fuck ryan's chalkboard, I'm having first crack

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Halmeister link=topic=39782.msg1086714#msg1086714 date=1271020560]
Haha Berbatosh.

Well yeah but Ferguson can afford to make mistakes such as that due to years of success as well as the strength of his team as it is. We can't, we're skint and our squad isn't as good.

Benitez has signed:

1. Keane for £20 million and seemingly decided within a matter of weeks he didn't fancy him or know where he was going to fit in.
2. Dossena for £8 million after shipping out one of our greatest servants in recent years to replace him with this dud. What made it worse was the fact he seemingly had never watched him play.
3. Aquilani for upwards of £20 million after playing a pivotal role in driving out one of our star players due to his man management approach. He signs an injury prone player whilst INJURED and then doesn't fancy him when he is fit.

That's £48 million of utter shite disasters. To put that into perspective he could have signed David Villa and David Silva for that amount. Instead, we're worse off than we were before when we had Riise, Alonso and Crouch.

If I was the board I wouldn't give him money either.
[/quote]

villa and silva have been injuried, a lot. I do get your point though.
I think rafa thought aqua would recover from his injuries faster and that he would recieve the keane money, I'm pretty sure had he known the injury to aqua was going to be long term he would have passed and would have bought a striker. in regards to keane, rafa is too quick to ship people out, he wanted to make sure he would get as much money back as possible think he would be given that money to spend. he would have been better off holding on to him for another season as no one is going to tell me ngog is a better option then keane (and I can't stand keane).

 

[SaintGeorge67]

it's ok, Aquilani had a "stringent" medical, rather than our standard ones.

 

[Halmeister]

I don't know, Spidey. Surely Rafa knows if he's going to recoup any money for a replacement from selling a player beforehand? I can't believe they would have kept it secret from him until he sold Keane. And if they did I'd imagine Rafa to kick up a fuss. Anyway, as SG said, he tried to sign Keirrison as a replacement so he obviously had money there.

I can forgive bad signings. Signing players can be a matter of luck sometimes. What I can't forgive is driving good players out, replacing them with expensive failures without doing your homework on them and not knowing where they're going to fit in. And then repeating the cycle.

 

[Halmeister]

Sorry anyway Spidey, I've hijacked the thread a bit and you made some good points.

I think it comes down to our personnel and tactics on the day, obviously. The team was quite good, given what is available to us. But the tactics, or the execution of them, was poor. It's far too slow and static, which you've already touched upon. Benitez either has set the team up like this or the players are unable to break stubborn sides like Fulham down. Either way, it's happened on a regular basis under Benitez, and I don't think he's learning from his mistakes (which ties into the signing players argument but it's been done to death already in this thread).

After 5 years we should be better off than being utterly toothless when you take our best striker out and Gerrard. Just as it was 5 years ago.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Halmeister link=topic=39782.msg1086726#msg1086726 date=1271023704]
Sorry anyway Spidey, I've hijacked the thread a bit and you made some good points.

I think it comes down to our personnel and tactics on the day, obviously. The team was quite good, given what is available to us. But the tactics, or the execution of them, was poor. It's far too slow and static, which you've already touched upon. Benitez either has set the team up like this or the players are unable to break stubborn sides like Fulham down. Either way, it's happened on a regular basis under Benitez, and I don't think he's learning from his mistakes (which ties into the signing players argument but it's been done to death already in this thread).

After 5 years we should be better off than being utterly toothless when you take our best striker out and Gerrard. Just as it was 5 years ago.
[/quote]

no need to apologise for taking the thread on a tangent it was a fun debate 🙂

 

[monsieurdantes]

[quote author=Halmeister link=topic=39782.msg1086714#msg1086714 date=1271020560]
Haha Berbatosh.

Benitez has signed:

1. Keane for £20 million and seemingly decided within a matter of weeks he didn't fancy him or know where he was going to fit in.
2. Dossena for £8 million after shipping out one of our greatest servants in recent years to replace him with this dud. What made it worse was the fact he seemingly had never watched him play.
3. Aquilani for upwards of £20 million after playing a pivotal role in driving out one of our star players due to his man management approach. He signs an injury prone player whilst INJURED and then doesn't fancy him when he is fit.

That's £48 million of utter shite disasters. To put that into perspective he could have signed David Villa and David Silva for that amount. Instead, we're worse off than we were before when we had Riise, Alonso and Crouch.

If I was the board I wouldn't give him money either.
[/quote]


absolutely. if he pulls this sort of shit at juventus, the fuck he'll wake up next to a severed horse head. the fucking liberties he's taking with this clubs money are sickening. fucking sickening

let's get this straight he doesn't need 60million to compete with chelsea and man u for the title. thats bullshit political spin. face facts you fat fuck, what you need that 60million for is to beat the likes of birmingham and fulham. thats really why you need that money and that's really why you need to fuck off

 

[Halmeister]

Should I be worried that Dantes regularly agrees with what I say?

 

[monsieurdantes]

well i agreed with that post word for word, it's almost as if they are my words. yes i think you should worry

he has made parry look good. he's a fucking clown. that reminds me of something roy keane said. i think id take roy keane as our manager, im sure you'll agree he'd be a decent manager for us

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=39782.msg1086738#msg1086738 date=1271026368]
[quote author=Halmeister link=topic=39782.msg1086714#msg1086714 date=1271020560]
Haha Berbatosh.

Benitez has signed:

1. Keane for £20 million and seemingly decided within a matter of weeks he didn't fancy him or know where he was going to fit in.
2. Dossena for £8 million after shipping out one of our greatest servants in recent years to replace him with this dud. What made it worse was the fact he seemingly had never watched him play.
3. Aquilani for upwards of £20 million after playing a pivotal role in driving out one of our star players due to his man management approach. He signs an injury prone player whilst INJURED and then doesn't fancy him when he is fit.

That's £48 million of utter shite disasters. To put that into perspective he could have signed David Villa and David Silva for that amount. Instead, we're worse off than we were before when we had Riise, Alonso and Crouch.

If I was the board I wouldn't give him money either.
[/quote]


absolutely. if he pulls this sort of shit at juventus, the fuck he'll wake up next to a severed horse head. the fucking liberties he's taking with this clubs money are sickening. fucking sickening

let's get this straight he doesn't need 60million to compete with chelsea and man u for the title. thats bullshit political spin. face facts you fat fuck, what you need that 60million for is to beat the likes of birmingham and fulham. thats really why you need that money and that's really why you need to fuck off
[/quote]

fat fuck, ha ha comedy.
for the record 60m to be the likes of brum and fulham would be money well spent because the the majority of teams in the league park the bus. manu (usually) brush these teams aside and consistantly win the league, last season manu finished bottom of the 'top 4 league' and still won the league because of their ability to beat shite.

 

[monsieurdantes]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39782.msg1086742#msg1086742 date=1271027677]
fat fuck, ha ha comedy.
for the record 60m to be the likes of brum and fulham would be money well spent because the the majority of teams in the league park the bus. manu (usually) brush these teams aside and consistantly win the league, last season manu finished bottom of the 'top 4 league' and still won the league because of their ability to beat shite.
[/quote]


fucking hell neil. man u have a far superior team than fulham. we also have a far superior team to fulham. what the fuck difference will spending 60m make. benitez thinks it will make a difference but he's a fucking clown. 60m quid later guess what... we will still have a fucking superior team to fulham.

benitez is too much of a fucking idiot to make that superiorty count. and his fucking stupidity is confirmed by him wanting to resolve matters by spending millions of pounds to make his team even more superior to fulhams. hey idiot, fucking idiot. how about you spend some fucking time thinking and change your tactical approach instead. how about that you fucking retard. 60 million my fucking ass. he doesn't deserve one tenth of that.

 

[Ryan]

Soooo...

Hard to draw inspiration to do this, but anyway.

4-6-0 from Fulham when we were in possession. 3 full minutes into the game before we stopped passing the ball sideways across the back four and moved it forward. I could argue that we were slow to get at them, ponderous in possession, and taking the safety first approach, but their (Fulham)shape was good and remained intact for the 90 minutes.

they're really well managed. they were obviously fucked after Thursday night, and this being their 56th fixture of the season, but look how well they kept us out. Tow banks of four that never shifted out of position. Can anyone name a run forward or out of position that any one of that back 8 made across the 90 minutes?

Even when Greening was booked after getting the run around, Hodgson switched him over with Duff to prevent the possibility of going down to 10 men.

Still, if you want to challenge for titles or in Europe you've got to be able to break teams down, however solid they are. Yet again, a perfect example of not having enough top class players. Sideways sideways sideways pass to Glenjo, create something please Glenjo, nothing, backwards, sideways sideways, Maxi, nioce turn, keeps possession, turns the defender, 40 yards from goal, sideways sideways sideways. Fucking MEH.

Mark's thread with the swipe at those picking on Insua, and Lucas all season long is spot on. Well there's your attacking team out today, and what did we create? Two bits of fuck all. That fucking braindead halfwit Babel out on the left wing. Absolutely clueless. Here's a fucking tip Ryan - MOVE. Standing out there waiting for the ball to come somewhere near him so he can run straight into Chris Baird.

He's just got no intelligence. No idea how to involve himself in the game. A half-decent defender stops him. It's unfair to pick him out of that maudlin bunch, but really - we need so so much better. I watched a bit of the City game, and watching the inter-movement between their front 6 was glorious. Bellamy and Babel play on the same wing, have the same amount of pace, and were up against the same type of defender. Only Bellamy didn't stand on the wing all afternoon waiting for someone to give him the ball. PLEASE go to this - http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/chalkboards/create - and have a look at Babel's contribution. 29 passes, 28 of which came from the left wing. Once, fucking ONCE he came isnide to try something different.

And N'gog. Worked hard, showed for it, held it up reasonably well, absolutely monstered by Hangeland.
City had Adebayor and Tevez up front today, and the 20M Santa Cruz on the bench. Torres is out with knee-knack and we've got to really on a 1.5M stick of peperami. I don't mind N'gog, but if Rooney's out for a spell of time, do you think Ferguson relies on Danny Wellbeck for half a season? I can't be arsed getting into the ramifications of why we have the striking options we do, but if it isn't rectified, then we'll be in the Europa League for the next 20 years.

Worryingly, the longer the game went on the less likely we looked like scoring. Fulham reverted to a defensive triangle, shunting us inside. Even mroe worrying was out first preference most of the time WAS to go fucking inside. Look at how Bayern stretched and opened up United the other night. Quick, sharp passing from side to side eventually strethcing the United side until it creates an opening, then you rely on a super talent to kill them. We fanny about 30 yards from goal trying to chip a ball over the ot, or trying half a dozen one-two's just to create half a yard of space for a shot.

Fuck this, I'm bored of typing this same shit every week. Torres is out, and we've two players (Gerrard and Glenjo) trying to change the mode of attack. Two. We need better players in attack ,world class ones, otherwise it'll be the same shite for years to come.

And finally - the one positive of the day. The minute's silence for the 96. Respected beautifully. Nobody does tributes better than our supporters. It's a pity they had to sit through that garbage for the 90 minutes afterwards. A word to Roy Hodgson too, warmly applauding the tribute, and showing himself to be the utter gentleman he obviously is. there are too few of him in football these days.

 

[Avmenon]

Good post, but you always seem to reiterate that our problems are only because Rafa isnt supported financially

Which is a bit of a cop out.

As for the 'attacking lineup; if the attacking lineup is shit, we're not going to score.

 

[darkstarexodus]

Honest question Ryan, do you agree with Rafa that he needs 50-60 M to spend in the summer?

 

[Avmenon]

I do have sympathy for Neil tho; his usual cohorts arent around to lend support.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=39782.msg1086779#msg1086779 date=1271036538]
Good post, but you always seem to reiterate that our problems are only because Rafa isnt supported financially

Which is a bit of a cop out.

As for the 'attacking lineup; if the attacking lineup is shit, we're not going to score.
[/quote]

I don't mate. He's been backed well enough, he's just bought some shit unfortunately. We still need better players though, which is going to take more money, and lots of it.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=darkstarexodus link=topic=39782.msg1086780#msg1086780 date=1271036584]
Honest question Ryan, do you agree with Rafa that he needs 50-60 M to spend in the summer?
[/quote]

Yup, absolutely.

 

[darkstarexodus]

At this point, would you trust him with that wonga or would you prefer someone else to step in?

(And, if it changes your answer, let's add the hypothetical of our ownership situation not being a clusterfuck.)

 

[Ryan]

Well, it's like this. We need a minimum of 3 world class players in that side.

You can sack Rafa, but the incumbent coach (whoever the fuck that might be) would need the same money anyway. So it matters not a jot in that sense.

I'd be inclined to give it to Rafa, let him go after number one priorties, and if it doesn't work, adios.

 

[darkstarexodus]

I'm not arguing with what we need. I am skeptical to say the least of Rafa's ability to deliver those players irrespective of budgetary allotments. I know he delivered Torres and Mascherano and Reina and I truly do give him credit for those. However, the sheer quantity of dross in, dross out has left me at the point that I just don't think I can trust him. Not with one more year.

I'm waiting for some sign that I can pull an about face on this one, I'm trying to have faith but I really think this is it.

 

[Avmenon]

Agree with the pharmacist

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=darkstarexodus link=topic=39782.msg1086800#msg1086800 date=1271039464]
I'm not arguing with what we need. I am skeptical to say the least of Rafa's ability to deliver those players irrespective of budgetary allotments. I know he delivered Torres and Mascherano and Reina and I truly do give him credit for those. However, the sheer quantity of dross in, dross out has left me at the point that I just don't think I can trust him. Not with one more year.

I'm waiting for some sign that I can pull an about face on this one, I'm trying to have faith but I really think this is it.
[/quote]

Well, every manager buys shite. Somebody in a thread earlier pointed out 45M's worth of "shit" that Rafa's purchased. I could double that figure and show you where Ferguson's misspent, or Mourinho. 40M on two midfielders at United that don't get games would be a good place to start.

Our problem is that our squad isn't as good as United's, or Chelsea's, or City's, so when we do spend 20M on a player and he doesn't work - like the case of Keane, or less so Aquilani - then it's magnified. Look at the 18M odd that went on Anderson - nobody gives a fuck that he's done nothing, because they've half a dozen other top class midfielders to rely on. Similarly Santa Cruz at City. Not the case with Aquilani.

For all the abuse he's got about transfers, he's also wanted some serious quality that we couldn't get - like Silva, Alves, Vidic, Ramsey. If he was at City or Chelsea, he'd have those players.

I think his ability to spot a decent player and buy them is questioned too much. He's no worse than any other top flight Manager out there.

 

[Avmenon]

He's questioned too much because he blames the whole world for his transfer failures.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=39782.msg1086814#msg1086814 date=1271048463]

He's questioned too much because he blames the whole world for his transfer failures.
[/quote]

Again - maybe, maybe not.

But it still doesn't deviate from the fact that we need better players.

Here's a snapshot that I've stolen from another thread:
Man City's squad at the start of 2008 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_City_F.C._season_2007%E2%80%9308
18 months later their squad - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_City_F.C._season_2009%E2%80%9310#Squad

Out of that, only Richards is a 1st team starter, and even that's questionable. Do you think they're not gonna add to that this summer when they finish in the Top 4?

At the same time, our squad's getting worse, and we owe the guts of 250M to banks, before we can even start looking at buying players.

The gulf is only going to get wider.

 

[darkstarexodus]

I know Ryan and to a certain extent I agree. I dunno, it's just at the point where I can't place my faith in him anymore. I've never tried to place all the blame at his door but it just feels like a relationship that's faded away instead of burning out.

(Wow, that's a sentimental and maudlin post... maybe that LSD wasn't completely ineffective...)

 

[spider-Neil]

I think money would buy personnel but it isn't all money its approach its taking chances and its drilling a mentality into players.

far be it for me to tell rafa how to coach his players but players could improve with simple instructions, some examples;

carra - when you are at home don't send the ball long unless you absolutely have to, its food and drink to opposition defenders intent on parking the bus. when you see space in front of you move into that space until someone moves in to close you down THEN pass the ball.

babel - stay on the touchline as long as possible, don't move into the middle unless you see the ball on the other flank, every once in a while attempt to take the ball on the outside. given your pace if you are having no joy taking on a player one on one boot the ball past them and use your pace to strip them, once past them they aren't catching you.

lucas - if your partner is a holding midfielder take responisiblity to play further up the pitch if for no other reason other than to give the attacking players passing options.

yossi - (and pretty much the entire liverpool team) release the ball faster if you can get away with one touch USE one touch

team - shift the ball faster, try and stay compact rather than having huge gaps all over the pitch, its going to improve your ability to find a team mate with a pass

defenders - defend as high up the pitch as possible to compress the play, pressure the opposition which will lead to errors. sure it will lead to possible break away goals but no guts no glory

if it was dross week in week out then I would say the squad has no ability but against benfica (as an example) the team was excellent. the team has to be more senible and the manager has to be less cautious. we need to spend money but we don't need to spend as much as some people are making out.

 

[Halmeister]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39782.msg1086809#msg1086809 date=1271047029]
[quote author=darkstarexodus link=topic=39782.msg1086800#msg1086800 date=1271039464]
I'm not arguing with what we need. I am skeptical to say the least of Rafa's ability to deliver those players irrespective of budgetary allotments. I know he delivered Torres and Mascherano and Reina and I truly do give him credit for those. However, the sheer quantity of dross in, dross out has left me at the point that I just don't think I can trust him. Not with one more year.

I'm waiting for some sign that I can pull an about face on this one, I'm trying to have faith but I really think this is it.
[/quote]

Well, every manager buys shite. Somebody in a thread earlier pointed out 45M's worth of "shit" that Rafa's purchased. I could double that figure and show you where Ferguson's misspent, or Mourinho. 40M on two midfielders at United that don't get games would be a good place to start.

Our problem is that our squad isn't as good as United's, or Chelsea's, or City's, so when we do spend 20M on a player and he doesn't work - like the case of Keane, or less so Aquilani - then it's magnified. Look at the 18M odd that went on Anderson - nobody gives a fuck that he's done nothing, because they've half a dozen other top class midfielders to rely on. Similarly Santa Cruz at City. Not the case with Aquilani.

For all the abuse he's got about transfers, he's also wanted some serious quality that we couldn't get - like Silva, Alves, Vidic, Ramsey. If he was at City or Chelsea, he'd have those players.

I think his ability to spot a decent player and buy them is questioned too much. He's no worse than any other top flight Manager out there.
[/quote]

I think you're talking about me here. I back your point up here to be honest because it is under more scrutiny when we sign big money players because it has bigger potential to backfire, and in that sense it's different to when Chelsea and Utd sign players for that amount of money.

However, it's a double-edged sword. He can't whack a precious £20 million on someone he doesn't know where to fit in or won't fancy in a few weeks. Likewise he can't spend £20 million on someone who's going to be injured for half the season and sit on the bench for the other half. It hurts us far too much. He needs to do his homework better and more thoroughly on these players.

For that reason i wouldn't trust him with another 50 or 60 mil.

 

[darkstarexodus]

I think Rafa is really in a lose-lose situation this upcoming transfer window. Let's say for shits and giggles he gets 40-50 M to spend (none of this "plus sales" crap 'cause everyone overvalues our own players: he can buy 40-50 M worth). We have enough holes that need filling that if he spunks the majority of his cash on 1-2 players, he will be criticised for not filling all the gaps. If he manages to fill all the holes with slightly lesser players (8-12 M each for random numbers' sake), he runs a big risk of "dross in, dross out syndrome"[sup]TM[/sup].

Assuming he lasts that long.

I just hope he doesn't stick around most of the summer and then quit/get fired towards the end of the window, leaving his successor no time to pull his thumb out.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Halmeister link=topic=39782.msg1087169#msg1087169 date=1271126741]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39782.msg1086809#msg1086809 date=1271047029]
[quote author=darkstarexodus link=topic=39782.msg1086800#msg1086800 date=1271039464]
I'm not arguing with what we need. I am skeptical to say the least of Rafa's ability to deliver those players irrespective of budgetary allotments. I know he delivered Torres and Mascherano and Reina and I truly do give him credit for those. However, the sheer quantity of dross in, dross out has left me at the point that I just don't think I can trust him. Not with one more year.

I'm waiting for some sign that I can pull an about face on this one, I'm trying to have faith but I really think this is it.
[/quote]

Well, every manager buys shite. Somebody in a thread earlier pointed out 45M's worth of "shit" that Rafa's purchased. I could double that figure and show you where Ferguson's misspent, or Mourinho. 40M on two midfielders at United that don't get games would be a good place to start.

Our problem is that our squad isn't as good as United's, or Chelsea's, or City's, so when we do spend 20M on a player and he doesn't work - like the case of Keane, or less so Aquilani - then it's magnified. Look at the 18M odd that went on Anderson - nobody gives a fuck that he's done nothing, because they've half a dozen other top class midfielders to rely on. Similarly Santa Cruz at City. Not the case with Aquilani.

For all the abuse he's got about transfers, he's also wanted some serious quality that we couldn't get - like Silva, Alves, Vidic, Ramsey. If he was at City or Chelsea, he'd have those players.

I think his ability to spot a decent player and buy them is questioned too much. He's no worse than any other top flight Manager out there.
[/quote]

I think you're talking about me here. I back your point up here to be honest because it is under more scrutiny when we sign big money players because it has bigger potential to backfire, and in that sense it's different to when Chelsea and Utd sign players for that amount of money.

However, it's a double-edged sword. He can't whack a precious £20 million on someone he doesn't know where to fit in or won't fancy in a few weeks. Likewise he can't spend £20 million on someone who's going to be injured for half the season and sit on the bench for the other half.
[/quote]

Other Managers - Wenger, Ferguson, Mourinho - have done both as well.

Doesn't excuse it of course, but to single him out is unfair.

 

[Glock21]

I wouldn't trust Rafa with 6 quid let alone 60 fucking mil! Bloody hell children!!

This is like Valencia all over again...remember the "I asked for a table and they bought me a lampshade" shit?? Exactly children...its the same fucking thing.

 

[Squiggles]

Rafa is incapable of building a squad.