I believe in the teachings of Barnes
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I've had some exposure to that for years by being an active member of this site though.
Depends on the players and depends on how you're putting your point across I guess.
Good coaching is about presenting an idea, making sure the players understand it, and then repeating it until they get it right. The last bit can take a fucking lifetime, but it's critical. Swansea didn't start playing like that cos Rodgers turned up on the training ground one day with an idea, and the next day they were swanning around like fucking heroes. You can take it to the bank that they work on that same shit, day in day out. Every fucking day.
Somebody up there mentioned Hodgson? Well, he's a good example actually. That inafmous line of his about "my methods don't work? Well they've worked from Xamax to the Swiss national team to Fulham etc etc...". He's right, they did. His methods are tried and trusted and they're about players buying into a way of playing and sticking rigidly to it. I remember reading a really good interview with Simon Davies around the time that Hodgson had taken him and that Fulham side to the UEFA cup final where he basically said that all their training involved was going through the same routines around shape and discipline when they didn't have it; how quickly they could retreat back into a setup that made it difficult for the opposition to counter them. Davies was saying that it was a lot of standing around and doing the same repetitive shit in training, and at the start they didn't really buy into it. They ended up in a European final with a largely shit side. Now say what you like about Hodgson but he is good at doing that. He's a coach with a way of playing that for certain sides works.
It didn't work with us cos you can't ask guys like Torres, Gerrard. Mascherano, etc to adapt to that style of play because it's fucking ridiculous. That, and he didn't have enough time to get it implemented properly. But you can see at West Brom he's got it going again.
What Dalglish has to do is find a formation that works for the players he's got and for the players he wants to buy. Now the first bi of that sounds simple enough, but aint always easy. You can see from the way Gerrard, Suarez, Lucas and the likes play that it's got to be neat, close, and quick. They're all looking for the one around the corner, the one-two, the drop-off into space. That's how Gerrard and Suarez in particular want to play, so let them do it. the key is to getting similar players around them to add variety to it, and to make it harder for the opposition to stop them. Cos right now, if you nullify Suarez and Gerrard, you've pretty much stopped us. In fact, Suarez is getting forced wider and wider to collect the ball the more games we play - anyone notice that? He's picking it up from Enrique on the byline cos oppsotion teams have figured out that if you deny him space in the hole, he'll have to drift. You add more quality like-minded players in there, and it opens up the options. Look at United, City, Spurs. Actually Spurs are the fucking perfect example - you can stop one or two of them, but then what about the other 3 or 4 who can hurt you. Options folks, fucking options.
Which brings me to the second part. Dalglish made a monumental mistake in his transfer dealings. We've been over it before but buying Carroll and Downing for that tactic of wide-man crossing / tall-man heading was fucking mental. It was a massive waste of money, and it brough in a system completely averse to the one that our best players (Gerrard, Suarez, etc) play and want to play.
Now, as you may have noticed, I'm not that keen on Dalglish. But if he's going to get another year, then he must focus on getting the right players in and getting them playing the right way. That means, however fucking galling for him, stop playing the likes of Carroll and that archaic playing style to accomodate him. It means finding a passing game and working on it until the fucking cows come home in training until the players are comfortable with it. You can swop formations, but you can't just drift between styles. You're either a passing, pressing team or you're a long ball team. Not both. I'd fuck Carroll and Downing off, and go with a 4-3-3 myself because I think we've got the players for it. Gerrard at the tip of the midfield diamond too, but then I'm just a fucking internet hack.
If Dalglish is getting another go at this, he's got to make some dramatic changes.
Wait! Is Rosco saying that managers are worthless?
No you fucking never did. That's outrageous that is. Outrageous.
*rolls eyes*
No you fucking never did. That's outrageous that is. Outrageous.
*rolls eyes*
And by the way Ryan. Excellent post mate. One fucking nil.
I'm guessing Rosco's next post will be another feeble attempt at dismissing this in a way that simply ends up showing the emptiness of his own argument.
I'm guessing Rosco's next post will be another feeble attempt at dismissing this in a way that simply ends up showing the emptiness of his own argument.
Hugely improved post Ryan; reminds me more of your input from 3 or 4 years ago.
The connundrum with Carroll and, subsequently, Downing is the crux of the matter.
I said it plenty of times 6 to 10 months ago and I wasn't alone; last season under Kenny we played excellent football for the most part; cutting teams to ribbons on a regular basis. But, Carroll was injured for a large part of it and, when he came back and was on the starting team, our football degenerated terribly. It was like magic; there one week and our play was poor - gone the next and our play was scything teams apart. Big Andy destroyed our whole passing and slick movement seemingly every time.
The connundrum is that Carroll, when playing for Newcastle, played with the ball to feet; he was a big presence at corners and dead balls etc but, in open play, he played it on the ground and he was, at times, unplayable. Either Kenny saw that play and wanted to bring it to Anfield or you have to question who's decision it was to buy him. Kenny has always been pass and move; press the opposition and play football. It was clearly his philosophy in the first 6 months but a combination of Andy playing and Ming departing seems to be sabotaging that approach.
In that respect I'm at a loss to explain what Kenny or Damien were thinking; Downing really only made a lot of sense if they wanted people on the end of some crosses and that would see a change in the playing philosophy.
I still believe that Kenny will work his way out of it but the summer is hugely important for him.
Yeah, I touched upon this above about the style of play, but I really think it's going to be a crucial piece for him to address (should he stay in his job that is).
You simply cannot play a smorgasbord of neat-interplay and long ball to the front man. It's fucked, and won't work. Sure you can adapt to suit needs, and be flexible with your approach but deploying a centre forward who isn't cut out to play the type of game the rest of our other players want to play is ridiculous. He gets in the wrong positions, he doesn't come looking for it, he doesn't link very well, and he's not a clever enough footballer. He would undoubtedly work for a team that plays to his strengths, but that aint us. We kinda half sorta maybe try to play to his strenghts, occassionally. Kenny's trying to shoehorn something in, and hope it pays off. It might do the odd time, as he's shown with the odd goal, but by and large it doesn't; it fucks up rhythm, momentum, and attacking intent. It's like trying to drive a car with a clamp on the fucking wheel.
I can see why he persists with it; he spent 35 fucking million on him. But as big a decision as it was to spend that on him, an even bigger one needs to be made to rebuild without him. Start again and you've got a chance Kenny. Persist with this mess of half a dozen different styles, and you're fucked. It won't work.
And don't even get me started on him compounding the mistake by buying a 20M winger to cross the fucking thing to him.
Allow me to add to the endorsements of those posts and the analysis they contain. Nice one.
personally I think the key for us getting back on track is is having a CM that sheilds th defends and also builds attacks and gerrard should be nowhere near it. we needs agger back asap because whether you feel he is better than skrtel or not what can't be argued is he allows us to play in a manner than carra simply is no longer capable of by pushing us closer to the oppersition.
I think we have the correct people in defense, I think we have one half of what we need in central midfield, basically we need someone to lead the line, that person may end up being carroll but that is starting to look like a pipe dream and we need someone who can carry ball forwards at pace and stretch teams and it's highly unlikely that player is downing,
-----------------------------keeper------------------------------------
johnson--------skrtel-------------------agger-------------enrique
-----------------lucas-------------new CM------------------------
-----------------------------gerrard--------------------------------
------new AM---------new striker--------suarez---------------
3 positions to fill and I'm of opinion they should be placed in this priority (or expense)
1) central midfielder
absolutely key with regards to our ability to challenge, ideally would be javi martinez but it's very unlikely he'll come here so we need the next best thing.
2) attacking midfielder
someone who is direct has pace and can stretch teams, eden hazard (no chance) so we need the next best thing.
it's a pity raheem isn't further in his development.
3) striker
I was hoping that carroll could turn things around but that is looking unlikely. we need someone with movement, strength and is equally adapt inside the area as he is outside the area.
that's what we need, unfortunately we have little to attract them expect our name and big wages, I'm not optimistic to be honest.
if you look at the last transfer windows and look at the signings, I think the idea was there but the personnel has let down the system
-----------------------------keeper------------------------------------
johnson--------skrtel-------------------agger-------------enrique
----------------------lucas-------------ADAM------------------------
--------------------------------gerrard--------------------------------
------DOWNING---------CARROLL--------suarez---------------
it's a difficult one, we know what we need but it's difficult to see how we are going to get them.
I think we have the correct people in defense, I think we have one half of what we need in central midfield, basically we need someone to lead the line, that person may end up being carroll but that is starting to look like a pipe dream and we need someone who can carry ball forwards at pace and stretch teams and it's highly unlikely that player is downing,
-----------------------------keeper------------------------------------
johnson--------skrtel-------------------agger-------------enrique
-----------------lucas-------------new CM------------------------
-----------------------------gerrard--------------------------------
------new AM---------new striker--------suarez---------------
3 positions to fill and I'm of opinion they should be placed in this priority (or expense)
1) central midfielder
absolutely key with regards to our ability to challenge, ideally would be javi martinez but it's very unlikely he'll come here so we need the next best thing.
2) attacking midfielder
someone who is direct has pace and can stretch teams, eden hazard (no chance) so we need the next best thing.
it's a pity raheem isn't further in his development.
3) striker
I was hoping that carroll could turn things around but that is looking unlikely. we need someone with movement, strength and is equally adapt inside the area as he is outside the area.
that's what we need, unfortunately we have little to attract them expect our name and big wages, I'm not optimistic to be honest.
if you look at the last transfer windows and look at the signings, I think the idea was there but the personnel has let down the system
-----------------------------keeper------------------------------------
johnson--------skrtel-------------------agger-------------enrique
----------------------lucas-------------ADAM------------------------
--------------------------------gerrard--------------------------------
------DOWNING---------CARROLL--------suarez---------------
it's a difficult one, we know what we need but it's difficult to see how we are going to get them.
Great post Ryan and completely agree with you as far as binning Caroll and shoving Gerrard behind Suarez, but who do you have holding. I like Spearing and he is clearly getting better with matchplay but his distribution is awry most of the time, Adam is just absolutely hopeless defensively and Shelvey should be developed as Gerrards replacement in the hole. There is no guarantee Lucas will return to the great form of his last three or four appearances. We have Stirling who could be a gem on the lhs it seems to me the most urgent signing we need is a decent deep midfielder. Cant see any of this happening unless some blert comes in with a bid for Caroll
Yah, I'm with Dirty. Thanks for giving Ryan the opportunity for that great post. If it wasn't for him, I wouldn't have spent the last few minutes reading one of the top posts of the year (so far at least). Thanks Dirty!
And faster.
I think what barnes and ryan say is pretty obvious (no offence), anyone can see where we've gone wrong and continue to go wrong and more importantly what is needed to dig ourselves out of an almighty hole what I am more interested in reading is how we go about fixing our problems when we're not in the champions league and don't pay the biggest wages. that's what I want to read.
'we need world class players' - stop the press!!
We need to just start buying better, 'World Class' is not really the issue. We need a better transfer policy and we have done for years. And bringing in Comolli as some kind of transfer guru, for him then to go and help us buy Stuart Downing and Jordan Henderson whom are hardly unearthed gems and more like overpriced well knowns, is just ridiculous.
We need to start looking at investing in more young talent, we do already but at a significantly younger age than Spurs and Arsenal do, we need to start getting these players who are 18/19 and starting for the likes of Southampton and showing significant talent (not just Southampton, but the World over).
We've had Houllier come in and try to encorporate a strategy of bringing in young French/African talent, then Rafa did the same with South Americans and Spanish players, as though the line of thinking was that those countries were currently the Worlds best, so buying their young players would equate to a greater guarantee of success. It hasn't worked and it was a naive and amateurish ideal.
We need to be more sensible in our approach, we need to stop allowing ourselves to get screwed on transfers, our own willingness to throw away £35m on Carroll led to a Summer of every other selling club thinking they could take the piss out of us. It has to stop, now. We need to be clever, shrewd and frankly, those at the top who are 'supposed' to be great leaders in the game and highly respected when it comes to the basics of the game and the nature of building a side, a club and a philosophy, need to start earning their bread and showing how to make such visions something we can realistically, as fans, invest our trust in.
We need to start looking at investing in more young talent, we do already but at a significantly younger age than Spurs and Arsenal do, we need to start getting these players who are 18/19 and starting for the likes of Southampton and showing significant talent (not just Southampton, but the World over).
We've had Houllier come in and try to encorporate a strategy of bringing in young French/African talent, then Rafa did the same with South Americans and Spanish players, as though the line of thinking was that those countries were currently the Worlds best, so buying their young players would equate to a greater guarantee of success. It hasn't worked and it was a naive and amateurish ideal.
We need to be more sensible in our approach, we need to stop allowing ourselves to get screwed on transfers, our own willingness to throw away £35m on Carroll led to a Summer of every other selling club thinking they could take the piss out of us. It has to stop, now. We need to be clever, shrewd and frankly, those at the top who are 'supposed' to be great leaders in the game and highly respected when it comes to the basics of the game and the nature of building a side, a club and a philosophy, need to start earning their bread and showing how to make such visions something we can realistically, as fans, invest our trust in.
to my mind it's not the quality of player it's the way they are being utilised.
no one is going to tell me that o'neill couldn't get more out of carroll.
no one is going to tell me that fergie couldn't get more out of henderson.
would park (I use him as an example of a player with so so ability who is pretty darn effective when called upon) be anywhere near as effective for us he has been for manu in the past? we have a pretty good track record with defensive players but in terms of attacking players you can count on one hand the players we've improved.
I think our squad is average to good but there is no why on this earth the squad squad doesn't possess enough quality to be closer to 4th place in april.
I'm not going to gloss over Wenger's shortcomings, he's as culpable for their flaws as he is for their positives, but aside from being a past league winner, I'd wager one of the things making Arsenal fans reluctant to throw away what they have is his ability to sign top brass players from obscurity for a pittance. That's an irreplaceable asset. They may need experience and Wenger may well be a stubborn fool in that regard, but you can take nothing away from his transfer strategy with regards to getting the most from a relatively tight budget.
I think that's too simpistic Neil. Would O'Neill have bought Carroll? Would Fergie have bought Henderson? I think the players need the mentality. Park has it in spades, he's a work horse who is also alot more technically gifted than many give him credit for.
I agree that a manager can instil that confidence (and maybe O'Neill would do that with Carroll), where other managers may fail, but we managed to get the best from arguably limited players in Lucas, Kuyt and Skrtel. Contrast their outlooks and determination to the players you've mentioned.
I agree that a manager can instil that confidence (and maybe O'Neill would do that with Carroll), where other managers may fail, but we managed to get the best from arguably limited players in Lucas, Kuyt and Skrtel. Contrast their outlooks and determination to the players you've mentioned.
it's simplistist but it is what it is, we should be getting more out of the players we have. those same players gave a masterclass away to city in the league cup and now they look like strangers.
barnes was my favorite player and is now my favorite pundit as he pretty much always talks sense. couldn't care less about his career as a manager, it's not as if he was managing liverpool.
Half agree, in that the above applies to attacking players. His record with defensive players is pants.
Sure DS, take all the glory mate.
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