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FSG

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FSG just seem intent on doing things on the cheap but ultimately its proved a false economy. Trying to find value is all very well but if you're not very good at it, then its a waste of funds.

Last season was nearly a fucking disaster - no European football to distract and we still very nearly didn't make top 4. Chelsea in the same position won the bloody league, even with a brand new manager.

If we carry on conceding shite goals this season, its going to be mayhem. Does Klopp get it in the neck for not sorting the defending out tactically/coaching, or is it FSGs fault for not getting us the players we were meant to?
 
Maybe they are not doing things on the cheap. Maybe they are just doing things within their means.

What owners in the prem would you swap them for, Rafiagra? Would you want a sugar daddy type owner a la Chelsea and City?
 
What a very strange post.

Zero actual evidence ? How about :
Player X : Salah is already in the bag at the figure I quoted. So I can't be 100% wrong whatever happens (66.7% at worst) !
Player Y : LFC issued a statement apologising for our tapping up. Since VVD had already agreed to move to Liverpool do you honestly think it would be less than £40m (and more likely much more). That isn't rumour or hearsay, it's based on statements from LFC & VVD !
Player Z : Keita has been on Klopp's lips for a long time and clearly, with all RBL's media announcements of refusals to sell, they are under pressure from somewhere, whilst we have stayed absolutely silent rather than the usual denials of any interest, despite massive media pressure around the club to release information on a potential Keita bid.

So all three have a very real basis for assumption. Your examples of Coutinho and Mane obviously aren't comparable.

I don't think it's being even the slightest bit prescient considering two out of the three would almost certainly have been done by now except for that contemptible loudmouth spouting to the media. And if we don't get those done I wouldn't consider I would look in the slightest bit daft because it wouldn't change the fact we are/were after those three players and that £140m is the minimum it's going to take to get them. I've never said 'we'll get them' so whether we do or not is immaterial.

I also don't think the historical average spend per window under FSG is any indicator of what they'll spend with Klopp, with massively increased income from the PL and with the new main stand now completed. Anyway fingers crossed we can still get VVD and Keita done, and if we do I won't be crowing about forecasting it (though I'll be extremely happy we got it done) because it was never about that in the first place. Just about FSG being willing to support their manager.
You typed too much. Im not reading all that.
I'll just assume you tried to justify predicting the future rather than accepting the present in a really long winded form.

I dont want to argue. I really dont care enough.

Peace and love Froggy
 

Ok.

Until a daddy of the sugar variety comes along, you should just accept we have owners that spend within their means, and criticising them for not having enough money is futile.

Oh, and City's owners missed out on Messi. No owner can win 'em all.
 
It's probably easier to come into a club like ours - living on past glories and on the brink of disaster - as we don't really know any better these days. We just look on enviously at other clubs.

FSG have been alright and done some good things but they've certainly not lived up to the early hype.

Being Liverpool, envelopes, Brendan Rodgers midlife crisis, getting caught tapping up, Jen Chang, allowing the 'transfer committee' to become a thing in the media, Balotelli, Suarez t-shirts... it's a pretty fucking far cry from moneyball and the world class operation we thought we were going to get.

As Binny said, Klopp aside, was hoping for a better footballing set up behind the scenes.
 
It's probably easier to come into a club like ours - living on past glories and on the brink of disaster - as we don't really know any better these days. We just look on enviously at other clubs.

FSG have been alright and done some good things but they've certainly not lived up to the early hype.

Being Liverpool, envelopes, Brendan Rodgers midlife crisis, getting caught tapping up, Jen Chang, allowing the 'transfer committee' to become a thing in the media, Balotelli, Suarez t-shirts... it's a pretty fucking far cry from moneyball and the world class operation we thought we were going to get.

As Binny said, Klopp aside, was hoping for a better footballing set up behind the scenes.

I think all of the above is fair criticism. They have done a fair bit of good - most notably "rescuing" the club from the brink and modernizing our commercial operations.

Where they've largely failed is with the on field aspects. I think they saw European/English football as an archaic sport mesmerized by tradition and with many market inefficiencies that could be exploited to deliver a winner and increase the value of their investment both easily and quickly. They've found this to be manifestly untrue.

They haven't necessarily been shy with spending but much of the spending has been poor, owing to decisions made by people who are largely no longer with us and whom should not have been in such positions to begin with.

It's unclear still whether they've truly learned from these errors and Edwards very much has a lot to prove.
 
ECHO (yesterday)
However, the machinations of a transfer aren't carried out in the glare of social media.
Behind the scenes, the work will be ongoing, discussions taking place – either directly or indirectly – between clubs and representatives.
 
Where they've largely failed is with the on field aspects. I think they saw European/English football as an archaic sport mesmerized by tradition and with many market inefficiencies that could be exploited to deliver a winner and increase the value of their investment both easily and quickly. They've found this to be manifestly untrue.

They haven't necessarily been shy with spending but much of the spending has been poor, owing to decisions made by people who are largely no longer with us and whom should not have been in such positions to begin with.
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I think previous managers have to take a fair portion of the blame for on the pitch matters. There is only so much you can lay at the feet of the owners. I would wager very few players would have been actually forced upon Dalglish and Rodgers.
 
ECHO (yesterday)
However, the machinations of a transfer aren't carried out in the glare of social media.
Behind the scenes, the work will be ongoing, discussions taking place – either directly or indirectly – between clubs and representatives.

We've heard all this in previous seasons, it doesn't mean it will amount to anything substantial.
 
I think previous managers have to take a fair portion of the blame for on the pitch matters. There is only so much you can lay at the feet of the owners. I would wager very few players would have been actually forced upon Dalglish and Rodgers.

Is that exclusive to those two? What about Klavan and Karius? They've been disasters too. There have been too many instances of missed targets and embarrassing, fruitless journeys around Europe, by the likes of Ian Ayre & Parry. The Pennant story and how we lost out on Alves, how we ended up with Mario, how we failed to get Deli Alli. How we lost Torres, Masher, Xabi, Mereilles, Suarez and Sterling. The fault of that lies with the owners and previous owners, and it's had a detrimental effect on the teams, the managers and our ability to attract players. It's something that's been rotting away at the club for decades now. So people can be forgiven for thinking it's a different season but the same old amateur shite.
 
I think previous managers have to take a fair portion of the blame for on the pitch matters. There is only so much you can lay at the feet of the owners. I would wager very few players would have been actually forced upon Dalglish and Rodgers.

Of course, but we've seen a lot of haltering missteps from ownership with the DoF, no wait - the boss works best alone, ok - transfer committee fiasco. No one was really in charge, there was a lot of tension and our buys (and misses) reflected this.

I think part of the problem is that we are caught of two minds between trying to be a "smart" team like Southampton or Seville versus trying to be a "big club" like Chelsea (plastic cunts) or United. Yes, we can be smarter - but I think we need to act like a big club if we are to have success and FSG either needs to realize this more fully or sell up.
 
Fsg obviously want to get the club to a state whereby they can sell for a huge deal. However, the problem is the only people with big enough cash to buy Liverpool are going for the cheaper fixer-upper clubs instead of buying well respected Liverpool for circa 1 billion. So fsg might be stuck between a rock and a hard place. They aren't rich enough to take us to the next level and the clubs valuation isn't good enough for the real sugar daddies of the world. The best time to have been bought by the real rich ones of the world was when Hicks and Gillette buggered off but it didn't happen.

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Fsg obviously want to get the club to a state whereby they can sell for a huge deal. However, the problem is the only people with big enough cash to buy Liverpool are going for the cheaper fixer-upper clubs instead of buying well respected Liverpool for circa 1 billion. So fsg might be stuck between a rock and a hard place. They aren't rich enough to take us to the next level and the clubs valuation isn't good enough for the real sugar daddies of the world. The best time to have been bought by the real rich ones of the world was when Hicks and Gillette buggered off but it didn't happen.

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Im not sure to be honest.
They paid what? 400m? I cant remember to be honest but it wasnt much.
We must be generating about that much profit every year now.
Im sure if China rocked up with a billion quid they would sell, but I think most premier league owners are happy to just own. Its a huge cash cow.
Spend as little as needed to stay top 6 and challenging, scrape the rest off.
 
Whilst your comments re. having a solid working base for the club are clear and indisputable, I'm not sure they have such a direct correlation to on-field success as you seem to have concluded. Especially through your use of a number of examples (Juve, Southampton, Spurs, RB - the most hated team in the BL because they are considered to have bought their way to the top, the way City and Chelsea did in the PL) that have had limited competition and/or still aren't at the top of their respective leagues, which doesn't exactly support your theories, and especially when some of them have done so not by outstanding management but by out-spending their competition.
By it's nature football is cyclical. I don't care which team and in whatever league, no team stays at the top consistently (maybe RM, Barca and Bayern can be partially exempt from that statement due to the particular nature of their leagues and money).
Chelsea won the league then slipped to 10th, having fired their manager, one of the best in the game, midseason when flirting with the relegation zone.
United have finished 7th, 4th, 5th and 6th (an average position lower than Liverpool) since Ferguson left despite being the richest team in the world (though to give credit they have won the FAC, LC and EL, even if against opposition we'd also have pissed on).
Arsenal have had steady management as a club and a high quality manager for years but have only pottered around the Top 4 for the past 13 years, just once finishing in 2nd (yet never challenging for the title) and their only European trophies in their whole history a Fairs Cup in 1970 and Cup Winners Cup in 1994 (to give them credit 3xFACs in the past 4 seasons).

Are Chelsea and City, the only two consistent performers at the top of the PL now, where they are due to good management ? No, as clearly the records indicate their metamorphosis came about only after massive investment.

And so on to Spurs. One has to wonder how much of their rise has been due to good management (sorry, I disagree that Levy has been managing the club in a responsible or visionary way and they have had substantial assistance from the council over their redeveloping of their ground and Wembley). As to league form, what would have happened if we had got Ali ? Or they hadn't found Kane ? It is only the past 2 seasons they have finished 3rd and 2nd and looked maybe slightly better than they actually are. Prior to that over the past 10 years : 11th, 8th, 4th, 5th, 4th, 5th, 6th, 5th with the only silverware a UEFA Cup in 2008.
They shouldn't be held up as some beacon because, even with our mismanagement and flirtation with insolvency thanks to G&H, we still have an average league position of just 0.2 lower over that period, and, unlike Spurs, we actually had two genuine attempts at the PL title, not like them falling away to finish 10 & 7 points behind (last two seasons). I don't expect them to finish Top 4 this season, so what will be made of this outstanding management then I wonder (naturally a hypothetical at this point) ?

FFP - not specifically in response to your posts but let's not lose sight of the fact that our spending has also been limited by income, especially prior to the past 2 years, and in that regard the major gains in income from global marketing goes to providing a basis for LFC/Klopp to spend going forward. Without it we wouldn't be in the same strong financial position. Note that spending on infrastructure does not count towards FFP.

I totally agree with you on the promoting of non-football people to key positions. However sometimes that works too, just less often. You can be forgiven for trying and failing but then need to learn from that and change tack.

I'm not promoting or unequivocally supporting FSG at this stage, the jury is undoubtedly still out, however I find that pointing at other teams as examples of good management (unsupported by facts) and the fierce criticism on here by some, to be short-sighted and petty when many facts speak to the exact opposite.

Nothing is certain since the game is played on pitch rather than on paper but there is no doubt on the importance on a club's management + infrastructure vs chances of sustain success/challenge for honor.

As I mentioned, the listed clubs may not be the best of examples but do note that I was listing them not just because of their progress and achievements but more to do with portraying a clearer picture of how much things can progress over the period of 7 years. Anyway, I don't think the amount of money we spent was dwarfed by those clubs either (just look at our/EPL clubs' revenue and wage bill).

https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/revealed-europes-biggest-spenders-2010-and-whos-made-most-money
spend.jpg


Besides (1) we know how money don't necessary buy success, (2) even if they do, many a times it's not sustainable if inadequate long term planning or lack of blueprint is in place, (3) a closer look at the respective clubs' progress suggest their successes were not solely dependent on outspending/splashing the cash (just look at the impact of those teams in European football competition too). It wasn't plain sailing for many of the clubs too. Just to list 2 such examples:
  • Gil left behind one of the worst-run teams in Europe, with debts that reached €300m by 2009, and €514m by 2011; at that point, the only Spanish clubs to owe more were Real Madrid (€590m) and Barcelona (€578m). Yet their significantly higher revenues gave the two giants of Spanish football debt coverage ratios of around 80%. Atlético’s was a paltry 19%, worse than all but two of the 20 sides in La Liga. Since then, La Liga de Fútbol Profesional has introduced financial regulations that compel clubs to pay off their debts. Atlético have responded shrewdly. Over the past five seasons they have run a surplus on their player transfer accounts, spending €34m less than they received—in contrast to the €204m and €183m deficits generated by Barcelona and Real respectively.
Atlético Madrid's resurgence has been thanks to discipline
Competing With Giants: The Atletico Madrid Case Study

Definitely agree that positions are not guaranteed but all teams need time to build and all plans need time to implement and execute, with improvisation along the way so we shouldn't just look into league positions or points accrued. Besides, there are so many factors such as injuries/suspensions or sales of key players, involvement and progress in European football and cup competitions etc. However, questions such as how many of each top clubs' players can get into the other top clubs, how ready each top club are to challenge for honors consistently etc. may paint clearer pictures.

The foundations of a club can determine how long it will take or how fast it is for them to bounce back. Chelsea's case of winning the title just a season after finishing 10th (with a +43 mark jump), Man Utd still standing strong despite consecutive mediocre/poor seasons by their standards. And has Daniel Levy not played a part/done well in building the club since joining in 2001 - from the then Big 4 to the now Big 5 (which honestly speaking we were in it by reputation given how we were languishing almost near mid table for many years) and finally making it to the CL in 09/10? Not to forget losing the likes of Carrick, Berbatov, Bale and Modric.

Switching the focus back to us - Was our squad truly ready for top 4 challenge last season? If we didn't finish in the top 4 last season, do we forsee the club at least launching solid challenges this/next season? How long more or how much more spending do we need to genuinely do so?

Of course, it might also be unfair to compare with the likes of Chelsea and Man City with sugar daddies but that said, we have always featured near the top of football money leagues
Deloitte Football Money League 2017

Chelsea have a scatter gun approach in the transfer market where they snap up talent, loan them out, sell at profits and then splashing on key signings occasionally. Their "partnership" with Vitesse Arnhem is also pretty well know.
How Chelsea’s links to Vitesse Arnhem run deeper than the public was told

City Football Group continues expanding their network of clubs (Man City, New York City, Melbourne City, Yokohama F. Marinos etc.) in similar manner to Red Bull - with their latest acquisition being a 2nd division Uruguayan club. Meanwhile, an interesting trivia:


Juventus brought in experience after their promotion to Serie A but upon consolidation, started to "do a (mini) Bayern" by snapping talented lads from the lesser sides (a plan which seems easy yet overlooked by the other domestic giants when they were in their prime).


Each club is unique so there's no 1 size fit all method/remedy. Whether the approaches may or may not bring about long term success or are suitable for us is up for discussions/debate but what's evident is the respective management has a plan or at least try to work with one. Even Brentford has one (as shared in the interesting thread by @peekay)

The scouting/ player recruitment part of the club was one of FSG's main focus - one which they have complete control over (Dave Fallows and Barry Hunter were their appointments) and we have yet to see much obvious improvement/changes. How disappointing was it seeing us linked with Jonathan Woodgate while Man Utd got the like of Juventus scout Javier Ribalta and Atletico Madrid scout Gerardo Guzman.

It's nice to want to be different and innovative but overdoing it or without coming out with a solid enough plan (coupled with efficient review and fine tuning of it) smacks of amateurism (and stubbornness). If a 'key board warrior'/couch potato fan like me (or us) can come up with feasible plans/ideas to explore/implement, imagine what those experienced footballing guys in the industry can do - with the money involved. I'm glad with Gerrard's return and it was nice hearing about Inglethorpe involving Heighway at the Academy - I always like the way Bayern and Ajax have former players involved.

So really, the concern/rant is not just about money spent/support for the manager in the transfer market. It's much more deeper than that. I don't belong to the #FSGOut legion but more questions remain vs. those answered.
 
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Great post @King Binny... with references and everything.

Those are my concerns also. It's the apparent lack of vision and talent at the club (behind the scenes) that bothers me more than anything else these days.
 
The opening poster is very similar to a lot of the 'ITKs' on twitter (such as Brian Durand and Mark Mc - both of who I used to enjoy following but are starting to believe their own hype and are just opinionated nobodies) who spend half their time moaning about modern football fans and the other half slating the owners for not throwing 80m at players based on reading a few red top headlines. Boring as hell.

Gary - your post trying to explain where your dislike comes from was pathetic and the kind of argument you'd expect to be put forward by a 14 year old. Grow a pair, son.
 
Maybe they are not doing things on the cheap. Maybe they are just doing things within their means.

What owners in the prem would you swap them for, Rafiagra? Would you want a sugar daddy type owner a la Chelsea and City?

Define sugar daddy type owner? Just someone with billions?

Didn't City set up a 200mil academy 4 or 5 years ago? Fair enough I can't recall any academy player properly making the breakthrough to the first team yet and cynics will obviously suggest it's all to meet the homegrown quota or whatever but there's not to say they won't start bringing a few through in the coming years. That academy brought massive employment to the area as well. From what I can see/hear, City's owners seem to have a real passion for the Club and ambition to move it forward. They've really taken to the English game and of course they're ridiculous wealth helps matter but they've clearly pumped money into the squad and backed their Manager's whilst at the same time being aware of the importance of youth coming through.

As for Roman Abramovich, well his record speaks for itself as does his interest and passion for the Club.

I'm nearly 30 and have yet to see Liverpool win the League....the days of let's do things the Liverpool way are gone...it's a largely money orientated Sport. Fail to compete with the rest financially and chances are you get left behind. It's a bit sad to see how some Liverpool fans see content with this mediocrity and us not giving it a proper go....I guess it justo becomes the norm after a while. Me personally, I've been on their case for a number of years and for loads of different reason's. I just don't like how they go about their business and get this overriding feeling they just do the bear minimum...and I find that difficult to accept
 
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Maybe they are not doing things on the cheap. Maybe they are just doing things within their means.

What owners in the prem would you swap them for, Rafiagra? Would you want a sugar daddy type owner a la Chelsea and City?

City's owners would be ideal - sure they've pumped a ridiculous amount of money in, but have also built a lot of infrastructure around it. However, its only when they've got Txiki in that they seem to have really got their shit together off the field. Am surprised FSG have never done likewise.
 
Is that exclusive to those two? What about Klavan and Karius? They've been disasters too. There have been too many instances of missed targets and embarrassing, fruitless journeys around Europe, by the likes of Ian Ayre & Parry. The Pennant story and how we lost out on Alves, how we ended up with Mario, how we failed to get Deli Alli. How we lost Torres, Masher, Xabi, Mereilles, Suarez and Sterling. The fault of that lies with the owners and previous owners, and it's had a detrimental effect on the teams, the managers and our ability to attract players. It's something that's been rotting away at the club for decades now. So people can be forgiven for thinking it's a different season but the same old amateur shite.

Karius and Klavan further emphasise my point. Unless people are wanting to pin those two on the owners also. Saying that, give Karius time.

As far as the players leaving are concerned, that is down to nothing more than richer and more successful clubs coming in for them. We do it to clubs with less resources than ourselves and in turn better resourced clubs do it to us. Nothing the owners can do about that I'm afraid. Except maybe print more money.
 
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Define sugar daddy type owner? Just someone with billions?

Didn't City set up a 200mil academy 4 or 5 years ago? Fair enough I can't recall any academy player properly making the breakthrough to the first team yet and cynics will obviously suggest it's all to meet the homegrown quota or whatever but there's not to say they won't start bringing a few through in the coming years. That academy brought massive employment to the area as well. From what I can see/hear, City's owners seem to have a real passion for the Club and ambition to move it forward. They've really taken to the English game and of course they're ridiculous wealth helps matter but they've clearly pumped money into the squad and backed their Manager's whilst at the same time being aware of the importance of youth coming through.

As for Roman Abromovich, well his record speaks for itself as does his interest and passion for the Club.

I'm nearly 30 and have yet to see Liverpool win the League....the days of let's do things the Liverpool way are gone...it's a largely money orientated Sport. Fail to compete with the rest financially and chances are you get left behind. It's a bit sad to see how some Liverpool fans see content with this mediocrity and us not giving it a proper go....I guess it justo becomes the norm after a while. Me personally, I've been on their case for a number of years and for loads of different reason's. I just don't like how they go about their business and get this overriding feeling they just do the bear minimum...and I find that difficult to accept

Yeah, I get it, Gary. You want richer owners. I guess we'll have to make do for now until a sugar daddy comes a knockin'.
 
City's owners would be ideal - sure they've pumped a ridiculous amount of money in, but have also built a lot of infrastructure around it. However, its only when they've got Txiki in that they seem to have really got their shit together off the field. Am surprised FSG have never done likewise.

Which also takes money. But, yeah, I get your guy's view now. I just thought there may have been more to it, that's all.
 
FSG have made some dreadful decisions, but they've also done some very good things.

There hasn't been the desire (or perhaps means) to compete with the most successful, richest clubs in the world, and unfortunately three of those clubs are in our own league.

I do still cringe that FSG did think they were so fucking smart that they could adopt a more scientific and calculating approach to football transfers and wages and get success on the cheap, but perhaps they have finally been disabused of that notion.

However, I said more than 5 years ago that we'd never win the title under FSG and I'm still right in that assessment.
 
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