Poll How d'yall feel out there ?

[Stulikesdrums]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=40102.msg1099895#msg1099895 date=1273118136]
[quote author=Halmeister link=topic=40102.msg1099893#msg1099893 date=1273117925]
He was a major factor in Alonso leaving, though, Wizardry.

[/quote]

A player he got the best out of and sold for 3 times what he originally paid too.
[/quote]

I would put it to you mate that Rafa did not get the best out of Xabi but that Xabi's desire to get away from Liverpool was the main driving force fir his outstanding form last season. It is also worth pointing out that Rafa touted him all over Europe the season previous and couldn't even get £16 million for him.

 

[My_Blood_Bleeds_Red]

I'm with Ryan on this one.

It's not entirely Rafa's fault. It requires Spartan-like powers to triumph against an army of adversity of overwhelming proportions.

Ok we've now discovered that Rafa isn't King Leonidas everyday (CL 2005 the exception) but that doesn't make him a muppet either.

With the right resources and setting, I truly believe he can still do wonders with this club.

Given he ain't a perfect manager, but then who is ? Even great managers such as Shanks, Ferguson, Capello and Mourinho have their own detractors. Most importantly, he has shown glimpses that he can change and adapt, albeit they have been rare.

It's so easy for the armchair fans to sit and criticize someone but I'd like to see them manage a club of our size. Truth is they probably wouldn't last a day. Some would struggle to manage a kebab shop, let alone one of the biggest football clubs in the world.

 

[Stulikesdrums]

I fucking hate the term 'armchair fans'.

 

[Wizardry]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=40102.msg1099895#msg1099895 date=1273118136]
[quote author=Halmeister link=topic=40102.msg1099893#msg1099893 date=1273117925]
He was a major factor in Alonso leaving, though, Wizardry.

[/quote]

A player he got the best out of and sold for 3 times what he originally paid too.
[/quote]

Sheeesh, I'm ducking back and forward between people just now but that's only half the story Ryan.


True, Rafa sold Xabi for 3 times what he bought him for.

The second part of the story is that Xabi was worth twice as much to the Liverpool team as what Rafa sold him for.


I personally don't give a rats if Rafa makes a loss on the player so long as he can strengthen the team. Hal is completely right, Rafa played a big part in Xabi wanting to go, he tempered that issue by getting a very good price for him but, ultimately, it cost us a lot more than 35m to see him leave the team.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=40102.msg1099956#msg1099956 date=1273129625]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=40102.msg1099895#msg1099895 date=1273118136]
[quote author=Halmeister link=topic=40102.msg1099893#msg1099893 date=1273117925]
He was a major factor in Alonso leaving, though, Wizardry.

[/quote]

A player he got the best out of and sold for 3 times what he originally paid too.
[/quote]

Sheeesh, I'm ducking back and forward between people just now but that's only half the story Ryan.


True, Rafa sold Xabi for 3 times what he bought him for.

The second part of the story is that Xabi was worth twice as much to the Liverpool team as what Rafa sold him for.


I personally don't give a rats if Rafa makes a loss on the player so long as he can strengthen the team. Hal is completely right, Rafa played a big part in Xabi wanting to go, he tempered that issue by getting a very good price for him but, ultimately, it cost us a lot more than 35m to see him leave the team.
[/quote]

You don't need to convince or tell me any of that mate, I know.

Just pointing out that the Alonso saga wasn't all bad. We got a great player for 3/4 years, and made significant money out of him too. But then, you know that anyway.

 

[Wizardry]

[quote author=My_Blood_Bleeds_Red link=topic=40102.msg1099939#msg1099939 date=1273128752]
I'm with Ryan on this one.

It's not entirely Rafa's fault. It requires Spartan-like powers to triumph against an army of adversity of overwhelming proportions.

Ok we've now discovered that Rafa isn't King Leonidas everyday (CL 2005 the exception) but that doesn't make him a muppet either.

With the right resources and setting, I truly believe he can still do wonders with this club.

Given he ain't a perfect manager, but then who is ? Even great managers such as Shanks, Ferguson, Capello and Mourinho have their own detractors. Most importantly, he has shown glimpses that he can change and adapt, albeit they have been rare.

It's so easy for the armchair fans to sit and criticize someone but I'd like to see them manage a club of our size. Truth is they probably wouldn't last a day. Some would struggle to manage a kebab shop, let alone one of the biggest football clubs in the world.


[/quote]

Stu's comment aside, that's an excellent post mate.

The true debate is whether the rare occasions of adaptability that you mention are enough to inspire confidence that he can succeed. I personally don't believe so but he is still not the only reason for our failure.

 

[Mojo]

Like I've been gang raped by Rafa & the Yanks...and it was being filmed by Lucas!

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=40102.msg1099885#msg1099885 date=1273112658]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=40102.msg1099883#msg1099883 date=1273112194]
Rafa bears the lion's share of the blame.

His fans can talk about wagebills hashadtoselltobuy beenshaftedbyyanks nomoney motherfuckingsofasandlampshades as much as they like.
[/quote]

No harm mate, but that's naive and misses the point by a mile.

It's like blaming the Titanic for not having enough lifeboats. DON'T HIT THE FUCKING ICEBERG IN THE FIRST PLACE.
[/quote]Hmmmm. But it was the Captains fault the Titanic hit the iceberg as he allowed Bruce Ismay the White star line representative to goad him into exceeding safe and sensible speed in the middle of the night with continued ice warnings coming in.
Are you trying to say it's Gerrards fault.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

Option 4.

 

[Fabio]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=40102.msg1100006#msg1100006 date=1273133629]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=40102.msg1099885#msg1099885 date=1273112658]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=40102.msg1099883#msg1099883 date=1273112194]
Rafa bears the lion's share of the blame.

His fans can talk about wagebills hashadtoselltobuy beenshaftedbyyanks nomoney motherfuckingsofasandlampshades as much as they like.
[/quote]

No harm mate, but that's naive and misses the point by a mile.

It's like blaming the Titanic for not having enough lifeboats. DON'T HIT THE FUCKING ICEBERG IN THE FIRST PLACE.
[/quote]Hmmmm. But it was the Captains fault the Titanic hit the iceberg as he allowed Bruce Ismay the White star line representative to goad him into exceeding safe and sensible speed in the middle of the night with continued ice warnings coming in.
Are you trying to say it's Gerrards fault.
[/quote]

*imagines franklyfrank with massive erection*

 

[Hansern]

Come on Ryan, you don't really mean that do you.

Of course the owners are mostly to blame, mainly because they havent provided the neseccary funds at all times.

But Rafas transfer dealings in the last 2 years have been shocking. And the teams unbalance now is his fault.

His constant changing of personell, bringing quantity over quality so many times. Freezing out certain players, robotlike man management and some substitutions that baffles nearly everyone in the football world. Defensive tactics and shite line ups.

That said, he's also done a good job. But it's time for him to go. We need new ideas and to move forward.

 

[singlerider]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=40102.msg1099876#msg1099876 date=1273110860]
Fucked off that for the most part people blame Rafa for the utter shambles that our club is in.

[/quote]

I don't think that's really true Ry.

I'm a big detractor of Rafa, but anyone with any sense can see that you can't simplify it down to a choice between one or t'other - obviously it's a combination of a number of factors, all of which have contributed to the shambles we see. That said, there's no point in trying to make out like Rafa has been blameless in all this and merely a victim of circumstance, he's equally as culpable in this shitfest of a season and the overall state of things.

I mean, let's break it down - the owners:

• 
  [li]fucked us on the stadium
  dicked Rafa about trying to go behind his back for Klinsmann
  saddled us with debt
  made an absolute mockery of the club by bickering like old women
  missed a massive opportunity to invest last summer and push on for the title
  have yet to fuck off when they should have jumped ship ages ago
  gave Rafa a spanking brand new contract when it may have been better to wait and see[/li]

Rafa has:

• [li]bought badly, often - not just buying the wrong player but buying for the wrong position or not prioritising correctly
  dicked some of the players about trying to sell them off
  failed to learn from his mistakes
  failed to adapt his approach to suit the league
  spent too much time trying to play mind games with the media instead of concentrating on the game in hand
  refused to accept any sort of culpability for his mistakes[/li]

Obviously these are just the negatives, but on both sides there are some pretty fundamental fuck ups that are basic managment skills: reward success or good performance, address underperformance quickly and effectively, set realistic and achievable targets and meet them, plan for unforeseen circumstances and have a Plan B when the shit hits the fan, support and motivate your staff, build a strong team ethic and adapt to challenging situations so that despite personal differences a good working relationship is maintained.

It's not fucking rocket science, this is basic shit that has been neglected at both levels, and while there is an argument that a culture feeds down from the top and can be all-pervading, but as a professional this is the sort of thing you should be able to deal with and overcome - and that goes equally for the players.

I dunno, it's all just one big clusterfuck really

 

[Whaddapie]

I've never been more depressed in my life.

 

[manwithnoname]

We're in the unique position of being equally coorect in blaming the owners, the management, the coaching, the scouting and the players

Hooray!

Massive bunch of cunts

 

[peterhague]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=40102.msg1100454#msg1100454 date=1273169113]
We're in the unique position of being equally coorect in blaming the owners, the management, the coaching, the scouting and the players

Hooray!

Massive bunch of cunts
[/quote]


like the dove from above!

 

[Atlas]

[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=40102.msg1100453#msg1100453 date=1273168981]
I've never been more depressed in my life.
[/quote]


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[FoxForceFive]

[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=40102.msg1099683#msg1099683 date=1273090517]
You need a 'so confused I no longer have any emotions and am just numbly waiting to see what happens to us' option.

[/quote]

This for me.

I'm trying to remain detached from it all but I'm hurting, seriously hurting, deep inside. It's hateful cos there's seemingly no end to this.

 

[Squiggles]

I think we should all log onto Pompey forums to cheer ourselves up a bit.

 

[spider-Neil]

I'm hoping we don't do a 'leeds' and slide down the table into mediocrity unable to get oursleves back int the elite. I've never been more fearful for liverpool's future.

 

[Avmenon]

Unlikely though; Rafa's not going to get any more money to piss away.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=40102.msg1099697#msg1099697 date=1273091191]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40102.msg1099694#msg1099694 date=1273090996]
I desperately need to see some change at the club. Like Andy, I'm bored to fuck with Rafa, his excuses, his media games, his team selections, his transfer dealings and his shit goatee.

[/quote]

I can't remember the timing, but is there a correlation between him growing his goatee and turning ridiculous?
[/quote]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/may/07/rafael-benitez-beard-liverpool

 

[Sunny]

[quote author=Stulikesdrums link=topic=40102.msg1099949#msg1099949 date=1273129318]
I fucking hate the term 'armchair fans'.
[/quote]


More of a "pouffee" man are we Stu ?

 

[mark1975]

I actually still like Rafa, I just don't think he's the man for the job and his constant shifting of blame has left a real sour taste that I just can't get rid of.

My big worry is that behind the scenes we've started to build something, at least in terms of staff and moving in the right direction with the young lads at the club (so it would seem anyway). If he moves on will we have to start all that again?

Then there's Torres, Gerrard, Masher etc. I honestly can't see a Summer without at least one of them going.

The last two transfer windows have been disastrous, and regardless of issues over the Xabi/Keane money, we've still essentially had in the region of £80m to throw on players, which could have put us in a healthy position, but we've more or less wasted all of it. Even the Johnson signing, at least to logic of it, is questionable.

Not good. So for him to have the audacity to say "we need 5 players" is just fucking rich.

 

[Fabio]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=40102.msg1100493#msg1100493 date=1273171766]
I think we should all log onto Pompey forums to cheer ourselves up a bit.
[/quote]

least they might win a trophy


waaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!