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Downing

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[quote author=singlerider link=topic=44931.msg1355271#msg1355271 date=1309041863]
I think the Riera comparison is pretty fair - a player that is by no means great, but will probably give us a better balance and offer something to the team.

Unfortunately at way more than double the price it seems
[/quote]

We played better as a team when Riera was in it, his ball retention and passing was good. Hopefully Downing will do that and a lot more, and if he does we will be a much more balanced team. I'd have loved someone with a sexy name & game over on the LW but there's no doubt that Downing will improve us.

The transfer fees we are paying (except Carroll) are just following the market (for big clubs) & inflation from increased prize money and sponsorship. As I said earlier in the thread, Downing is 25, English and a current England international ... all of which exclude him from the Bargain Bin bracket.
 
Downing doesn't go as missing as Riera used to. He works pretty damn hard. He's also quicker.

Young is better than both though. It's shit that the Mancs got him.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=44931.msg1355325#msg1355325 date=1309064848]
Downing doesn't go as missing as Riera used to. He works pretty damn hard. He's also quicker.

Young is better than both though. It's shit that the Mancs got him.
[/quote]

Young goes missing a lot more than Downing though.
 
I've just renewed my season ticket thinking I've just paid £725 to have the privilege of watching Stewart fucking downing. I've never come away from a match thinking he'd even been ok, never mind played well!
 
English players are so overrated it's untrue. I'd say about double what you should pay for them based on ability. We spend 70 million on a set of average players when we could of got similar or better quality for less money by decent scouting?

This is not the moneyball tactics I was expecting. Don't get me wrong I hope they all come good it's just all these lads have a potential championship level whiff about them too...70 million Jesus I hope they know what they are doing.

The future of our club is in their hands. I'm really hoping Commoli doesn't turn out to be the useless twat Redknapp reckons he was. Not that old candle face is ever right about much.
 
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=44931.msg1355324#msg1355324 date=1309064510]
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=44931.msg1355271#msg1355271 date=1309041863]
I think the Riera comparison is pretty fair - a player that is by no means great, but will probably give us a better balance and offer something to the team.

Unfortunately at way more than double the price it seems
[/quote]

We played better as a team when Riera was in it, his ball retention and passing was good. Hopefully Downing will do that and a lot more, and if he does we will be a much more balanced team. I'd have loved someone with a sexy name & game over on the LW but there's no doubt that Downing will improve us.

The transfer fees we are paying (except Carroll) are just following the market (for big clubs) & inflation from increased prize money and sponsorship. As I said earlier in the thread, Downing is 25, English and a current England international ... all of which exclude him from the Bargain Bin bracket.
[/quote]


Transfer fees are whatever anyone is willing to pay, and how good your scouts are.

We're mugs, and our scouts are shit.
 
Kenny has obviously had a significant influence over our recruitment plans and wants these players. I'd be surprised if Commolli left to his own devices would've spent 70M on Carroll, Downing, Adam and Henderson.

So whilst I'm concerned and a little disappointed with how we've chosen to spend our money so far, I'm still waiting to see if / how Kenny pulls it all together next season. It'd be quite something if it all just 'works'.

And I'm still hoping that we'll see a couple 'interesting' (doesn't have to mean expensive or marquee) signings from abroad yet.
 
young is quicker but downing is a better crosser.
downing plays with his brain more but young (imho) has more skill.
if I'm being honest I think the mancs have got the better player of the two.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=44931.msg1355353#msg1355353 date=1309077960]
young is quicker but downing is a better crosser.
downing plays with his brain more but young (imho) has more skill.
Downing is much more consistent and works harder than Young
if I'm being honest I think the mancs Liverpool have got the better player of the two.
[/quote]Agrees with young Neil
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=44931.msg1355353#msg1355353 date=1309077960]
young is quicker but downing is a better crosser.
downing plays with his brain more but young (imho) has more skill.
if I'm being honest I think the mancs have got the better player of the two.
[/quote]

Well Villa fans would agree with you Neil seeing as he was their player of the season.
 
As it stands now, yeah.

Downing > Young.

Young is probably going to do very well for them now though, since the lazy sod has finally got his 'dream move'.
 
Downing may have had a better season, doesn't necessarily make him a better player.

As has been pointed out a billion times in this thread, by a lot of posters, I hope we sign somebody better. And if we do sign Downing, I hope it's not for a fee as high as has been touted.

I think he's okay, he'd add balance to our team, but there are definitely better players available out there - and possibly at a snip of Downings value.
 
[quote author=Halmeister link=topic=44931.msg1355365#msg1355365 date=1309079847]
Downing may have had a better season, doesn't necessarily make him a better player.

As has been pointed out a billion times in this thread, by a lot of posters, I hope we sign somebody better. And if we do sign Downing, I hope it's not for a fee as high as has been touted.

I think he's okay, he'd add balance to our team, but there are definitely better players available out there - and possibly at a snip of Downings value.
[/quote]

yeah, cos it's that easy.

I'm seriously beginning to think most of our fans truly are deluded about what the value of players in this summers market is. Just because player X (Young) has a sell on clause with buy out figure in his contract doesn't immediately mean player Y (Downing) value goes down.

In fact the reverse is true. Villa knew they didn't have to sell & they needed to get a good price to placate the fans over losing two of their best players. They couldn't get that on Young, for the reasons just mentioned.

Meanwhile, I'd be interested to hear these alternatives for a LW at a 'snip' of the price. Maybe you should email the club, the revelation they exist may mean we buy 4 left wingers all as good as Downing for the same amount of money.
 
At the end of the summer we can post a list of better players sold for less than Downing. There will be loads.

It's transfers like this which are killing us. We're vastly overpaying to become moderately better. We will never win the league by making signings like this.

I thought the introduction of a DOF would have stopped this kind of nonsense, but since Kenny has the final say on transfers according to Commoli it seems like we'll continue to waste money we can't afford to.
 
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=44931.msg1355368#msg1355368 date=1309080426]
[quote author=Halmeister link=topic=44931.msg1355365#msg1355365 date=1309079847]
Downing may have had a better season, doesn't necessarily make him a better player.

As has been pointed out a billion times in this thread, by a lot of posters, I hope we sign somebody better. And if we do sign Downing, I hope it's not for a fee as high as has been touted.

I think he's okay, he'd add balance to our team, but there are definitely better players available out there - and possibly at a snip of Downings value.
[/quote]

yeah, cos it's that easy.

I'm seriously beginning to think most of our fans truly are deluded about what the value of players in this summers market is. Just because player X (Young) has a sell on clause with buy out figure in his contract doesn't immediately mean player Y (Downing) value goes down.

In fact the reverse is true. Villa knew they didn't have to sell & they needed to get a good price to placate the fans over losing two of their best players. They couldn't get that on Young, for the reasons just mentioned.

Meanwhile, I'd be interested to hear these alternatives for a LW at a 'snip' of the price. Maybe you should email the club, the revelation they exist may mean we buy 4 left wingers all as good as Downing for the same amount of money.
[/quote]

I don't think you could buy FOUR wingers for the price of downing but I do think you could pick up n'zog (imho a better player than downing) for less than downing.
 
N. Zogbia is a lot like young in that he's direct with skill. But ball greedy though and can go missing

Not that I'd complain if we bought zog
 
Ngozbia isn't better than Downing.

Ross, you're a glass half full with a hole in the bottom kinda guy anyway. Whilst I admire your pragmatism at times I think it colours your judgement adversely too.

We're overpaying, yes. We seem to have a distinct plan of British players & that means we will overpay. However, look back at how much we've spent on unproven foreign players who havent made it in the last 20 years. Whilst theses signings alone wont win us the league, if they get us near challenging, the lure of CL footy will be on the table nest season.

Those British homegrowns will be worth as much or more once again due to the homegrown rule & if we need to sell we should be able to recoup most of the value & put it into top class players.

The sad truth is we couldn't attract those type of players now without wasting a damn sight more cash, so the choice is above average unproven foreign players, or above average proven Premiership players with a higher price tag. I honestly don't see a real alternative.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=44931.msg1355374#msg1355374 date=1309080817]
At the end of the summer we can post a list of better players sold for less than Downing. There will be loads.

It's transfers like this which are killing us. We're vastly overpaying to become moderately better. We will never win the league by making signings like this.

I thought the introduction of a DOF would have stopped this kind of nonsense, but since Kenny has the final say on transfers according to Commoli it seems like we'll continue to waste money we can't afford to.
[/quote]

if we pick up downing for say 17m it really will be interesting to see which wingers (this summer) go for less. for the record is mata goes for less than 20M I will be amazed
 
I'd certainly class myself in the "In Kenny we trust group", but i bet the response over some of our supposed signings would be very different if any other manager was in charge of us.
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=44931.msg1355362#msg1355362 date=1309079445]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=44931.msg1355353#msg1355353 date=1309077960]
young is quicker but downing is a better crosser.
downing plays with his brain more but young (imho) has more skill.
if I'm being honest I think the mancs have got the better player of the two.
[/quote]

Well Villa fans would agree with you Neil seeing as he was their player of the season.
[/quote]

Lucas won our player of the season and is he our best player? He isn't even in the top 3!
 
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=44931.msg1355378#msg1355378 date=1309081236]
Ngozbia isn't better than Downing.

Ross, you're a glass half full with a hole in the bottom kinda guy anyway. Whilst I admire your pragmatism at times I think it colours your judgement adversely too.

We're overpaying, yes. We seem to have a distinct plan of British players & that means we will overpay. However, look back at how much we've spent on unproven foreign players who havent made it in the last 20 years. Whilst theses signings alone wont win us the league, if they get us near challenging, the lure of CL footy will be on the table nest season.

Those British homegrowns will be worth as much or more once again due to the homegrown rule & if we need to sell we should be able to recoup most of the value & put it into top class players.

The sad truth is we couldn't attract those type of players now without wasting a damn sight more cash, so the choice is above average unproven foreign players, or above average proven Premiership players with a higher price tag. I honestly don't see a real alternative.
[/quote]

foxey, you are exactly right. I will also add, you'd think these players will be less likely to disappear when the climate changes, the time our challenge usually crumbles.
 
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=44931.msg1355383#msg1355383 date=1309081333]
I'd certainly class myself in the "In Kenny we trust group", but i bet the response over some of our supposed signings would be very different if any other manager was in charge of us.
[/quote]

any other manager bar kenny himself would have been slaughtered if they bought carroll for 35m.
 
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=44931.msg1355378#msg1355378 date=1309081236]
Ngozbia isn't better than Downing.

Ross, you're a glass half full with a hole in the bottom kinda guy anyway. Whilst I admire your pragmatism at times I think it colours your judgement adversely too.

We're overpaying, yes. We seem to have a distinct plan of British players & that means we will overpay. However, look back at how much we've spent on unproven foreign players who havent made it in the last 20 years. Whilst theses signings alone wont win us the league, if they get us near challenging, the lure of CL footy will be on the table nest season.

Those British homegrowns will be worth as much or more once again due to the homegrown rule & if we need to sell we should be able to recoup most of the value & put it into top class players.

The sad truth is we couldn't attract those type of players now without wasting a damn sight more cash, so the choice is above average unproven foreign players, or above average proven Premiership players with a higher price tag. I honestly don't see a real alternative.
[/quote]

"Premiership proven" - the greatest myth in the game Jon. A device used to add millions onto the price tag of shite players.

Have a look at our "Premiership proven" signings in recent years - Konchesky, Cole, Zenden, Crouch, Bellamy, Pennant, Benayoun, Keane, Johnson, Heskey, Barmby, Hamann, Henchoz, Finnan, Kewell.

The only thing we guaranteed by buying all those Premiership proven players was that we'd waste money.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=44931.msg1355374#msg1355374 date=1309080817]
At the end of the summer we can post a list of better players sold for less than Downing. There will be loads.

It's transfers like this which are killing us. We're vastly overpaying to become moderately better. We will never win the league by making signings like this.

I thought the introduction of a DOF would have stopped this kind of nonsense, but since Kenny has the final say on transfers according to Commoli it seems like we'll continue to waste money we can't afford to.
[/quote]

where exactly has our tactic of buying cheaper foreign talent got us in the last 10 years?
 
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=44931.msg1355383#msg1355383 date=1309081333]
I'd certainly class myself in the "In Kenny we trust group", but i bet the response over some of our supposed signings would be very different if any other manager was in charge of us.
[/quote]

This is the reality of it all.
 
It's interesting to see how these threads start to get polarized. There genuinely are one or two that are flapping about being a 'lil over-concerned and at times hysterical, however the response to that, which carries a large element of "hey, I really *get* how things work and am really level headed" tends to get handed out to the rest of the forum who are presenting reasonable arguments most of the time.

I remember last summer there was a fair amount of arguments being put forward detailing how Hodgson was going to steady the ship, get rid of the foreign nonsense, bring in some good 'ol British know how and that Konchesky was being derided for being not being some fancy dan foreign name, knows the league and will shore up a problem position for us. 'Nuff said about that, eh?

There is a lot of that going on as well now. And whilst half of it isn't going to be anywhere near as wrong as it was last summer (because this time we're actually targeting reasonable players if not spectacular) the delivery is still just as condescending, patronizing and easy to see through.
 
"There are definitely better players available out there - and possibly at a snip of Downings value."

I don't think matt jarvis, matt etherington, kieron richardson, damien duff, morten pedersen, jerome thomas or n'zobia is better than downing, although they could be a snip of downing's value.

I know there could be some better option from abroad, but we're not sure if they could make it (example: Babel).
 
Whoa there Ross.

Konchesky, Cole, Zenden, Crouch, Bellamy, Pennant, Benayoun, Keane, Johnson, Heskey, Barmby, Hamann, Henchoz, Finnan, Kewell.

I'd argue those in bold were worth the cash, definitely.

You're serious about Hamann & Henchoz?! Fucking hell.
 
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=44931.msg1355395#msg1355395 date=1309081975]
Whoa there Ross.

Konchesky, Cole, Zenden, Crouch, Bellamy, Pennant, Benayoun, Keane, Johnson, Heskey, Barmby, Hamann, Henchoz, Finnan, Kewell.

I'd argue those in bold were worth the cash, definitely.

You're serious about Hamann & Henchoz?! Fucking hell.
[/quote]

I'm listing them all out for the sake of completeness. You can see Premiership proven means fuck all in the grand scheme of things- it usually indicated someone is just past their best as was the case with a number of those players.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=44931.msg1355390#msg1355390 date=1309081691]
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=44931.msg1355378#msg1355378 date=1309081236]
Ngozbia isn't better than Downing.

Ross, you're a glass half full with a hole in the bottom kinda guy anyway. Whilst I admire your pragmatism at times I think it colours your judgement adversely too.

We're overpaying, yes. We seem to have a distinct plan of British players & that means we will overpay. However, look back at how much we've spent on unproven foreign players who havent made it in the last 20 years. Whilst theses signings alone wont win us the league, if they get us near challenging, the lure of CL footy will be on the table nest season.

Those British homegrowns will be worth as much or more once again due to the homegrown rule & if we need to sell we should be able to recoup most of the value & put it into top class players.

The sad truth is we couldn't attract those type of players now without wasting a damn sight more cash, so the choice is above average unproven foreign players, or above average proven Premiership players with a higher price tag. I honestly don't see a real alternative.
[/quote]

"Premiership proven" - the greatest myth in the game Jon. A device used to add millions onto the price tag of shite players.

Have a look at our "Premiership proven" signings in recent years - Konchesky, Cole, Zenden, Crouch, Bellamy, Pennant, Benayoun, Keane, Johnson, Heskey, Barmby, Hamann, Henchoz, Finnan, Kewell.

The only thing we guaranteed by buying all those Premiership proven players was that we'd waste money.


[/quote]

Konchesky - wasn't expensive
Cole - no transfer fee
Zenden - wasn't expensive
Crouch - would be a good option if he were still here
Bellamy would be a good option if still here
Pennant agree, big mistake to pass on alves
Benayoun - would be a good option if still here
Keane agree, shit signing
Johnson - I have no problems with johnson
Heskey - we got one brilliant trophy season out of him
Barmby - was good when here
Hamann - can't believe you've brought him up
Henchoz - can't believe you've brought him up
finnan - can't believe you've brought him up
Kewell - started well, hampered by injuries
 
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