Gerrard to Saudi Arabia

[localny]

They’re building their soft power - which includes building bridges in the west for sure to be liked and appreciated - with shared values - all this stuff matters when it comes to public opinion and political decisions: it’s why Qatar bought the World Cup. Soft power.

I’m not advocating the Islamic world dismantle their political systems as we have seen how it can go in the direction of a failed state but I’m Not sure the only choices are failed state or a monarchy dictatorship. Surely you’re not suggesting those are the only two choices.

You make it seem like you can easily avoid injustice and be safe in that system. Life doesn’t work that way.

I’m thinking there’s a middle ground with no torture, murder of teens, suppression of women, state kidnapping, and random executions. They can choose to moderate all the repression if they wish.

 

[Dreambeliever]

It would make a BIG difference to many, who used to respect him and wish he'd not sold his soul like this. Who hoped there was more about him that this...

And before you say that we don't matter, and it doesn't matter, it matters to US. That's why we're dissapointed.

So drawing the line when others take money directly? Indirect benefit doesn’t matter?

 

[StevieM]

You honestly think they are doing this to be loved in the West ? - what are you on about. They are doing this because people in the middle east and Asia love football, and they can afford to do this.

Everyone keeps going on about human rights - like they understand the culture over there in the middle east. It's really simple - live your life how you want to as long as it's within the Islamic framework and does not involve anything that resembles insurrection. For those of you who think getting rid of these Kings/Emirs/Dictators - think very carefully and just look at the disaster that is Iraq/Libya. A long time ago the "Christian" Foreign Secretary of Saddam Hussain was asked about the consequences of the then Iraqi regime being overthrown, his response was really simple "You have no idea the nutters that would come and replace us, and how hard it is to keep them locked up and down" - well we all know who these nutters are now. The way I see it, and the way you should see it for the middle east - the people have the leaders in place that is right for their society.

I hope the Saudi league really does take off and does well, the changes taking place under MBS are long overdue.

I hate to pick holes in your argument, but - “living your life how you want as long as it's within the Islamic framework” is not “living your life how you want”, it’s living your life how you’re told to - which we all do to varying degrees.

Also - if your definition of insurrection is posting negative comments on social media then you’re beyond help.

I’m also tired of seeing the excuse that “acting like a cunt” is acceptable because someone might come along and “act like a bigger cunt” - that’s just legitimising & normalising “being a cunt” and raising the “Cunt Baseline”.

 

[Hansern]

Rio Ferdinand. Jeezeez how stupid can you get.

 

[moron]

I hate to pick holes in your argument, but - “living your life how you want as long as it's within the Islamic framework” is not “living your life how you want”, it’s living your life how you’re told to - which we all do to varying degrees.

Also - if your definition of insurrection is posting negative comments on social media then you’re beyond help.

I’m also tired of seeing the excuse that “acting like a cunt” is acceptable because someone might come along and “act like a bigger cunt” - that’s just legitimising & normalising “being a cunt” and raising the “Cunt Baseline”.

The problem is - you guys just don't accept that a large part of this Earth is Islamic - and the majority (like 98%) of those nations are more than willing to adhere to the national faith. Also, social media is like a poison for many nations - including here in the West, where things that may happen infrequently are made to look like frequent incidents causing unnecessary out-cry and paranoia - it's like everyone reads the fucking Daily Mail. As for legitimising & normalising being a cunt - it assumes I think Saddam, MBS and other dictators were cunts. This might scare you - I actually don't, they did/do what they need to do to maintain the order and ultimately save a lot more lives than the diss-order and chaos that would take place if they were not there. What you should have learnt from the criminal actions of western governments in both Iraq and Libya, is that those dictators are actually stopping hard-core fundamentalists and border-line criminals from taking power.

It's like in Pakistan - when Western reports kept asking the then Prime-Minister Musharaf about freedom and all that bollox - his reply was very simple regarding his own people and their attitudes: "In Britain if you have a crime season and the police block off that area, which may inconvenience people, people will go around the area that has been blocked off. In Pakistan if you were to build a wall around that crime season, rather than go around that wall, they will want to climb over it". You just don't know how people are.

 

[StevieM]

The problem is - you guys just don't accept that a large part of this Earth is Islamic - and the majority (like 98%) of those nations are more than willing to adhere to the national faith. Also, social media is like a poison for many nations - including here in the West, where things that may happen infrequently are made to look like frequent incidents causing unnecessary out-cry and paranoia - it's like everyone reads the fucking Daily Mail. As for legitimising & normalising being a cunt - it assumes I think Saddam, MBS and other dictators were cunts. This might scare you - I actually don't, they did/do what they need to do to maintain the order and ultimately save a lot more lives than the diss-order and chaos that would take place if they were not there. What you should have learnt from the criminal actions of western governments in both Iraq and Libya, is that those dictators are actually stopping hard-core fundamentalists and border-line criminals from taking power.

It's like in Pakistan - when Western reports kept asking the then Prime-Minister Musharaf about freedom and all that bollox - his reply was very simple regarding his own people and their attitudes: "In Britain if you have a crime season and the police block off that area, which may inconvenience people, people will go around the area that has been blocked off. In Pakistan if you were to build a wall around that crime season, rather than go around that wall, they will want to climb over it". You just don't know how people are.

I could start with the 98% of the world is Islamic for being nonsense - but the central point is, it doesn’t matter - If you want to live your life adhering to Islam - then that’s fine - the problem only starts when you want me to live my life to your values and won’t accept compromise.

I’m not sure MBS & Saddam are quite the Nobel Peace Price candidates you think they are - they’re not doing what they do or did for the benefit of others.

That’s not to say I agree with the actions of “the west” or believe their successive approaches are anything other that self serving and/or opportunistic (at best).

However - the right to protest and the right to question is fundamental - I don’t care where it is or what that grievance is - from grumbling on Facebook about people driving under the speed limit to being able to call out our “leaders” for the things they say and do.

The shame of it all is that it’s just about money.

 

[Raz]

Maybe not catching a phone to the face no but who doesn't wanna be surrounded by a bunch of young people wanting to take photos with you?

Maybe it took Bobby a bit by surprise & wasn't expecting it....things are a little more......tranquility up at Merseyside.

Me for a start! And they are all blokes with painted on beards. If it was a bunch of women.... maybe.

 

[binomial]

with painted on beards

😀😀😱

If it was a bunch of women.... maybe.

What if it were a bunch of women....with painted on vagina's.

 

[Raz]

😀😀😱



What if it were a bunch of women....with painted on vagina's.

Not sure how to answer that!

 

[moron]

I could start with the 98% of the world is Islamic for being nonsense - but the central point is, it doesn’t matter - If you want to live your life adhering to Islam - then that’s fine - the problem only starts when you want me to live my life to your values and won’t accept compromise.

I’m not sure MBS & Saddam are quite the Nobel Peace Price candidates you think they are - they’re not doing what they do or did for the benefit of others.

That’s not to say I agree with the actions of “the west” or believe their successive approaches are anything other that self serving and/or opportunistic (at best).

However - the right to protest and the right to question is fundamental - I don’t care where it is or what that grievance is - from grumbling on Facebook about people driving under the speed limit to being able to call out our “leaders” for the things they say and do.

The shame of it all is that it’s just about money.

I never said 98% of the world is Islamic, I said 98% of the populations in those Islamic countries.

All of these dictatorships and kingdoms have the right to protest, but not the type where people gather and do the stuff they were doing in France the other day. Usually there are chiefs in those arab lands that have the ear of the members of countries leadership that can take care of such worries. That's how such things have been resolved. By the way - these dictators know their limits, its well known in Iraq that the leadership even under Saddam did not have full control over the population in Fullujah because of their extremely aggressive tribal nature. Both Saudi and Iraq have always had to contend with interference from Iran, so you often find there is a trickle of money and influence from Iran that sometimes leads to violence and political arrests.

 

[localny]

There's a long way from the Protests in France (extreme expression), and the Saudi's jailing people for 34 years for tweeting (extreme repression).

It would be silly to think typical western democracy can happen in countries who don't have the culture for it. Nor do those countries want it. BUT, you don't have to execute people for having an opinion.

I'll just say this about the Saudis - the greatest propaganda mind trick I've ever seen was when we saw 15 of the 19 Saudis were involved in 9/11. And the Americans gave the Saudis a pass and invaded Iraq and Afghanistan instead. Because of $

They know money and capitalism trumps democracy in the west. The Russians and Chinese saw it too

 

[moron]

There's a long way from the Protests in France (extreme expression), and the Saudi's jailing people for 34 years for tweeting (extreme repression).

It would be silly to think typical western democracy can happen in countries who don't have the culture for it. Nor do those countries want it. BUT, you don't have to execute people for having an opinion.

I'll just say this about the Saudis - the greatest propaganda mind trick I've ever seen was when we saw 15 of the 19 Saudis were involved in 9/11. And the Americans gave the Saudis a pass and invaded Iraq and Afghanistan instead. Because of $

They know money and capitalism trumps democracy in the west. The Russians and Chinese saw it too

You don't know if half these reports are true in terms of the Saudi jail sentences of 34 years for tweeting stuff, it could be just all bollox. Also the execution is probably used in the most harsh circumstances where the individual is unwilling to stop their activities whatever shit they are causing in the country. If you know as an individual that that is the punishment why are you getting involved in the first place ?

As for the 911 - yes that was a very fucked up situation where the US should have looked deeper, but everyone knew those terrorists were backed by the exiled Bin Laden, so the American's had to invade Afghanistan and to be honest am surprised that they did not nuke parts of Afghanistan for 911. The Taliban were given chances to hand them over and they didn't and before 911 there was some Rosy shit going on between the Bush administration and the Taliban government where Bush even sent a cheque of $50M thanking the Taliban for cutting out the narcotics in their country.

 

[Whaddapie]

So drawing the line when others take money directly? Indirect benefit doesn’t matter?

It ALL matters, Pat. I'm against it all. There's NO justification for it.

 

[localny]

Yeah those reports on executions, jail sentences etc come from fairly trustworthy non governmental organizations (NGOS), and the Saudis have a history of this stuff. There's likely no need to try and discredit them.

Anyway, back to Stevie G and his blood money

 

[binomial]

Anyway, back to Stevie G and his blood money

What if Stevie decides to come back home and donate a few million to charity? Or if it goes towards a foodbank somewhere? Or he decides to open up a social youth club or some kind?

 

[Whaddapie]

What if Stevie decides to come back home and donate a few million to charity? Or if it goes towards a foodbank somewhere? Or he decides to open up a social youth club or some kind?

He could have done any / all of those things without going to S.A. He could have done all of that whilst managing Leeds.

 

[binomial]

He could have done any / all of those things without going to S.A. He could have done all of that whilst managing Leeds.

Not everyone has the time which is why you tend focus on this stuff after retirement.

Do you know his future plans? Course not, so how can someone be so quick to judge.

 

[localny]

What if Stevie decides to come back home and donate a few million to charity? Or if it goes towards a foodbank somewhere? Or he decides to open up a social youth club or some kind?

great stuff. Maybe donate to the families of the people being imprisoned and executed. Great solution right there.

 

[binomial]

great stuff. Maybe donate to the families of the people being imprisoned and executed. Great solution right there.

Would it make you "respect him again"

People always wanna be judgmental, beggars belief why you'd wanna inject so much energy and time judging people in your short privileged life. Be grateful for the life you have and that you weren't born into their way of living, stop worrying about other affairs that don't concern you and enjoy life. Look to the positive.

 

[localny]

Mate, thanks for the offer, I appreciate it, but I'm happy with my own perspective. It's not judging, but we the general public have a responsibility to call out poor decisions by our footballing heroes. What kind of a world would we live in, if not.

There's always a concern in the west that we have to guard against our own democracies being undermined because frankly people in power lean authoritarian. Our interactions with Russia (taking their money into banks), and China (same, with more trade), and now perhaps Saudi Arabia have the potential to corrode our own democracies. This sports washing has the potential to do the same. So it's not just about the people in Saudi, it's about us too.

And honestly, I don't know all these people under Saudi regimes, but surely we can't some decency for folks.

And yes, it would make me respect Gerrard. I really think you've hit something there. I think this could be a way to call these footballers bad decisions to account. Nicely done!

 

[Whaddapie]

Not everyone has the time which is why you tend focus on this stuff after retirement.

Do you know his future plans? Course not, so how can someone be so quick to judge.

Nothing you say here changes the fact that he's ALREADY in a position to do anything you suggest, WITHOUT taking their blood money.

And, yes... I'm quick to judge anybody who doesn't have a big issue with the human rights violations that others (localny, StevieM, etc) have already pointed out several times in this thread. I am very aware of my privilege, and it makes me more critical of those who share it (and have more than I), but STILL take their blood money.

 

[binomial]

Nothing you say here changes the fact that he's ALREADY in a position to do anything you suggest, WITHOUT taking their blood money.

And, yes... I'm quick to judge anybody who doesn't have a big issue with the human rights violations that others (localny, StevieM, etc) have already pointed out several times in this thread. I am very aware of my privilege, and it makes me more critical of those who share it (and have more than I), but STILL take their blood money.

Ok but who dictates when he has to do something? Like I say maybe his priorities is seeing his kids grow up to look after themselves then he'll worry about what to do with his money.....Stevie is a good kind hearted man with morals, you can still work in an environment somewhere around the industry you've grown up in your whole life and not approve of their laws, as long as he or anyone else who goes there to earn feel like they're being treated well then I'm sure he'll be happy.

How many people have gone over to the Arab world for one reason or the other? Whether it be for a profession (world cup coverage) or personal matter (vacation)......can they not enjoy their time there whilst also not condoning their human rights? The kingdom of Arabia still has many beautiful countries which is why so many Europeans/Americans vacate there in spite of their governance.

 

[Fabio]

Let's all be blatantly fucking honest here; who actually expected Gerrard to turn this down? Because I've got some magic beans to sell

 

[Richey]

Let's all be blatantly fucking honest here; who actually expected Gerrard to turn this down? Because I've got some magic beans to sell

I didn't think he would turn it down on any kind of moral grounds or anything like that.

I thought that perhaps he might think that it wouldn't help his career though. That managing in the Premier League or Championship might be a better way to go to get his career back on track. I thought that there was a chance that he might turn it down on those grounds.

 

[Raz]

Let's all be blatantly fucking honest here; who actually expected Gerrard to turn this down? Because I've got some magic beans to sell

Or who actually gives a fuck!

 

[Woland]

I didn't think he would turn it down on any kind of moral grounds or anything like that.

I thought that perhaps he might think that it wouldn't help his career though. That managing in the Premier League or Championship might be a better way to go to get his career back on track. I thought that there was a chance that he might turn it down on those grounds.

I think he knows he's shit

 

[Dreambeliever]

It ALL matters, Pat. I'm against it all. There's NO justification for it.

What about using commodities that are backed or owned by the same money?

Because modern day life for western society would be almost impossible to live if you took the stand of saying no to all of it.

 

[Woland]

'Yeah Saudi chops journalists to pieces yet you still have an iPhone' is so fucking pathetic.

Anyone can apply whataboutism to anything in some dick brained effort to determine that everything means nothing.

If that's the case then shut the fuck up. If everything is as equally pointless as everything else then your opinion is definitely worth nowt.

 

[StevieM]

What about using commodities that are backed or owned by the same money?

Because modern day life for western society would be almost impossible to live if you took the stand of saying no to all of it.

There’s a big difference though, between buying something that may be backed by Saudi money and being directly paid by Saudi’s to effectively promote them.

Again, if you do want to remove any sort of morality from the argument, then it boils us as a species down to being purely about the desire for money.

 

[Farkmaster]

I found out when I was an adult that my dad had an offer to work in pharmaceuticals in South Africa, and it would have been a life changing amount of money. He refused because he didn't want us to be raised in a country with apartheid behind a fence with an armed guard he was paying.

I'm not spending much time judging Steven Gerrard, and my dad was a cunt sometimes, but I'm allowed to think Stevie G is a less substantial person and that my dad's moral compass could thump him.