fuck ryan's chalkboard, I'm having first crack

[Oncy]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39782.msg1086579#msg1086579 date=1271005995]
[quote author=Halmeister link=topic=39782.msg1086574#msg1086574 date=1271005808]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39782.msg1086572#msg1086572 date=1271005640]
[quote author=Halmeister link=topic=39782.msg1086571#msg1086571 date=1271005236]
It's so frustrating because it's so simple, but it was a display we've seen so often in recent years. We have got the players for one touch, quick play, but not enough. More often than not we're so easy to play against. I'm at a loss to say whether it's tactics, the personnel or confidence, because we do it so inconsistently. I didn't see the game but it sounds as though we didn't do any of the things you mentioned Spidey, not even from the outset, so that's got to be down to managers instructions. Either that or they're deliberately disobeying him. Or the players he's assembled are incapable of it. Either way it's a fucking shambles.

Spidey, you'd give him another year,yeah? Next year will still be littered with displays like that, just like it has been throughout Rafa's time with us. He hasn't figured out how to combat defensive, organised teams regularly enough yet.

You would never see any other top side as easy to defend against as us.
[/quote]

the reason why I'd give him another year is because stuff off the pitch is influencing stuff on the pitch so I'm taking everything into account not just results.
[/quote]

I agree to an extent. Benitez is the main reason it's going wrong on the pitc, though. Not Tom and Jerry.
[/quote]

it kind of goes hand in hand though. for example; they give him the money from the keane sale, he buys a striker, striker gets (conservative estitmate) 5 away goals, we turn 5 away losses into wins.
[/quote]I would very much like for you to explain to me (mathematically) how that works?

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=39782.msg1087252#msg1087252 date=1271147660]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39782.msg1086579#msg1086579 date=1271005995]
[quote author=Halmeister link=topic=39782.msg1086574#msg1086574 date=1271005808]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39782.msg1086572#msg1086572 date=1271005640]
[quote author=Halmeister link=topic=39782.msg1086571#msg1086571 date=1271005236]
It's so frustrating because it's so simple, but it was a display we've seen so often in recent years. We have got the players for one touch, quick play, but not enough. More often than not we're so easy to play against. I'm at a loss to say whether it's tactics, the personnel or confidence, because we do it so inconsistently. I didn't see the game but it sounds as though we didn't do any of the things you mentioned Spidey, not even from the outset, so that's got to be down to managers instructions. Either that or they're deliberately disobeying him. Or the players he's assembled are incapable of it. Either way it's a fucking shambles.

Spidey, you'd give him another year,yeah? Next year will still be littered with displays like that, just like it has been throughout Rafa's time with us. He hasn't figured out how to combat defensive, organised teams regularly enough yet.

You would never see any other top side as easy to defend against as us.
[/quote]

the reason why I'd give him another year is because stuff off the pitch is influencing stuff on the pitch so I'm taking everything into account not just results.
[/quote]

I agree to an extent. Benitez is the main reason it's going wrong on the pitc, though. Not Tom and Jerry.
[/quote]

it kind of goes hand in hand though. for example; they give him the money from the keane sale, he buys a striker, striker gets (conservative estitmate) 5 away goals, we turn 5 away losses into wins.
[/quote]I would very much like for you to explain to me (mathematically) how that works?
[/quote]

sorry meant turn draws into wins, like the away game we just played.

 

[Halmeister]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39782.msg1087187#msg1087187 date=1271133268]
[quote author=Halmeister link=topic=39782.msg1087169#msg1087169 date=1271126741]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39782.msg1086809#msg1086809 date=1271047029]
[quote author=darkstarexodus link=topic=39782.msg1086800#msg1086800 date=1271039464]
I'm not arguing with what we need. I am skeptical to say the least of Rafa's ability to deliver those players irrespective of budgetary allotments. I know he delivered Torres and Mascherano and Reina and I truly do give him credit for those. However, the sheer quantity of dross in, dross out has left me at the point that I just don't think I can trust him. Not with one more year.

I'm waiting for some sign that I can pull an about face on this one, I'm trying to have faith but I really think this is it.
[/quote]

Well, every manager buys shite. Somebody in a thread earlier pointed out 45M's worth of "shit" that Rafa's purchased. I could double that figure and show you where Ferguson's misspent, or Mourinho. 40M on two midfielders at United that don't get games would be a good place to start.

Our problem is that our squad isn't as good as United's, or Chelsea's, or City's, so when we do spend 20M on a player and he doesn't work - like the case of Keane, or less so Aquilani - then it's magnified. Look at the 18M odd that went on Anderson - nobody gives a fuck that he's done nothing, because they've half a dozen other top class midfielders to rely on. Similarly Santa Cruz at City. Not the case with Aquilani.

For all the abuse he's got about transfers, he's also wanted some serious quality that we couldn't get - like Silva, Alves, Vidic, Ramsey. If he was at City or Chelsea, he'd have those players.

I think his ability to spot a decent player and buy them is questioned too much. He's no worse than any other top flight Manager out there.
[/quote]

I think you're talking about me here. I back your point up here to be honest because it is under more scrutiny when we sign big money players because it has bigger potential to backfire, and in that sense it's different to when Chelsea and Utd sign players for that amount of money.

However, it's a double-edged sword. He can't whack a precious £20 million on someone he doesn't know where to fit in or won't fancy in a few weeks. Likewise he can't spend £20 million on someone who's going to be injured for half the season and sit on the bench for the other half.
[/quote]

Other Managers - Wenger, Ferguson, Mourinho - have done both as well.

Doesn't excuse it of course, but to single him out is unfair.
[/quote]

Well they're successful in recent years...

 

[Sunny]

[quote author=Halmeister link=topic=39782.msg1087401#msg1087401 date=1271166823]
Well they're successful in recent years...
[/quote]

Wenger hasn't been.

 

[Wizardry]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39782.msg1087241#msg1087241 date=1271145129]
Rafa is incapable of building a squad.
[/quote]

That was the question in the back of my mind from his second year here, it became a more urgent question on researching exactly what Rafa managed to do and what he didn't do prior to Valencia.

I'm still inclined to agree with the concept - perhaps more so than ever. It doesn't answer every question but it does explain quite a lot.


To me he somehow seems more capable of getting the best out of other peoples teams than the one he puts together himself. The single (and I do mean single as in "the only) exception to this was our performance in the league last year. Contrastingly it is a rule exemplified by his first season at the club.

 

[Halmeister]

[quote author=Sunny link=topic=39782.msg1087427#msg1087427 date=1271170020]
[quote author=Halmeister link=topic=39782.msg1087401#msg1087401 date=1271166823]
Well they're successful in recent years...
[/quote]

Wenger hasn't been.
[/quote]

They're challenging for the league and not on the verge of finishing outside of the top 6 or perhaps top 7. We only won an FA cup the year after they won it. Since then both teams have won fuck all, but they're in a much better position.

 

[jexykrodic]

[quote author=Halmeister link=topic=39782.msg1087997#msg1087997 date=1271276526]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=39782.msg1087427#msg1087427 date=1271170020]
[quote author=Halmeister link=topic=39782.msg1087401#msg1087401 date=1271166823]
Well they're successful in recent years...
[/quote]

Wenger hasn't been.
[/quote]

They're challenging for the league and not on the verge of finishing outside of the top 6 or perhaps top 7. We only won an FA cup the year after they won it. Since then both teams have won fuck all, but they're in a much better position.
[/quote]
This time last year the roles were reversed. It's a fine line.

 

[Halmeister]

[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=39782.msg1088001#msg1088001 date=1271276883]
[quote author=Halmeister link=topic=39782.msg1087997#msg1087997 date=1271276526]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=39782.msg1087427#msg1087427 date=1271170020]
[quote author=Halmeister link=topic=39782.msg1087401#msg1087401 date=1271166823]
Well they're successful in recent years...
[/quote]

Wenger hasn't been.
[/quote]

They're challenging for the league and not on the verge of finishing outside of the top 6 or perhaps top 7. We only won an FA cup the year after they won it. Since then both teams have won fuck all, but they're in a much better position.
[/quote]
This time last year the roles were reversed. It's a fine line.
[/quote]

They weren't struggling to qualify for Europe at all, and they are stable financially.

 

[Avmenon]

Thats a fine line for some people, tho.

 

[LarryHagman]

Arsenal are well ahead of us, on and off the pitch.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=39782.msg1088118#msg1088118 date=1271296858]

Arsenal are well ahead of us, on and off the pitch.


[/quote]

Off the pitch, yes.
On the pitch, no they're not.

 

[LarryHagman]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39782.msg1088120#msg1088120 date=1271297161]
[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=39782.msg1088118#msg1088118 date=1271296858]

Arsenal are well ahead of us, on and off the pitch.


[/quote]

Off the pitch, yes.
On the pitch, no they're not.
[/quote]

Why?

 

[ZhaoYun]

[quote author=Sunny link=topic=39782.msg1087427#msg1087427 date=1271170020]
[quote author=Halmeister link=topic=39782.msg1087401#msg1087401 date=1271166823]
Well they're successful in recent years...
[/quote]

Wenger hasn't been.
[/quote]

I would take Wenger anytime over Rafa, hasn't been as successful as scum but much more successful that our shit manager.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=39782.msg1088123#msg1088123 date=1271298536]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39782.msg1088120#msg1088120 date=1271297161]
[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=39782.msg1088118#msg1088118 date=1271296858]

Arsenal are well ahead of us, on and off the pitch.


[/quote]

Off the pitch, yes.
On the pitch, no they're not.
[/quote]

Why?


[/quote]

They haven't won a trophy in 6 years.
And, in the past 5 years, we've consistently finished above them in the League and in European competition.

 

[LarryHagman]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39782.msg1088131#msg1088131 date=1271303483]
[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=39782.msg1088123#msg1088123 date=1271298536]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39782.msg1088120#msg1088120 date=1271297161]
[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=39782.msg1088118#msg1088118 date=1271296858]

Arsenal are well ahead of us, on and off the pitch.


[/quote]

Off the pitch, yes.
On the pitch, no they're not.
[/quote]

Why?


[/quote]

They haven't won a trophy in 6 years.
And, in the past 5 years, we've consistently finished above them in the League and in European competition.

[/quote]

At the end of Benitez 6th season in charge, in the Premiership we will have finished above Arsenal 3 times, below them 3 times. Only once have we out-performed them in the FA Cup and once in the League Cup. In the Champs League, we have out-performed them 3 times winning it once, losing it once; they have out-performed us 3 times, losing the final once. Granted, trophies wise, we won trophies in 2005 & 2006, they won their last in 2005.

There’s no us being ‘consistently’ better than them anywhere in there.

In my opinion, the only thing that has kept us up with, and sometimes ahead of Wenger’s Arsenal is his slightly misguided, yet admirable policy of getting the best out of what he has and promoting youth. The downside of this is that they regularly fall slightly short of Chelsea and Man U, the upside is that they spend very little and are solvent as fuck. Had he spent a fraction of what was on offer to him (when we have been spending hand over fist) it might well be a different story. I’ve a feeling he might well delve into those pockets this summer as he’ll see what Spurs and, particularly, City are up to. Arsenal have stumbled again at the death this season although they too have seen long-term injuries to key players, more so than us probably. They've built a better squad to cope with it though. Considering that they sold their main striker last season, and have had the other one missing most of this year, they have never even looked like being in the shit, despite most on this forum expecting them to drop out of the top 4 and not us (as evidenced by a thread about 5 months ago when they lost one weekend and we won).

So, seeing as they’re in the Champs League next year and have done all this playing football that probably only Barcelona can better, I’d say they are ahead of us on the pitch. And crucially, are also in a great position to strengthen that advantage moving forward.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=39782.msg1088143#msg1088143 date=1271305103]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39782.msg1088131#msg1088131 date=1271303483]
[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=39782.msg1088123#msg1088123 date=1271298536]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39782.msg1088120#msg1088120 date=1271297161]
[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=39782.msg1088118#msg1088118 date=1271296858]

Arsenal are well ahead of us, on and off the pitch.


[/quote]

Off the pitch, yes.
On the pitch, no they're not.
[/quote]

Why?


[/quote]

They haven't won a trophy in 6 years.
And, in the past 5 years, we've consistently finished above them in the League and in European competition.

[/quote]

At the end of Benitez 6th season in charge, in the Premiership we will have finished above Arsenal 3 times, below them 3 times. Only once have we out-performed them in the FA Cup and once in the League Cup. In the Champs League, we have out-performed them 3 times winning it once, losing it once; they have out-performed us 3 times, losing the final once. Granted, trophies wise, we won trophies in 2005 & 2006, they won their last in 2005.

[/quote]

So, they're not "well ahead of us" then?

Sorry mate, but all the free-flowing fancy football, right intentions, youth policies, and Managerial nous in the World don't mean a fuck when you haven't won a trophy in half a decade and consistently get beaten by your peers.

Haven't they been "in a position to strengthen" for every one of those 5 years too? Why don't they then?

They're a good club no doubt about it, but they're not well ahead of us on the pitch. Sorry.

 

[Wizardry]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39782.msg1088131#msg1088131 date=1271303483]
[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=39782.msg1088123#msg1088123 date=1271298536]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39782.msg1088120#msg1088120 date=1271297161]
[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=39782.msg1088118#msg1088118 date=1271296858]

Arsenal are well ahead of us, on and off the pitch.


[/quote]

Off the pitch, yes.
On the pitch, no they're not.
[/quote]

Why?


[/quote]

They haven't won a trophy in 6 years.
And, in the past 5 years, we've consistently finished above them in the League and in European competition.

[/quote]

I would dare to suggest that this is a little mis leading;

Over the last 5 years we've finished in front of Arsenal twice, they've finished in front of us twice and we finished equal 3rd with them on 68 points one year. They reached the CL final in 05/06 and have made it out of the qualifiying rounds each year - something we can't claim.

I'll also point out that they haven't failed to finish top 4 in that period while we have done it once and will do so again this season.


I get the point that everyone seems to be looking for reasons to jump on our manager Ryan but it's hardly debatable who is the more successful career manager between Rafa and Wenger. Nor is there much room for debate as to who is more successful in the premiership between the two. Arguing to the contrary seems a little desperate.

I think Rafa will be here next season and I don't expect him to have as bad a season but I have always had my doubts that he could build a premiership winning team and I continue to suspect that last season was the aberration rather than the norm. He is peerless in Europe and that holds an enormous amount of importance in my mind but his refusal to experiment to the point of stubborness is beyond frustrating when he clearly doesn't have the solution at present.

I remember Wenger several seasons ago saying that he believed he and every other manager could learn a huge amount from Ferguson. Considering the run-ins they've had over the years that was an astonishing statement to make. In contrast I'd be willing to bet that Rafa doesn't believe he can learn anything from Wenger, Ferguson or, perhaps, any other manager. That is his achilles heel IMO and the main factor in my thinking we can't win the league with him. Anybody who thinks they have nothing more to learn is going no-where fast.

 

[Ryan]

Wiz, I'm not comparing/debating/illustrating anything between the respective Managers. Just pointing out that they're not "well ahead of us on the pitch". Facts bear that out.

 

[Wizardry]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39782.msg1088149#msg1088149 date=1271305953]
Wiz, I'm not comparing/debating/illustrating anything between the respective Managers. Just pointing out that they're not "well ahead of us on the pitch". Facts bear that out.
[/quote]

Do you think they're "well ahead" of us on the pitch this season mate? They're 15 points ahead in the table, went further in Europe and the FA cup as well as playing better football.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=39782.msg1088156#msg1088156 date=1271306981]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39782.msg1088149#msg1088149 date=1271305953]
Wiz, I'm not comparing/debating/illustrating anything between the respective Managers. Just pointing out that they're not "well ahead of us on the pitch". Facts bear that out.
[/quote]

Do you think they're "well ahead" of us on the pitch this season mate? They're 15 points ahead in the table, went further in Europe and the FA cup as well as playing better football.

[/quote]

I don't think this season is a fair refelction of where we're actually at as a team mate. They're certainly not well ahead of us.

 

[Wizardry]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39782.msg1088158#msg1088158 date=1271307154]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=39782.msg1088156#msg1088156 date=1271306981]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39782.msg1088149#msg1088149 date=1271305953]
Wiz, I'm not comparing/debating/illustrating anything between the respective Managers. Just pointing out that they're not "well ahead of us on the pitch". Facts bear that out.
[/quote]

Do you think they're "well ahead" of us on the pitch this season mate? They're 15 points ahead in the table, went further in Europe and the FA cup as well as playing better football.

[/quote]

I don't think this season is a fair refelction of where we're actually at as a team mate. They're certainly not well ahead of us.
[/quote]

Really?

I truly believe that they'd probably be in pole position if not for Van Persie's injury. Cesc has also been a loss that has hurt them at the wrong time. I know we've been without Torres (for a shorter period) and Gerrard (for a longer period) but they're well ahead of us on merit IMO.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=39782.msg1088161#msg1088161 date=1271307325]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39782.msg1088158#msg1088158 date=1271307154]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=39782.msg1088156#msg1088156 date=1271306981]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39782.msg1088149#msg1088149 date=1271305953]
Wiz, I'm not comparing/debating/illustrating anything between the respective Managers. Just pointing out that they're not "well ahead of us on the pitch". Facts bear that out.
[/quote]

Do you think they're "well ahead" of us on the pitch this season mate? They're 15 points ahead in the table, went further in Europe and the FA cup as well as playing better football.

[/quote]

I don't think this season is a fair refelction of where we're actually at as a team mate. They're certainly not well ahead of us.
[/quote]

Really?

I truly believe that they'd probably be in pole position if not for Van Persie's injury. Cesc has also been a loss that has hurt them at the wrong time. I know we've been without Torres (for a shorter period) and Gerrard (for a longer period) but they're well ahead of us on merit IMO.
[/quote]

And Chelsea haven't missed Cole and Essien?
And United haven't missed Vidic, Rio, and VDS for large parts?

They'd be 3rd regardless of RVP's injury mate.

 

[Ryan]

And by the way... As good as RVP is (and I fucking love him as a footballer) - in his 5 seasons at Arsenal he's averaged 13 goals a season in all competitions.

We're not talking about a Torres or Drogba type influence here folks.

 

[Fabio]

RVP's overall play isn't just goals though, like near enough anyone who's played for arsenal recently. He assists (hope rosco doesn't look at this) and starts attacks beautifully

 

[keniget]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39782.msg1088164#msg1088164 date=1271307634]
And by the way... As good as RVP is (and I fucking love him as a footballer) - in his 5 seasons at Arsenal he's averaged 13 goals a season in all competitions.

We're not talking about a Torres or Drogba type influence here folks.
[/quote]

Ironically, you could perhaps put the lesser influence down to the fact that he's always injured. But regardless, in the past when they had someone like Henry or Adebayor as the focal point of their attack he wasn't as big a miss. Now that he's their main striker, it's a different story.

 

[Avmenon]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39782.msg1088158#msg1088158 date=1271307154]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=39782.msg1088156#msg1088156 date=1271306981]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39782.msg1088149#msg1088149 date=1271305953]
Wiz, I'm not comparing/debating/illustrating anything between the respective Managers. Just pointing out that they're not "well ahead of us on the pitch". Facts bear that out.
[/quote]

Do you think they're "well ahead" of us on the pitch this season mate? They're 15 points ahead in the table, went further in Europe and the FA cup as well as playing better football.

[/quote]

I don't think this season is a fair refelction of where we're actually at as a team mate. They're certainly not well ahead of us.
[/quote]

If this season isnt a fair reflection, then neither was last season.

 

[Judge Jules]

That doesn't follow, Avvy.

 

[Halmeister]

I can't see Arsenal dropping out of the top 4 any time soon and falling into mediocrity. I can't say the same for us.

 

[Avmenon]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=39782.msg1088344#msg1088344 date=1271336726]
That doesn't follow, Avvy.
[/quote]

Precisely,Jules.

 

[Judge Jules]

If you weren't a lawyer I'd have suggested you become one after that. ;D

Rafa4 does have a serious point though IMO, which is that (admitted self-inflicted wounds notwithstanding) we've had the devil's own luck this time around, in terms of injuries and of Statler and Waldorf deciding not to fund last summer's transfer kitty at the level Rafa had cause to expect.