Dicks Nephew

[Hansern]

The fee is inflated and the biggest reason not to sign him.
If Sule had been available it would have made much more sense to go after him for the quoted 25 mill.

We're also interested in Michael Keane who will cost about 20-25 mill. Will he add the same quality?

50 mill is a lot mind, and we're not that loaded.

 

[rurikbird]

I get what you lot are saying and 50M for a defender is indeed crazy... but I would still do it. I think about it this way – a settled, top-class pair of CBs is positively priceless, it's a foundation for the whole team and it's almost impossible to be successful without one. The lack of quality and consistency in this area is what ultimately derailed several promising and talented LFC teams in recent past. Klopp's Dortmund was built on the best CB pairing in Germany in Hummels-Subotic, with Santana also considered one of the best "3rd choice" CBs around. You could say that Klopp's high-energy attacking style requires a strong and cool-headed CB pair, but really who doesn't? Virtually every successful team I can remember had real top quality in this position and if you think about it, many other teams' struggles can be attributed to CB problems – Bayern getting knocked out of CL every Spring lately, because every time they had to rely on a make-shift defensive pair, Barca's problems when Pujol was injured or not properly replaced, Man City losing ground because of Kompany's injury issues, Chelsea sporadic defensive vulnerability after Terry lost the starting place, United's failure to replace Vidic and Ferdinand... If we don't solve the issue of defensive foundation, all other investment in other parts of the team will not mean all that much, because we'll be plagued by the same old problems we've seen every year since the heyday of Carra and Hyypia/Agger.

So if we genuinely have a chance to sign a player we think could be foundational in this sense, I think you just have to pay whatever it takes. At least we signed Matip for free and I think while he's been far from perfect in his first season here (and uncharacteristically plagued by injuries too), he's not yet at the prime age for a CB at 25 – I've seen enough to think he can be a part of a top-class pairing in a few years. He's an intelligent and cool-headed defender, with good height, speed and comfortable on the ball – a bit like Hummels. Now he needs a partner who is physically dominant, but at the same time also calm and technically sound – Lovren is actually the right type, but I think he's just a bit short on quality in all areas. I would be very happy with him as the 3rd choice defender, like Santana. I think age-wise we should be looking at someone around Matip's age, so 24-26, which would give us a foundation for the next 5+ years. I don't think we should sign another 21-22 year old CB and then wait several seasons for him to mature – by that time the likes of Coutinho will probably not be here already and the momentum of Klopp's appointment will have been squandered. So how many CBs on the market fulfill those criteria?

In EPL I think it's Van Dijk (25 years old) and possibly Alderweireld (28), but I sincerely doubt the reports about the exit clause and besides, why would he leave Spurs for us at this point? I wanted us to sign Vertonghen for years since he came to Spurs, but now the chance is surely gone – and besides I think with Matip here we now need a different type of a defender, more physical rather than cerebral. Kalidou Koulibaly from Napoli fits the bill too and I also like Rudiger from Roma (we haven't been linked to him in the press, but that might not mean anything). Matip was the one to get in Germany and Klopp got him – right now I don't see anyone else in that category there. I like Sule, but he's a bit young and going to Bayern anyway. Not sure about France or Spain, but I don't think we've been linked to anyone from there except a young PSG prospect. So basically it seems like it's going to be either Van Dijk or Koulibaly as our top choice, and Chelsea and us are reportedly interested in both. Now, I think Rosco's concern about Van Dijk's injury is valid – if it's anything like Hendo's seemingly incurable problem, then we need to stay away and somehow find another solution.

 

[peekay]

I hate the way Ross responded to Hansen but have to agree with him in terms of content. We are limping across the line this season with no European games. Next year, the mid week games is going to add more games. We need to be very efficient in our purchases.

The injury issue which Ross pointed out is a huge concern.

I feel that VDV is a sort of cherry on the cake purchase which you make at 50 million if you have a great team. We are not there yet.

I also disagree that all purchases made from Southampton have been value for money. Mane and Clyne have been great but the rest (including Lallana) have been allright. We need to do better with that level of investment if we want to break into the top 4.

We need to start identifying and making purchases in the Hyppia, Alonso, Suarez, Torres talent bracket before they have a breakout season.

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[Kay Age El]

If you sell at inflated rates within the Premiership I don't mind us pay over the odds for class within the Prem as well. Sell Sakho and buy Dijk, and look at it as £25M lay-out = value.

All those injury hypothesis, unless you are a Doctor who's either examined the player himself or at least browsed through his journal, arent really worth the pixels they've occupied.

So that's that.

Oh and why is @Rosco always behaving so rude? Missed the 'nice to be nice' memo? PMS? IHTS? (Irrational Hatred Towards Scandos)

 

[Hansern]

Good post mate. @peekay

The injury concern is definetly valid, if it is indeed anything like that at all. At this point that is just speculation on our part.

Puel has said that they wont rush him back given that they have nothing to play for.

Latest update is from last week and he's back running, after surgery to a damaged ligament.
And might return for one of the last games. They said about 3 months out in the end of January. Thats not waaay of the mark.

I've got no problem with Ross saying injury is a valid concern for not signing him. Course it is.
But the level of seriousness he has given it should have been backed by some evidence at least when it contains stuff like not returning to the same quality as before.

That would have been demanded if it was the other way around.

Looking at similarities between injuries without knowing the details is like googling whatever illness you have, always cancer... So its pointless.

 

[Rosco]

Yeah i'll post the X-Rays in a minute.

If you know nothing about anything and deliberately avoid educating yourself on the issue at hand you can't come into the thread and demand evidence of anything. Just keep sticking your head in the sand. Then when shit goes wrong you can come in and say nobody could have predicted it would all go wrong.

Go and read the medical journal studies on Lisfranc injuries. Its all available to you. Read about plantar fasciitis while you're there. Google the foot and see what other ligament possibilities there are - are any of them better news ?

I do note, Hansern, you said earlier in this thread that he had an ankle injury and provided no evidence for your own 'speculation'. @peekay if he bothered to fucking read anything, take on board any information freely available to him i'd probably post more nicely to him. But he's ignorant, and attempts to be condesending whilst also being simply proven wrong too often to be taken seriously. He's a twitter bot who attempts to pick holes in every single post i make because he hates it so much when i'm right.

I do like how you've all copped on a bit and no longer have the raging hard on to spend 50m on a decent injured defender though.

So you should all be congratulated for being able to slightly alter your view after i've hit you over the head with some common sense.

 

[manwithnoname]

You really are worse than me.

 

[Hansern]

Yeah i'll post the X-Rays in a minute.

If you know nothing about anything and deliberately avoid educating yourself on the issue at hand you can't come into the thread and demand evidence of anything. Just keep sticking your head in the sand. Then when shit goes wrong you can come in and say nobody could have predicted it would all go wrong.

Go and read the medical journal studies on Lisfranc injuries. Its all available to you. Read about plantar fasciitis while you're there. Google the foot and see what other ligament possibilities there are - are any of them better news ?

I do note, Hansern, you said earlier in this thread that he had an ankle injury and provided no evidence for your own 'speculation'. @peekay if he bothered to fucking read anything, take on board any information freely available to him i'd probably post more nicely to him. But he's ignorant, and attempts to be condesending whilst also being simply proven wrong too often to be taken seriously. He's a twitter bot who attempts to pick holes in every single post i make because he hates it so much when i'm right.

I do like how you've all copped on a bit and no longer have the raging hard on to spend 50m on a decent injured defender though.

So you should all be congratulated for being able to slightly alter your view after i've hit you over the head with some common sense.

You're more wrong than right. Mostly wrong. The only reason I have to read your posts is because you cant ignore a mod. I'd ignore you in a heartbeat if possible.
There is no point in replying to your posts as you never admit to being wrong anyway.
Even though people provide facts that do prove otherwise.

So for future reference just stop quoting me, stop replying and stop mentioning me.

I'll do the same with your self obsessed, try hard to be funny, look at me I read some sports science and now know everything bullshit.

I'm not the one with some sort of complex he has to take out on the Internett behind a keyboard. The needy whiney attitude of a woman who has to be right all the time.
Its so sad you just have to laugh. Imagine spending your time on a Football forum trolling and being a cunt for no reason to other fans of the club you support.
Get a fucking life.

I'd call you what you really are, but I'd just get banned. Again. Just as you usually do.

 

[Rosco]

You really are worse than me.

I don't have your patience

 

[peekay]

Virtually every successful team I can remember had real top quality in this position and if you think about it, many other teams' struggles can be attributed to CB problems – Bayern getting knocked out of CL every Spring lately, because every time they had to rely on a make-shift defensive pair, Barca's problems when Pujol was injured or not properly replaced, Man City losing ground because of Kompany's injury issues, Chelsea sporadic defensive vulnerability after Terry lost the starting place, United's failure to replace Vidic and Ferdinand... If we don't solve the issue of defensive foundation, all other investment in other parts of the team will not mean all that much, because we'll be plagued by the same old problems we've seen every year since the heyday of Carra and Hyypia/Agger.

We are not at Bayern's or Chelsea's level. I think United's failures are more to do with Ferguson retiring than the lack of replacement of their central defensive pair. Man City and Barca have structural issues in the way they approach the game. I can understand spunking 50 million on VDV if we were constantly challenging for the league and falling short at the quarter or semi finals of the champions league.

I am not saying our defense is great. I am not saying VDV will not improve our defense. But I think one of the reasons for our defense being exposed more is the tactics being used. VDV is quite possibly a great defender but he also plays in a more defensive system. He will be more exposed here and most likely not appear as good as he was at Southampton. My worry is whether the improvement will provide value for the investment.

We have a lot of holes in our squad to fix. We need players who can play and influence the game when things are not going our way in many positions. A controlling midfielder would be a start. We have a lot of players who look great if they are played in position A with players B and C supporting and with the opposition team not having pacy strong players. When any of those conditions are not satisfied they wave the white flag and retreat. A replacement for Sturridge. A left back. A goalkeeper. If we invest in VDV, I dont think we will have the necessary finances to fix the other issues. Even if we achieve some success it will be built on a weak foundation which will collapse as soon as one domino falls (Suarez leaving, Mane leaving for AFCON or injured).

And there is the issue of his injury.

 

[manwithnoname]

You're more wrong than right. Mostly wrong. The only reason I have to read your posts is because you cant ignore a mod. I'd ignore you in a heartbeat if possible.
There is no point in replying to your posts as you never admit to being wrong anyway.
Even though people provide facts that do prove otherwise.

So for future reference just stop quoting me, stop replying and stop mentioning me.

I'll do the same with your self obsessed, try hard to be funny, look at me I read some sports science and now know everything bullshit.

I'm not the one with some sort of complex he has to take out on the Internett behind a keyboard. The needy whiney attitude of a woman who has to be right all the time.
Its so sad you just have to laugh. Imagine spending your time on a Football forum trolling and being a cunt for no reason to other fans of the club you support.
Get a fucking life.

I'd call you what you really are, but I'd just get banned. Again. Just as you usually do.

Don't get so worked up. It's Rosco for God's sake. He doesn't really give a shit, so why should you?

You're a consistent and regular poster who contributes to the Forum more than most, he doesn't really want you to leave. I think he likes you, but won't admit it.

I think he likes you a *lot*. As in 'share his Nuggets' a lot.

 

[Hansern]

Don't get so worked up. It's Rosco for God's sake. He doesn't really give a shit, so why should you?

You're a consistent and regular poster who contributes to the Forum more than most, he doesn't really want you to leave. I think he likes you, but won't admit it.

I think he likes you a *lot*. As in 'share his Nuggets' a lot.

I think so too. He likes me so much that he hates me for it. Its very complicated between us.
Might have to update my profile picture on Facebook with a McNugget in the background to show love and support.

 

[FoxForceFive]

Don't get so worked up. It's Rosco for God's sake. He doesn't really give a shit, so why should you?

You're a consistent and regular poster who contributes to the Forum more than most, he doesn't really want you to leave. I think he likes you, but won't admit it.

I think he likes you a *lot*. As in 'share his Nuggets' a lot.

Ross doesn't share his nuggets with anyone, not even his wife, or child.

 

[rurikbird]

We are not at Bayern's or Chelsea's level. I think United's failures are more to do with Ferguson retiring than the lack of replacement of their central defensive pair. Man City and Barca have structural issues in the way they approach the game. I can understand spunking 50 million on VDV if we were constantly challenging for the league and falling short at the quarter or semi finals of the champions league.

I am not saying our defense is great. I am not saying VDV will not improve our defense. But I think one of the reasons for our defense being exposed more is the tactics being used. VDV is quite possibly a great defender but he also plays in a more defensive system. He will be more exposed here and most likely not appear as good as he was at Southampton. My worry is whether the improvement will provide value for the investment.

We have a lot of holes in our squad to fix. We need players who can play and influence the game when things are not going our way in many positions. A controlling midfielder would be a start. We have a lot of players who look great if they are played in position A with players B and C supporting and with the opposition team not having pacy strong players. When any of those conditions are not satisfied they wave the white flag and retreat. A replacement for Sturridge. A left back. A goalkeeper. If we invest in VDV, I dont think we will have the necessary finances to fix the other issues. Even if we achieve some success it will be built on a weak foundation which will collapse as soon as one domino falls (Suarez leaving, Mane leaving for AFCON or injured).

And there is the issue of his injury.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here, mate. Your opinion seems to be that a top-class CB is a sort of luxury that a team like Bayern and Chelsea can afford and we can't; I think it's an absolute necessity for being truly competitive. If you don't have a settled, dominant CB partnership it's like a bathtub that's not been plugged at the bottom – no matter how much water you pour in it, it's going to drain and leak until you finally plug it. Look at Spurs – they are also not Chelsea or Bayern, but they managed to find a settled top-class CB pair in Vertonghen–Alderweireld (for very reasonable money too – and also a top-class GK in Lloris) and this gave them the foundation to challenge for the title despite a relatively thin squad and lack of winning experience in the team.

Also you blame our defensive issues on "tactics being used." I think it's quite clearly the opposite – we are being hurt time and time again by awful individual mistakes. Klopp is not Rodgers – he has proven that he knows how to set up a defense. His Dortmund team conceded 22 goals in their first Championship season – almost twice as little as Bayern (40). In the next season they conceded 25. He's certainly not a defensive coach like Mourinho and when the "gegenpressing" approach is not working for some reason it's true that his teams can be vulnerable – but when all elements come into place his teams are very hard to score against and one of the elements is certainly a settled, physical, tactically clever CB pairing – something we still do not have. So I'd much prefer that Klopp got the players with the qualities he wants rather than for him to change his approach to suit the imperfections of the players we currently have.

 

[Ryan]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here, mate. Your opinion seems to be that a top-class CB is a sort of luxury that a team like Bayern and Chelsea can afford and we can't; I think it's an absolute necessity for being truly competitive. If you don't have a settled, dominant CB partnership it's like a bathtub that's not been plugged at the bottom – no matter how much water you pour in it, it's going to drain and leak until you finally plug it. Look at Spurs – they are also not Chelsea or Bayern, but they managed to find a settled top-class CB pair in Vertonghen–Alderweireld (for very reasonable money too – and also a top-class GK in Lloris) and this gave them the foundation to challenge for the title despite a relatively thin squad and lack of winning experience in the team.

Also you blame our defensive issues on "tactics being used." I think it's quite clearly the opposite – we are being hurt time and time again by bad individual mistakes. Klopp is not Rodgers – he has proven that he knows how to set up a defense. His Dortmund team conceded 22 goals in their first Championship season – almost twice as little as Bayern (40). In the next season they conceded 25. He's certainly not a defensive coach like Mourinho and when the "gegenpressing" approach is not working for some reason it's true that his teams can be vulnerable – but when all elements come into place his teams are very hard to score against and one of the elements is certainly a settled, physical, tactically clever CB pairing – something we still do not have. So I'd much prefer that Klopp got the players with the qualities he wants rather than for him to change his approach to suit the imperfections of the players we currently have.

Yes.

 

[peekay]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here, mate. Your opinion seems to be that a top-class CB is a sort of luxury that a team like Bayern and Chelsea can afford and we can't; I think it's an absolute necessity for being truly competitive. If you don't have a settled, dominant CB partnership it's like a bathtub that's not been plugged at the bottom – no matter how much water you pour in it, it's going to drain and leak until you finally plug it. Look at Spurs – they are also not Chelsea or Bayern, but they managed to find a settled top-class CB pair in Vertonghen–Alderweireld (for very reasonable money too – and also a top-class GK in Lloris) and this gave them the foundation to challenge for the title despite a relatively thin squad and lack of winning experience in the team.

Also you blame our defensive issues on "tactics being used." I think it's quite clearly the opposite – we are being hurt time and time again by awful individual mistakes. Klopp is not Rodgers – he has proven that he knows how to set up a defense. His Dortmund team conceded 22 goals in their first Championship season – almost twice as little as Bayern (40). In the next season they conceded 25. He's certainly not a defensive coach like Mourinho and when the "gegenpressing" approach is not working for some reason it's true that his teams can be vulnerable – but when all elements come into place his teams are very hard to score against and one of the elements is certainly a settled, physical, tactically clever CB pairing – something we still do not have. So I'd much prefer that Klopp got the players with the qualities he wants rather than for him to change his approach to suit the imperfections of the players we currently have.

I am not saying top quality CB is a luxury. We have a number of holes to fix and we don't have City type budget. I just don't think he offers value for money at 50 million given what we need to improve. Spend that on a controlling midfielder and we would look a lot better. For 50 million, VDV better have a Sami Hyppia type impact on our defense. He will improve our defense but not to that extent.

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[choperman.v01]

So, maybe here's a test we could try:

When was the last time we went head-to-head against the richer clubs and came out winners for a quality senior player?

City obviously needs a proper centreback or two, and so does Man Utd, and maybe Arsenal too, if they don't trust Mustafi and tire of Koscielny's injuries. So if there are these needy clubs, and Southampton is ready to sell Van Dijk, does anyone see us winning a bidding war if these clubs are serious about taking him? And if there is indeed a bidding war, do we even want to waste our time?

Conversely, if we do look like winning a bidding war against these clubs with their deep pockets, or even worse, we don't have strong competition from the others (again, emphasis on these clubs also needing a CB or two), should we not pause and think, "What the fuck... do they know something we don't know?!".

I know this probably smacks of an inferiority or insecurity complex, but something about this just doesn't seem to fit right. I've probably made a mess of explaining my doubts, but fuck, I've tried anyway.

 

[darkstarexodus]

So, maybe here's a test we could try:

When was the last time we went head-to-head against the richer clubs and came out winners for a quality senior player?

City obviously needs a proper centreback or two, and so does Man Utd, and maybe Arsenal too, if they don't trust Mustafi and tire of Koscielny's injuries. So if there are these needy clubs, and Southampton is ready to sell Van Dijk, does anyone see us winning a bidding war if these clubs are serious about taking him? And if there is indeed a bidding war, do we even want to waste our time?

Conversely, if we do look like winning a bidding war against these clubs with their deep pockets, or even worse, we don't have strong competition from the others (again, emphasis on these clubs also needing a CB or two), should we not pause and think, "What the fuck... do they know something we don't know?!".

I know this probably smacks of an inferiority or insecurity complex, but something about this just doesn't seem to fit right. I've probably made a mess of explaining my doubts, but fuck, I've tried anyway.

I hear this argument loud and clear. Either we have no shot, or if we do it's a sign something is going horribly wrong.

Fuck I hate supporting this club sometimes.

 

[dmishra]

Southampton are looking at Toulouse CB Christopher Jullien as Van Dijk's replacement.

I know nothing about him, but we should probably sign him.

 

[Judge Jules]

We probably will anyway.