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In defense of the defence

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Dreambeliever

Will he believe again?
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We have the 2nd highest number of clean sheets in the league with 11 1 behind Ciry who have 12. Not bad for a team who apparently have a keeper in decline, no quality CB's a right back who is accused regularly of not being able to defend, with a left back who many have wanted replaced.

This season is shaping up to exceed my expectations in terms of the style of football we are playing and the attacking threat we are posing. We are scoring freely and as utd have proven time and time again a rock solid defense isn't the be all and end all.

Are we really that poor at the back?
 
Nice use of some selective stats Dreamy.

We've had a keeper who's perform below par for most of the season, and a raft of CB's who've had fairly ordinary seasons and been at fault for a variety of goals/performances.

I take your optimistic tone, but we're 7th, haven't beaten one good side all year and - in the first week of March - playing for nothing right now. Our defence is good enough for a team that regularly finishes 7th-10th.

Let's not get too excited.
 
Well we'll fix 1 of those stats for you this week against Spurs.

Also while we can't get 4th if we do finish with a flurry of wins with exciting football it will go a long way to attracting players in the summer.

And for all of our problems we haven't ever been ripped apart at the back more so errors by individuals have cost us
 
Don't care if we have the highest number of clean sheets, I know what I can see with my own eyes. Our defending is poor. Every time the opposition break or have a set piece they always look like they are gonna score.
 
Some superb and in recent times rare Pepe interventions are the only reason why we didn't win a 4-3 thriller at the weekend.

I think the CDM/holding players are part of the problems here though too..
 
Nice use of some selective stats Dreamy.

We've had a keeper who's perform below par for most of the season, and a raft of CB's who've had fairly ordinary seasons and been at fault for a variety of goals/performances.

I take your optimistic tone, but we're 7th, haven't beaten one good side all year and - in the first week of March - playing for nothing right now. Our defence is good enough for a team that regularly finishes 7th-10th.

Let's not get too excited.

I agree, let's not get ahead of ourselves here.

We've had a poor season in general IMO, granted it was always going to be tough to get into the top four but even still we've been thoroughly mid table all season. We have looked really good in a handful of games and fucking dire in a handful more and almost held our own against the big boys a few times but really it has been very little to write home about. If we carry on as we are playing at the moment then at least we will be able to look forward to next season as we have brightened up of late but still.... We have also conceded some truly fucking woeful goals...2013 has not been a success.

That said It is also true to say that after some of our more recent performances when the players have looked happy and enjoying what they are doing we can say that maybe next year if we can keep Luis, with a full season of Sturridge, we could well give the others a better run next time out. It is just a shame that theyve started playing when it's already too late.
 
Defensively we're very brittle, we always look one step away from complete collapse, I don't feel assured in any way by them, there's no real authority or dominance in there, and while Enrique and Johnson are great going forward, they're still prone to lapses and too often allow wide players to get a ball across the box. Reina was once again bollocking Enrique at the weekend for fucking around at the back and allowing the ball in, we've seen that quite regularly.

The clean sheets thing tells us that when our possession game works, it works well, it's nothing really to do with defensive strength, it's due to keeping hold of the ball and putting the opposition under pressure. Which is why when we play the big teams that have equal or better technical players, we come unstuck because when someone asks questions of the defense, more often than not we're found wanting. Errors creep in and uncertainty, then we're reminded that as far as personnel go, we're neither collectively nor individually strong enough.
 
Agger was another at the weekend aswell, the ball was there to be cleared, yet he headed it about two yards straight to the feet of their player inside the box, it happened a few times during the game due to fucking around and not clearing our lines.
 
Why have you spelt defence in two different ways? So that you'll get at least one of them right?

I presume it's because he's been exposed to some American English and now doesn't know which is which. Or perhaps he genuinely thinks they're two, entirely separate, words. It can be awfully confusing being Dreamy.
 
Most of the goals we conceed are mistakes we have made because rodgers is so insistent on passing from the back regardless of the pressure. Its a stupid idea that just invites problems and regardless of who we bring in we will always look fragile if we keep implementing it. Even teams like real madrid and bayern munich know when its time to punt the ball long.
 
We have the 2nd highest number of clean sheets in the league with 11 1 behind Ciry who have 12. Not bad for a team who apparently have a keeper in decline, no quality CB's a right back who is accused regularly of not being able to defend, with a left back who many have wanted replaced.

This season is shaping up to exceed my expectations in terms of the style of football we are playing and the attacking threat we are posing. We are scoring freely and as utd have proven time and time again a rock solid defense isn't the be all and end all.

Are we really that poor at the back?

The league table doesn't lie Pat.

But....

I saw the clean sheets stat for Reina the other week and actually thought it wasn't bad for an error prone, past his best, wish he'd fuck off goalie (C. Sixcrazyminutes.com)

Our defence has looked poor and frankly Wigan made more chances than us. If anything, I think some of our defensive brittleness has come from not having a settled or consistent midfield 3 in front of them. Add to that, we have full backs who like to attack and this has exposed them.

Is our defence that bad? Not as bad as has been painted but there are some fixes needed and as we are losing Carra and maybe one more, we do need to acquire another quality CB in the future if Wisdom or Kelly are not the future - cos Coates isn't the future for me.
 
There are 6 teams in the league currently with a better defensive record than us.
We're 7th in the league table.

So, our defence is at present good enough for a 5th-8th finish imho.
As Mark says when we are on our game, posession and controlling the other team we usually get a clean sheet aswell. The problem is that when we concede one goal, number two usually follows shortly after.
Mistakes at the back, not having a settled midfield, Lucas off form, playing Johnson on the left. There are loads of reason to why we look a bit fragile at the back, in certain games mind.

We desperatly need a new CB and probably a new midfielder before the balance is right.

To answer Dreamys initial post, the defence isnt as bad as some wants us to believe but it also isnt good enough to take the step up into the top 4 etc.

The positive thing though, which no one has mentioned, is that we've scored the third most goals in the league this season. And thats really something to build on.
As most managers would say, sorting out the defence bit is much easier than the attacking part.
Lets hope Rodgers has got some good ideas and quality players in mind when it comes to next years defence.
 
Most of the goals we conceed are mistakes we have made because rodgers is so insistent on passing from the back regardless of the pressure. Its a stupid idea that just invites problems and regardless of who we bring in we will always look fragile if we keep implementing it. Even teams like real madrid and bayern munich know when its time to punt the ball long.

Actually that's not quite true I think - or at least not how I remember it. Most of the goals we've conceded have not come from us passing badly from the back (there have been a few, yes). Most of them have come from us basically not blocking a crosser, not picking up a runner in or into the box, not catching a ball properly and not tracking someone at the far post - but not many of these have come directly or indirectly from us passing poorly from the back.

Some were counter-attacks triggered by us losing the ball in midfield or from our setpiec, some were directly or indirectly from setpieces due to us conceding a poor foul or a throw-in / corner, some were just normal opponent buildups, and of course, some were just straight boneheaded stuff like Skrtel's pass.

We do put ourselves under additional pressure when we don't hoof when we should though. However, that's different from saying we concede most goals from that.
 
Clean sheets are great and all that, but what the "clean sheet" and "goals conceded" stats don't tell you, is how many errors we've made that we were lucky to get away with. We had a couple of potentially fatal defensive errors on Saturday, but yet we had a clean sheet.

This why using past statistics to judge how good/bad a team is fucks me off no end.
 
Pat mate our defence has been shite this season. There's no defending it really. Improving a bit lately but overall it's been a big pile of steaming poo.
 
Some superb and in recent times rare Pepe interventions are the only reason why we didn't win a 4-3 thriller at the weekend.

I think the CDM/holding players are part of the problems here though too..

I think this CDM stuff in a infatuation of some sorts. It is not necessary to have a DM to win the title - Manure do it all the time since Keane left. We need serious, unadulterated, firepower. Lots of it. Movement, pace, goals, depth. That should be the priority. Sturridge injury, suarez suspension and the team looks pathetic in terms of goals.
 
I think this CDM stuff in a infatuation of some sorts. It is not necessary to have a DM to win the title - Manure do it all the time since Keane left. We need serious, unadulterated, firepower. Lots of it. Movement, pace, goals, depth. That should be the priority. Sturridge injury, suarez suspension and the team looks pathetic in terms of goals.

We lack athleticism and power in the middle of the park though. It doesn't have to be a designated DM, but we do lack the genuine ability to cover ground and out muscle opponents. It's not just about firepower, we've had a reasonable amount at times and still looked brittle everywhere else.
 
We lack athleticism and power in the middle of the park though. It doesn't have to be a designated DM, but we do lack the genuine ability to cover ground and out muscle opponents. It's not just about firepower, we've had a reasonable amount at times and still looked brittle everywhere else.
Exactly. I watched yaya toure last night and the ground he covers is amazing. Hes a real powerhouse and makes a huge difference to city. Really think we should go for diame for those games where we need muscle.
 
We need to improve the pace, strength, determination and pride in the central midfield, be it through purchases or improvements in the existing group. I'd like to see our guys take it as a personal insult if they see an opponent frolicking unmolested in a big gap in the midfield, or opponents flitting around like little fairies, pinging short passes and making little triangles, trapeziums and circles in the grass. In fact, Rodgers should put the three midfielders' names in the envelopes every time he seems them allowing opponents do that.

I'd be happy with three Yaya Toure types there, and I'm not sure what we call him.
 
I think this CDM stuff in a infatuation of some sorts. It is not necessary to have a DM to win the title - Manure do it all the time since Keane left. We need serious, unadulterated, firepower. Lots of it. Movement, pace, goals, depth. That should be the priority. Sturridge injury, suarez suspension and the team looks pathetic in terms of goals.

Then how do you explain the fact we have outscored Spurs and City this season and yet we are miles behind them in terms of points on the board, we need to tighten up at the back. Our defence has been poor in two areas

1 Dealing with crosses
2 Individual errors mainly caused by trying to play the ball out from the back

But to me the real problem is that the midfield sitting in front of them offers no protection at all, thats all well and good for Barca who just starve the opposition of the ball no matter who they play, but good teams can get at us and when they do our midfield gives them free reign to run at our defence
 
As long as Agger's still classy on the ball and Johnson's the best attacking right back ever, it's all good.
 
As long as Agger's still classy on the ball and Johnson's the best attacking right back ever, it's all good.
 
The first goal was soft by Johnson but he's the last of the back 4 who needs replacing.

We desperately need some centre halves who are decent in the air and actually can defend. Instead they're always reacting (slowly) rather than anticipating and give the opposition too much space.

That said they really are not helped by the midfield which is continually unbalanced and leaves so much space it's untrue. We overcommit in stupid areas of the pitch and when we inevitably lose possession we're screwed and invite teams on to us with acres of space for them to do it.

For me, that's tactical and Rodgers needs to v quickly work it out and stop our midfielders getting so ahead of the ball.
 
The defence looks very dysfunctional and unorganized when Carra isnt starting.
No oneis taking command of thesituation, no leadership or vocal presence.
The midfield has looked better in recent months after Lucas came back but when Carra is out you can see how the back 5 shifts over from balanced to all over the place.

No doubt Rodgers needs to tweak his tactics as far as the midfield is concerned, but our biggest taskthis summer is replacing Carra. Skrtel is off and thats fine by me.

We also have no one like Lucas in our squad. The rest of the midfielders have their best attributes in the attacking part of the game.
 
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