Has the Gerrard experiment failed?

[Modo]

As you all know, last season Brendan decided that Gerrard could do a job as DM.
Some posters here were worried, but due to our "attack is the best defence policy" the change was deemed a success as we battled our way to the top of the table.
However, during the last 5-6 games of the season some were having doubts again, due to the amount of goals we were conceding.

This season its become quite evident to some that Gerrard just isn't the right player for that position.

So what's your take on it?

Personally, I'd like it's say that its not about Lucas, its about having a good DM on the pitch.
If Mascherano was around, I'd definitely want him to start, but for now we only have Lucas who is capable of doing a job there.

 

[red_maradona]

No. I was at the Bernabeu yesterday and when he came on he transformed us. The reception he got even from the Madrid fans was telling. He is not living off history. No one in our squad has got his passing range to start with. Lack of movement up front is a tragic waste of his talents.

 

[Ryan]

He's not a defensive midfielder. Never has been, never will be. People point to his assists, penalites, passing, influence, etc - but for every goal we score though him, we're probably conceding twice as many the other way due in no small part to his inability to read the game and act as an effective defensive midfielder should.

I don't doubt Rodgers' tactics (which I'm becoming more and more convinced he's making up as he goes) are having an impact on any (not just Gerrard) DM's ability to effectively play in the role, but the fact remains that we ship far too many goal, and the DM is accountable for that.

Gerrard seems to see the role more as 'quarterback' type, someone who dictates the game, starts the flow of passes, and occassionally has to charge into a tackle. That's about 50% of the role. Actually, that's being generous. It's not. Fo a DM, it should be about 30-40% of the role. Our problem is that neither of our other two midfielders are capable of playing that passing play-maker role. Henderson's fucking rubbish at it. And Joe Allen seems to be there to fill the gaps left by the marauding Moreno.

So we've got Gerrard playing this horrible amalgamation of roles; part DM, part playmaker, part all-round midfielder, part tempo-organiser. All because of the mismatch of a system around him, and because of players not having defined roles. The only players in our system who actually know what they should be doing - the fullbacks - are coincidentally the only players that are playing well. everyone else in the side looks confused, and they're all playing shite. even with that Rodgers decided to fuck that up for the full-backs last week and go 3-5-2. H clearly wasn't happy with 2 players in the side knowing what they should be doing, so he altered it to ensure all 11 players hadn't a fucking clue.

So anyway, I think Gerrard could maybe play the role, but he needs two better midfielders beside him, or at least one who can dictate the play. Can might become that player, but it'll take a few years, and he looks a little too raw right now. Alonso was (is) that player, but Brodge decided against looking at him in the summer - probably because his wage demands wouldn't allow it, but anyway.

So we'll carry on. And if we get a fit Sturridge back (which will in turn free up space for Sterling), then we'll climb the table again. Don't be fooled by all of this "high pressure, pressing with the ball" chat out of Rodgers. We didn't even do that least season when we were raping sides. We were just quick and incisive half a dozen times a game, and managed to get 3-4 goals out of it.

We're even less so now. We're slow, ponderous, unorganised, and led by a DM who doesn't know what his role is. I feel sorry for him, cos for all he's given us - he at least deserves to not still think at the age of 34 (or whatever he is) that the responsibility to be the 'do everything' man is still on his shoulders.

 

[Modo]

Found the old thread from January when he started playing in that position but I won't post it considering how appalling it is deemed to be.

But here's what I wrote about it and I'm only posting it again because I'm lazy:

A defensive midfielder doesn't have to play "Hollywood balls" all the time. He doesn't always have to turn defence into attack in an instance. It's mostly about being disciplined, staying in your position and playing it simple.

The big difference between Gerrard and Lucas in that position is that Lucas tends to stop attacks further up the pitch. He's better at anticipating where the ball is supposed to be and he allows us to keep possession by playing it simple.
All those challenges Gerrard won in and around the box is a sign of pressure. Those long red arrows probably created that pressure and he needs to realise that he doesn't always have to find the perfect pass. I don't have to tell you that how important possession is especially away from home.

I understand the idea of playing Gerrard there. I get that we're trying to use his passing to quickly turn defence into attack but I wasn't impressed by what I saw yesterday.
Sure, I'm willing to give Gerrard a little time there considering how the game ended but after the first half I didn't want to see him in that position again.

 

[Frogfish]

He's not a defensive midfielder. Never has been, never will be. People point to his assists, penalites, passing, influence, etc - but for every goal we score though him, we're probably conceding twice as many the other way due in no small part to his inability to read the game and act as an effective defensive midfielder should.

I don't doubt Rodgers' tactics (which I'm becoming more and more convinced he's making up as he goes) are having an impact on any (not just Gerrard) DM's ability to effectively play in the role, but the fact remains that we ship far too many goal, and the DM is accountable for that.

Gerrard seems to see the role more as 'quarterback' type, someone who dictates the game, starts the flow of passes, and occassionally has to charge into a tackle. That's about 50% of the role. Actually, that's being generous. It's not. Fo a DM, it should be about 30-40% of the role. Our problem is that neither of our other two midfielders are capable of playing that passing play-maker role. Henderson's fucking rubbish at it. And Joe Allen seems to be there to fill the gaps left by the marauding Moreno.

So we've got Gerrard playing this horrible amalgamation of roles; part DM, part playmaker, part all-round midfielder, part tempo-organiser. All because of the mismatch of a system around him, and because of players not having defined roles. The only players in our system who actually know what they should be doing - the fullbacks - are coincidentally the only players that are playing well. everyone else in the side looks confused, and they're all playing shite. even with that Rodgers decided to fuck that up for the full-backs last week and go 3-5-2. H clearly wasn't happy with 2 players in the side knowing what they should be doing, so he altered it to ensure all 11 players hadn't a fucking clue.

So anyway, I think Gerrard could maybe play the role, but he needs two better midfielders beside him, or at least one who can dictate the play. Can might become that player, but it'll take a few years, and he looks a little too raw right now. Alonso was (is) that player, but Brodge decided against looking at him in the summer - probably because his wage demands wouldn't allow it, but anyway.

So we'll carry on. And if we get a fit Sturridge back (which will in turn free up space for Sterling), then we'll climb the table again. Don't be fooled by all of this "high pressure, pressing with the ball" chat out of Rodgers. We didn't even do that least season when we were raping sides. We were just quick and incisive half a dozen times a game, and managed to get 3-4 goals out of it.

We're even less so now. We're slow, ponderous, unorganised, and led by a DM who doesn't know what his role is. I feel sorry for him, cos for all he's given us - he at least deserves to not still think at the age of 34 (or whatever he is) that the responsibility to be the 'do everything' man is still on his shoulders.

In parts one of the worst posts I've ever seen from you. So much supposition on what players' and BR are thinking. Conceding twice as many goals as he scores due to Gerrard's inability as a DM ? Alonso said he didn't want to come back to Liverpool so why is that BR deciding not to go for him (I'm sure we can match any salary Bayern are paying)? We didn't press high last season ? Christ my TV screen definitely has a very weird distortion then.

I guess you are just venting.

 

[Frogfish]

I don't have to tell you that how important possession is especially away from home.

The difference between our play in 2012/13 and 2013/14 perfectly illustrates how wrong that comment is. What is required is precision, creative, pacey, incisive attacking play (not possession for possession's sake) - something we seem to be bereft of so far in 2014/15. That can come from players around the box or, as was often the case last season, from defence-splitting passing from players like Coutinho or Gerrard. The way Gerrard creates space and attacks by stretching the defence with those 'Hollywood' balls out to either wing, Suarez or Sturridge was also a key factor last season in our attacking play.

I'm not saying I'm all for Gerrard at DM, I'd prefer him further forward and a real, quality, DM in place behind him. I'm just not convinced that our problems all originate from his position and that although he has weaknesses, as all players do, I feel that his contributions are actually being belittled not appreciated.

 

[Modo]

By telling how wrong my opinion on possession is are you saying that possession isn't important at all?
In that case I have to ask you if you enjoyed the football we played when Houllier was in charge?

 

[Frogfish]

By telling how wrong my opinion on possession is are you saying that possession isn't important at all?
In that case I have to ask you if you enjoyed the football we played when Houllier was in charge?

Funny. I don't remember saying it's not important at all. Must be an age thing.

 

[Mersey86]

I think the point was that some of our most destructive football was played against teams who had the majority of possession - not necessarily away from home, the best examples probably being the home games against Arsenal and Everton. Our attacking was at its most dazzling against teams who were not sitting back and trying to negate us.

 

[Hansern]

That experiment got us 2nd place in the league, 1 loss in 19 games in 2014 and CL.
Failed?

 

[cloggypop]

We do not play with a DM. Brendan would have bought one by now if he wanted one.

 

[rurikbird]

If we are going to use the word "experiment," then let's do what scientists do and consider the evidence:

1. The 2nd half of last season after Gerrard was moved to DM was the best football we played in years. Just stop there and consider how strong this piece of evidence is what are the implications. You can't play great football as a team if one of the key elements (and Gerrard's position as a playmaker is as key as it gets) is weak. Once again, Gerrard at DM was a key element of a mechanism that worked beautifully. You have to think thrice before you rush to replace that. And lest you forget, our midfield dominated most games against any quality of opponent (only Man City's midfield probably played ours to a draw). The likes of Spurs and United were played off the park and those games were won in midfield first and foremost.

2. The argument that Gerrard at DM was always deeply flawed idea and we were essentially carried by Suarez alone last season is simply wrong. Suarez was with our team for 3 seasons and while he was steadily improving his level since he first joined, it's clear that our improvement last season was due to the rest of the team finding strong chemistry and starting to play closer to Suarez's level rather than just one world-class player dragging a mediocre team along. To claim otherwise is something I would expect to hear from a manc rather than a Liverpool supporter. Besides, many of you will remember that by the end of the season Suarez actually started running out of gas and there were games where he was carried by the well-oiled team mechanism behind him not any less than he carried the team. Same goes for Sturridge: where was he before he came to Liverpool? He benefited from the system Rodgers has built at least as much as the team has benefited from his qualities.

3. Our problems this season are obvious: we lost our entire strikeforce and don't have speed and cutting edge up front. And the defense continues to leak goals, many of them self-inflicted, stupid and entirely avoidable, such as goals from set-pieces (what is it, 7 or 8 now?), Moreno's inexperience (directly responsible for 2 goals), Mignolet's uneven form etc. I don't think you can blame Gerrard for too many of the goals we conceded this season (and I know because I did blame him when I thought he deserved it). Overall, midfield has been a lot less problematic for us than attack or defense, despite some unfortunate injuries and constant changes in tactics and formation. There is no reason to mess with the least problematic area of our team while the two most problematic ones are not fixed.

Lastly, I want to link to my long post about this very matter from a couple of weeks ago. I am not dogmatic in my stance on this and my opinion can always move with the evidence. But at this point, the evidence for me is clear that Gerrard playing in his current role is much more of a strength for us than a problem.

 

[mark1975]

That experiment got us 2nd place in the league, 1 loss in 19 games in 2014 and CL.
Failed?

Quite. We're not scoring goals and the defensive problems in the team are being highlighted as a result. Lucas has played games and we've still conceded, so has Can, so has Allen. The defensive issue is as much a collective system problem as an individual one.

The original thread was filled with people saying to give Gerrard the chance to settle into the role. If I remember correctly, in one thread, Modo wasn't even banging on about "DM's" as much as trying to compare a performance by Alonso, who has played there throughout his career, to Gerrard who had been used there a couple of times (at the time). It was a moot point, he had many of the attributes that Alonso has, but I think most people know and have expressed (not just now) that he isn't the most disciplined of players, by any stretch.

It hasn't worked for the most part, that I'll agree with, I don't want to see him there, I don't want to see him play every week either, he needs to be moved forward and played sparingly, but there's some selective thinking going on, at times we were devastating last season and that was with him, or other players who aren't particularly great there (Allen), doing a job in that role. Lucas aside, who was injured alot anyway, we didn't have a natural defensive/holding player. We got away with it for the most part, the standouts are the mistake against West Brom between him and Toure and the slip (which could have happened to anyone) against Chelsea, with I guess several games where, as a unit, we just didn't control sides well enough. That wasn't singularly down to the holding position, it was down to an open system that could only play one way and players who are prone to fuck ups (Toure, Skrtel, Johnson, Ming and now Lovren, Moreno etc).

 

[Whirly]

Ryan and Modo pretty much nailed every major point I had in mind.

People have a very selective memory of our performances last season.

 

[Modo]

If we are going to use the word "experiment," then let's do what scientists do and consider the evidence:

1. The 2nd half of last season after Gerrard was moved to DM was the best football we played in years. Just stop there and consider how strong this piece of evidence is what are the implications. You can't play great football as a team if one of the key elements (and Gerrard's position as a playmaker is as key as it gets) is weak. Once again, Gerrard at DM was a key element of a mechanism that worked beautifully. You have to think thrice before you rush to replace that. And lest you forget, our midfield dominated most games against any quality of opponent (only Man City's midfield probably played ours to a draw). The likes of Spurs and United were played off the park and those games were won in midfield first and foremost.

The first half of the season also included our demolition of Spurs and our impressive performance away against City. Two games Gerrard didn't play in. During the first half of the season we also missed Suarez for like 5 league games.
Sturridge was out for a few games as well and we were first or second in the league until we played City and Chelsea in December.

So was it really that bad when Gerrard wasn't playing in DM?

Also, the original question covers this season so far, are you happy with his performances in DM?

 

[mark1975]

He didn't say it was bad when Gerrard didn't play there, also the City game you highlighted, we lost! Funnily enough, the killer goal came through us being carved open on the break with a non existent midfield leaving the centre halves exposed.

 

[mark1975]

Also , if the original post covers this season so far, why are you so intent in referencing last year and, yet again, an old thread?

 

[mark1975]

Seems a bit of a daft time to raise it anyway, given a) he hasnt been restricted to that role as much and b) we're still pissing goals and losing.

 

[davud graham]

The midfield against Madrid looked better that it has for weeks whilst Lucas was in the deeper role (whether you want to call it DM or not). His passing was composed, mostly accurate ( 1 very poor pass in the 1st half aside ) and at times incisive. He didn't attempt very many longer balls to a forward that was isolated and surrounded by defenders, he mostly tried to work the ball through midfield by exploiting the movement of the others midfielders by passing the ball at the right time.
When Gerrard came on he started to play supposed Hollywood balls ( he wasn't the only one doing this at that time) as we seemed to think that we could get through Real Madrids defence with one perfect through ball. Unlikely to happen unless they make a big mistake which they didn't. It would have made more sense to me if he'd brought Gerrard on for Joe Allen which would have meant he received the ball 15 yards further up the pitch, in more space and his subsequent forward pass should have had more chance of success. Joe Allen had worked hard in the game up to that point but looked tired in the last 20 minutes and his game suffered as a result. If Gerrard had replaced him it may have given a more solid base in midfield whilst also giving us more creativity and threat going forward. As it was the last 20 petered out with us being neither a threat going forward and us not keeping possession very well in own half. You could also make a case for henderson to come on for lallana who like allen tired towards the end of the match.

 

[gkmacca]

Didn't we have this (long) conversation about Gerrard ages ago?? Most of surely made their views known then. Seems a bit odd to dredge it up again. What's surely more pertinent now is who to play in Gerrard's position.

 

[mark1975]

Didn't we have this (long) conversation about Gerrard ages ago?? Most of surely made their views known then. Seems a bit odd to dredge it up again. What's surely more pertinent now is who to play in Gerrard's position.

We all know Lucas can do it, but he's not essential to the role in every game and he can't perform that role perfectly every game, we still concede goals and he still has his infuriating flaws, but there are games when we need someone in that role, who will stay disciplined, mop up and play the right ball. No complaints from me there, particularly in the big games where we tend to lose it in midfield, sometimes we need players who will maintain possession and provide a shield for the defense, that's why we've got a squad. Like I said, I'd rather see Gerrard used sparingly and further forward, but with the right set up he can play that role. He's not singularly detrimental to the gaping defensive liabilities we have, there are other, equally or more pressing worries on that note in the longterm.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

Given that we are so poor at the back, I think we need Lucas in every game until we get a bit of consistency. Once we have that, and some more confidence, we can go with the "riskier" options.

 

[ILD]

I never liked Gerrard in his 'new role', whether it's DM or QB. I would play him further forward and if he doesn't have the legs then he should be rested accordingly.

FWIW, I would give Lucas a go at DM on Saturday, with Gerrard and Henderson/Allen in front of him.

 

[Mors]

Gerrard is a great player, even still now at the age he is. But, he is a terrible DM. Lucas is shit, but he's not even half a good a DM as Lucas. He either needs to play next to a proper DM, or, player further up the pitch infront of a proper DM.
I wonder if Can has been brought in to be this proper, out and out DM? He's not looking the part yet if he has.

 

[Wizardry]

That's one of the few times in recent memory where Ryan has put in the effort to think out a post and really got some things wrong / some things right.

The idea that we didn't press teams last season has, I suspect, just been added to support the theory on Rodgers not knowing what he's doing despite it's obvious inaccuracy. There were plenty of goals we scored last season which came purely and simply from our pressing - Suarez was particularly a benefactor of such goals.

The idea that Gerrard can't "read the play" is an absolute myth hammered countless times. Didi, Scholes, Xabi, Benitez just to name a few are all respected figures who all described Gerrards ability to "read" the game as outstanding. Benitez said this was the reason why he could play Gerrard at DM, CM, AM, RM or RB and he would be world class in all of them. Gerrard's so called inability to read the play is another myth propagated for specific agendas.

Gerrard doesn't play the way a traditional DM would; he's not a destroyer going around breaking up play by putting a foot in or just a toe. For us the problem is that that's pretty much what we need from a DM right now.

I suspect most would very much agree with the observation that Gerrard is playing an amalgamation of roles; he's supposed to dictate play and he's supposed to be the play maker as well as pose a goal threat. When he's got an abundance of movement in front of him then we get away with it but when he doesn't then he looks unsettled with too many roles to fulfil and not managing to do it with any of them.

For what it's worth I think Rurik has got it pretty much spot on in his post and giving my 2 cents worth would be rehashing most of what he's said. Our defense and midfield will improve markedly when we get movement back in the final third. That movement is the key and possibly the number one quality that Suarez bought with him. Last season the movement was all about three players and all we've had for most of this season is the pupil who's started running on tired legs. I really do think this is the area Rodgers has failed badly in - how much of it is his fault and how much rests with the transfer committee is the subject of another thread.

 

[rurikbird]

The idea that Gerrard can't "read the play" is an absolute myth hammered countless times. Didi, Scholes, Xabi, Benitez just to name a few are all respected figures who all described Gerrards ability to "read" the game as outstanding. Benitez said this was the reason why he could play Gerrard at DM, CM, AM, RM or RB and he would be world class in all of them. Gerrard's so called inability to read the play is another myth propagated for specific agendas.

Thank you for that paragraph. Yeah, this myth has been driving me crazy too. Gerrard can't read the game? Of all the accusations against Gerrard that's the one that makes the least sense.

 

[Wiberg]

Ryan and Modo pretty much nailed every major point I had in mind.

People have a very selective memory of our performances last season.

This. Gerrard at DM/HM was and is a defensive disaster. Anybody who says any different is clueless imho.

 

[Lippy]

It's a massive elephant in the room sized problem. That role is just not working. Play Lucas or Can in there and move Gerrard further up to replace Hendo who's been shite and is playing shithouse safety football. Look at this video from the weekend - it's creating massive gaps in our midfield and is sucking other players out of position.

 

[Best Believe It]

It's a massive elephant in the room sized problem. That role is just not working. Play Lucas or Can in there and move Gerrard further up to replace Hendo who's been shite and is playing shithouse safety football. Look at this video from the weekend - it's creating massive gaps in our midfield and is sucking other players out of position.

How much of it is Gerrard's interpretation of the role, and how much of it is Gerrard's normal response to things not going great - trying to do everyone's job himself.

 

[SummerOnions]

Yep. You can just pass around him. Until Rodgers figures out how to play a formation that suits him we'll keep on stuttering