level. I don't think price or hype matters much to Klopp – he can buy one starting defender for free, like Matip, and be ready to spend top money on another; either way he is thinking 100% in football terms about how to solve the puzzle rather than "placating the fans" or "making a point to the board" or any other stupid shit like that. The good quality of Klopp is that his personality is strong enough not to care about things like this.
Click to expand...

Can you justify the prices without reference to Klopp ?
 
@Rosco I've no problem with us taking a punt for 5-10mill a throw on the likes of Kessie, Schick, Paredes - as they're relative unknowns playing for mickey mouse teams. Rudiger is a bit different as he an established first teamer for a big Italian club. But there's no way I'd want us to be spending like 50-100mill on the first 3.
 
Mors said:
@Rosco I've no problem with us taking a punt for 5-10mill a throw on the likes of Kessie, Schick, Paredes - as they're relative unknowns playing for mickey mouse teams. Rudiger is a bit different as he an established first teamer for a big Italian club. But there's no way I'd want us to be spending like 50-100mill on the first 3.
Click to expand...

Paredes and Rudiger have been playing in the same team

What's your opinion of Southampton and Red Bull - since the club seems to be relevant to whether you think its a good idea
 
Anyway, I've never seen the 3 kids play so I've no idea how good they are or whether they're worth a punt, they could be bollocks or ace. I've seen Rudiger play, he's not bad. With all 4 though, I'd trust Klopp's judgement over mine.
 
Mors said:
Anyway, I've never seen the 3 kids play so I've no idea how good they are or whether they're worth a punt, they could be bollocks or ace. I've seen Rudiger play, he's not bad. With all 4 though, I'd trust Klopp's judgement over mine.
Click to expand...

So we're back to just trust the manager.

You're confident that there's no possible way of us being better by signing other players.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom