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Die Verteidigung

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Windom Earle

Windom Earle

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A lot is being made about Liverpool's defence right now (as has been the case for the last few years...) - I believe Charlie Nicholas is the latest to offer his "expert analysis" on the subject.

Is it really as much of a problem as is being made out?

It seems like pundits are falling on one of two sides;

  • Liverpool's defence is a problem, it will cost them.
  • Liverpool's attack will outgun most teams.

I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Liverpool have conceded 10 goals in seven league games - but five of those goals came in the first two games. In that same period, Liverpool have scored 18 league goals. Contrast that to leaders Man City who have also scored 18 and have conceded seven - keeping only the one clean sheet (but it seems like that is all it takes for talk of defensive problems to drift away...)

Obviously, an inability to keep a clean sheet will cost us in the tight games (Spurs for example) - but Burnley and Spurs aside; we have scored two and up in every game and you don't win by not scoring goals.

Does the defence bother you like it does Charlie Nicholas? Or do you take the Michael Owen stance, that Liverpool will outscore every team - enabling them to win 9/10 games (wait, what?)?

I know which one is more exciting at least.
 
High pressing always leaves you exposed if someone misplaces a pass, it's a risk inherent in the system... but we're awful on set pieces and that desperately needs sorting if we're going to be challenging.
 
Woland said:
High pressing always leaves you exposed if someone misplaces a pass, it's a risk inherent in the system... but we're awful on set pieces and that desperately needs sorting if we're going to be challenging.
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I don't have the numbers on set piece goals conceded this season (I think @rurikbird was compiling them somewhere though).

I know we were terrible last year at both conceding and scoring from set pieces. Has that carried through into this season? Looks like we are joint second on goals scored with three, and top with seven if you add Milner's penalties back in.
 
Sticking men on the posts for corners would take 10% of our goals conceded count at the end of the season.

I genuinely find it odd that no teams in the prem do it anymore
 
manwithnoname said:
Teams with poor defences don't win titles.
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Not strictly true if you have the firepower to outscore your opponents consistently.

Man Utd won titles in 96/97, 99/00 and 12/13 conceding 44, 45 and 43 goals respectively. Just to illustrate the point, Liverpool had the same defensive record as Utd in 12/13 and finished 7th.
 
Sadly for me I'm always overly optimistic when it comes to LFC. Having said that, the point can be made that we've had a relatively tough set of fixtures to start the season and even though 10 goals against in 7 games is hardly impressive our record should start to improve soon. Hopefully an easier run of fixtures will coincide with the Lovren/Matip partnership continuing to gel and getting better and better as the develop the partnership. The goalkeeper issue is obviously a worry as Karius is probably no better than Ming but I still think we will tighten up at the back sufficiently to enable us to mount a title challenge.
 
Pesam said:
Sadly for me I'm always overly optimistic when it comes to LFC. Having said that, the point can be made that we've had a relatively tough set of fixtures to start the season and even though 10 goals against in 7 games is hardly impressive our record should start to improve soon. Hopefully an easier run of fixtures will coincide with the Lovren/Matip partnership continuing to gel and getting better and better as the develop the partnership. The goalkeeper issue is obviously a worry as Karius is probably no better than Ming but I still think we will tighten up at the back sufficiently to enable us to mount a title challenge.
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I agree that at this point Karius and Mignolet are on a par. They both present different problems though.

Would you sooner have Mignolet with his superior shot-stopping, or Karius and his better distribution? Bearing in mind that Mignolet has been a part of the defence for the majority of the goals Liverpool have conceded this season.

I think I'd take Karius still, personally.
 
Windom Earle said:
I agree that at this point Karius and Mignolet are on a par. They both present different problems though.

Would you sooner have Mignolet with his superior shot-stopping, or Karius and his better distribution? Bearing in mind that Mignolet has been a part of the defence for the majority of the goals Liverpool have conceded this season.

I think I'd take Karius still, personally.
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Tough call but if, as I suspect, Karius is a "shouter" who likes to tell his defenders what he expects/wants from them then I'd give him the nod for now. Ming seems very introverted which does not augur well for a keeper.
 
Disagree. The weaker side of Mignolet's game notwithstanding, I'll bet his shot-stopping has saved us more points than Karius' strengths have gained.
 
Hansern said:
So City wont win the league?
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They've conceded three less than us, so it's probably not as much of a concern for them yet

It's certainly a concern for us as we've conceded more goals than any other side in the Top 10 positions in the league
 
Judge Jules said:
Disagree. The weaker side of Mignolet's game notwithstanding, I'll bet his shot-stopping has saved us more points than Karius' strengths have gained.
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I'm hardly giving Karius my unwavering support given that I'm not convinced by either of 'em and my gut feeling is that we will be moaning about needing a new keeper regularly during the season regardless of which of them plays most games.
 
manwithnoname said:
They've conceded three less than us, so it's probably not as much of a concern for them yet

It's certainly a concern for us as we've conceded more goals than any other side in the Top 10 positions in the league
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And if you compare the fixture lists?
They've played Utd and Spurs but other than that its been quite easy.
Those 3 goals came away to Arsenal..
 
Leicester had a ropey defence in the first half of last season, there was much mirth in the media reporting his reward of pizza when they eventually achieved a clean sheet at the end of October!
We have played 5 away games out of 7, we are bound to have conceded more with these fixtures, and some of those goals were a bit unlucky or stupid too. I think we can already see we are better than last year and I would expect that improvement to continue, injuries notwithstanding. Milner and Matip have plugged problem positions, Lovren, although not great, has improved.
 
Hansern said:
And if you compare the fixture lists?
They've played Utd and Spurs but other than that its been quite easy.
Those 3 goals came away to Arsenal..
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We haven't managed a clean sheet in any game

Including conceding two to Burnley.

I don't think City will be great defensively either, given how they play and also how shit Bravo is

But we are worse
 
Pesam said:
I'm hardly giving Karius my unwavering support given that I'm not convinced by either of 'em and my gut feeling is that we will be moaning about needing a new keeper regularly during the season regardless of which of them plays most games.
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I think this team really needs a quick sweeper-type keeper who can start counters - much the same way that Reina used to.

I don't think either of them are the ideal keeper for that job, but Karius has shown more of that in fleeting glimpses than Mignolet has. Karius also has time on his side given that he is five years younger; I can't see Mignolet's keeping style changing from what he does now, he is who he is.
 
manwithnoname said:
We haven't managed a clean sheet in any game

Including conceding two to Burnley.

I don't think City will be great defensively either, given how they play and also how shit Bravo is

But we are worse
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City have one clean sheet.

We conceded 3 to Arsenal and 2 to Burnely. After that we've conceded 1 per game which could be looked at as progress I guess.

I'm not saying we havent got defensive issues, we obviously do and need to work on that. But when you look at our fixture list. 5 away games in 7. Away to Chelsea, Spurs and Arsenal. It will have an effect.

Worst thing is, two of the goals conceded should have disallowed. Vardys goal was wrongly given and Baston was offside when they got the corner they scored from this weekend. But you cant change that.
 
manwithnoname said:
We haven't managed a clean sheet in any game

Including conceding two to Burnley.

I don't think City will be great defensively either, given how they play and also how shit Bravo is

But we are worse
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City's solitary clean sheet came at home to Bournemouth. As Hansern rightly points out, they have had a much easier run on paper. Sunderland, Stoke, West Ham and Swansea have all scored against them. Clean sheets are not as easy to come by in this league as they used to be.
 
Windom E: largely agree with what you say about Mignolet, but I'm not sure Klopp would. He praised Mignolet's intelligence last season and my impression is that he still thinks he can improve him.

Either way, while I'm all for planning ahead, sometimes short-term priorities also have to be met in the meantime. Beating the Mancs is one of those and IMO it'll be better served by picking Mignolet.
 
While not excusing the overall standard of our defending, it's often ignored by the pundits that some of the crosses that have led to goals have been absolute bastard balls to defend. Even if we improve dramatically I'm sure even the hardest crosses into the most dangerous areas will be dismissed by some analysts as 'more poor defending from Liverpool'. It'll take a hell of long time for that to stop.

I think we have improved at defending the first ball. Now we're getting caught flatfooted for the second ball.
 
We were outgunning teams in 13/14 but ultimately our defence cost us the title. We should have had a goal difference about 10+ more than we had.
 
gkmacca said:
While not excusing the overall standard of our defending, it's often ignored by the pundits that some of the crosses that have led to goals have been absolute bastard balls to defend. Even if we improve dramatically I'm sure even the hardest crosses into the most dangerous areas will be dismissed by some analysts as 'more poor defending from Liverpool'. It'll take a hell of long time for that to stop.

I think we have improved at defending the first ball. Now we're getting caught flatfooted for the second ball.
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Yes, much the same as Liverpool's set piece problems being trotted out from the first set piece goal conceded.

And I guess that was largely my point with this thread, the defence has become a big talking point already but the discussion for most pundits has no context to it whatsoever.
 
We've had a tough start, but some of the goals let in were very poor. We should never have been conceeded at home to 10 man Hull, the Swansea goal was very poor (as was the defending for the two sitters they missed), both full backs were caught out against Spurs and Matip was let run 40 yards against Chelsea.
 
Judge Jules said:
Windom E: largely agree with what you say about Mignolet, but I'm not sure Klopp would. He praised Mignolet's intelligence last season and my impression is that he still thinks he can improve him.

Either way, while I'm all for planning ahead, sometimes short-term priorities also have to be met in the meantime. Beating the Mancs is one of those and IMO it'll be better served by picking Mignolet.
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I'll be very surprised if he ditches Karius this quickly. He'd have to be performing at "peak-Mignolet" in training for that to happen.

All that said, when he was signed I do recall voicing some concerns about his size (not the tallest, slight) and his purported weakness on high balls and preference for punching rather than catching.

Of course, I was entirely reassured when someone made up some stats about his "99%" success rate on crosses, and somebody else quacking on about how they do actually need to be catch crosses in Germany, and the requirements were exactly the same, and don't worry, he's second only to Neuer and all that shite.
 
Team A wins the league with a record of:
  • 15 clean sheets
  • 36 goals conceded
  • 68 goals scored

Team B finishes second with a record of:
  • 16 clean sheets
  • 36 goals conceded
  • 65 goals scored

10 points separate the two teams at the end of 38 games.

Would Team B have benefited more from a better defensive record, or a better attacking record over the course of the season?
 
manwithnoname said:
I'll be very surprised if he ditches Karius this quickly. He'd have to be performing at "peak-Mignolet" in training for that to happen.

All that said, when he was signed I do recall voicing some concerns about his size (not the tallest, slight) and his purported weakness on high balls and preference for punching rather than catching.

Of course, I was entirely reassured when someone made up some stats about his "99%" success rate on crosses, and somebody else quacking on about how they do actually need to be catch crosses in Germany, and the requirements were exactly the same, and don't worry, he's second only to Neuer and all that shite.
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I think Rurik posted something about that given what you stated wasnt true.

189 cm is tall enough for a goalkeeper. Taller than Lloris etc..

Doesnt help Begovic much being 195. He flaps more than Ming. Same could be said for Hart etc.
 
The best and most successful Scandinavian coach ever faced partly the same problem. Fantastic attacking side that some times exposed themselves too much and let in some easy goals. Once after a game they won 4-3 he was later in the week confronted by a journo who asked if they had been working on the areas that made them concede 3 goals in the weekend. His reply was classy:

"No. That game is still 4-3 if I am not mistaken".

People worry too much about things. We are constantly improving, establishing us as one of the teams to really fear. A little like the season we came second. Teams are worried prior meeting Liverpool. Let them try to attack our weeknesses and we will gung ho them!
 
I think the manner in which we've conceded goals and our response to them has been as much a problem as anything.

We all know those games, the games where:
  • we've been on top but the opposition get one goal and suddenly look likely to get another one or three.
  • we start like we're on drugs and look like we can concede at any moment (and usually do)
  • .. and so forth
I don't think it's realistic for us to expect a rock solid defence any time soon but the way in which we approach games and in particular the way in which we respond to conceding in tough situations needs to improve. Thankfully, it looks like that improvement might be coming this season.

There are some similarities between the way Spurs and we play (though we are more fluid up top and have more floaty attacking midfielders) and they are pretty solid so ultimately I'd don't think it's unreasonable to hope for a team that can defend well.
 
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