Cruyff slams 'dirty, ugly, vulgar' Dutch

[keniget]

They still try and do that in Holland, do they not? For a small country they still churn out a lot of talented players.

This basically brings us back to the point of them simply not having the players to beat Spain at their own game. Sneidjer is the only one from that central midfield that I'd pick out as being world class. De Jong is a workmanlike defensive midfielder, whilst Busquets is very comfortable in possession, there is no comparison between Alonso and Van Bommel obviously and the same goes for Iniesta vs VDV. The Dutch midfield was simply outmatched and this much was obviously to all.

"The Dutch coach defended his side, saying: "It was still our intention to play beautiful football, but we were facing a very good opponent.

"Spain are the best footballing country in the past few years, so we needed to have a top day to beat them.

"We did a good job tactically on them. We got into good positions at times. It's not our style, but you play a match to win."

That's fair enough in my opinion. They were too negative and too cynical but I don't agree with Cryuff that they needed to go out and play expansive football.

 

[Atlas]

[quote author=robinhood link=topic=40955.msg1134936#msg1134936 date=1278976724]
[quote author=Asim link=topic=40955.msg1134931#msg1134931 date=1278976294]

But are they as good as Iniesta/Xavi and Villa? that's the statement you made, and I would suggest it's been proven they are probably not. As individuals they may come close to being as good in terms of abilty and decision making etc but as part of a collective front five they are not as 'in-tune' with each other as the Spanish front 5.
Interesting 4 of that list pretty much flopped at Real Madrid
[/quote]

The first and primary statement I made was that those five players were easily good enough to play a top quality style of football.


What I said after that was just in support of it, and I accept there was an element of hyperbole, but I stand by the assertion that if you out those players at Barca everyone would rate them much better, because they'd be winning stuff regularly, and playing great football at the same time.
[/quote]

You compared them to Spain, which is what most of the people arguing against you seem to have an issue with. Saying as a 5 they are as good as the front 5 going forward for Spain.

As for putting them in the Barca team, well there is probably a reason they are not in the Barca team, its cos they are not as good as the current Barca players (most of who are in the Spain front 5). Like I said 4 of those players flopped at Real Madrid and didn't get many games there and Real were behind Barca at the time.

 

[keniget]

[quote author=robinhood link=topic=40955.msg1134942#msg1134942 date=1278977409]
But the level of technical ability amongst the Dutch is incredible. And that's training.
[/quote]

Huntelaar is widely thought to be useless outside the box. Kuyt is a worker. De Jong is a worker. Van Bommel is a worker. Robbens game is all about pace and running at defences. Only Van Persie, VDV and Sneijder are real 'technicians' (although their Spanish counterparts are better).

 

[robinhood]

I rate the Spanish very highly, but it's not like they were scoring eight goals a game and everything they were doing was coming off. They are getting it right, but there's certainly a misperception created about individuals when the team is working properly.

And of course the Dutch coach is defending his tactics.

 

[keniget]

The Spanish weren't at their best and they missed (a fit) Torres as the focal point of their attack. They too did what they had to at times to win - they may have stuck to their passing game, but it wasn't always pretty and they had a bit of luck along the way.

I'm not trying to go overboard with Spain in this tournament (although it might seem that way from some of my posts over the last few days), I just think you're very much hyping up a Holland side that is good, but not great. And pretty much every coach that has come up against Barca / Spain has adopted negative tactics.

On an aside, I still think we should sign Elia.

 

[robinhood]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=40955.msg1134946#msg1134946 date=1278977701]
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=40955.msg1134942#msg1134942 date=1278977409]
But the level of technical ability amongst the Dutch is incredible. And that's training.
[/quote]

Huntelaar is widely thought to be useless outside the box. Kuyt is a worker. De Jong is a worker. Van Bommel is a worker. Robbens game is all about pace and running at defences. Only Van Persie, VDV and Sneijder are real 'technicians' (although their Spanish counterparts are better).
[/quote]

Huntelaar lacks pace, so obviously that affects his outside the box (although he can score from outside the box), but I can't imagine calling a finisher of his calibre as anything other than "technically gifted".

I think it would be fair to compare VdV, Sneijder and Van Persie to Iniesta, Xavi and Pedro, and I would say that apart from Iniesta/VdV, the Spanish of those comparisons aren't a million miles ahead of their counterparts, although they obviously are putting it together much better on the pitch

 

[keniget]

It's Villa vs Van Persie and whilst I'm a huge fan of Van Persie, there is only one winner there and it's not close.

 

[Atlas]

Spain were up against teams parking the bus, the Portugese didn't even bother playing against them and Ronaldo didn't get into the game at all cos he didn't get the ball. Teams played against them hoping to hit them quickly on the counter and get a sucker-punch in.

I love watching the Spanish play, they kept the ball, they kept patient and passed it around, they didn't have to barge the door down, they were smart enough to wait and take their opportunity when it came to them, they were not 'amazing' but still good. Everything that England were unable to do.
To expect them to score 3-4 each game when playing world class teams and professionals is a bit much, as is expecting them to pull off everything they do..its a bit silly to suggest that really.

 

[robinhood]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=40955.msg1134948#msg1134948 date=1278978127]
I just think you're very much hyping up a Holland side that is good, but not great.
[/quote]

I'm trying to stick up for Cruyff, because I think I see his point of view

Anyway... better go to bed. I'll check back tomorrow

 

[LarryHagman]

That was the worst Dutch side I've ever seen (I think). The only way they were ever going to do anything worthwhile was bore their way through hoping that Robben and Sneijder would provide some quality, which they did. They have some other decent players but, those two aside, no real quality.
As for them being as good as Spain, who themselves haven't exactly been great, anyone who believes that is an imbecile. Huntelaar is crap, Van Persie does fuck all, Kuyt is Kuyt, VDV's career is a myth based on a computer game, they have two bouncers in centre midfield, that fast winger who came on looked as ineffective as Babel, Van Bronck was discarded by Arse in 1972, Oojer gets in the team.
Like France last time, absolute crap yet end up in the final.

 

[ankreds]

vdv is average and i think huntelaar is good nothing special.

 

[Avmenon]

I feel loathe defending Holland,as I'd detested seeing the Swiss play 'football' againsgt Spain (and winning).

And whilst the Dutch have good players, there's no way the five players Robin's mentioned wouldd have beaten the Spain 5 at their own game. Their tactics were right, and bar one moment by Iniesta, would taken them to penalties.

(I still think Spain would have won, but there's no question that the tactics worked)

 

[TheBunnyman]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=40955.msg1134948#msg1134948 date=1278978127]
The Spanish weren't at their best and they missed (a fit) Torres as the focal point of their attack. They too did what they had to at times to win - they may have stuck to their passing game, but it wasn't always pretty and they had a bit of luck along the way.

I'm not trying to go overboard with Spain in this tournament (although it might seem that way from some of my posts over the last few days), I just think you're very much hyping up a Holland side that is good, but not great. And pretty much every coach that has come up against Barca / Spain has adopted negative tactics.

On an aside, I still think we should sign Elia.
[/quote]

I can understand them playing defensive, counter-attacking football, particularly as it's what helped Inter to beat Barca earlier this season. But the violence and dirtiness of their tackling was beyond anything seen in a World Cup Final before, and was IMO a betrayal of Dutch footballing culture. I've got loads of Dutch friends, and many of them agree with me. (The few who don't are still sore at losing, but they'll come round when they've had time to calm down.) Their approach in that final was sheer brutality, and it reminded me more than anything of the Crazy Gang trying to bully Liverpool in the 85 Cup Final.

I am so, so glad that Spain beat them.

 

[keniget]

Agreed. They were far too cynical and it was awful to watch.

 

[Avmenon]

Yes, I'd have to agree with that as well.

 

[Buddha]

Anyone fancy Van Bommelcunt as a cheap replacement for Masher?

 

[TheBunnyman]

[quote author=Buddha link=topic=40955.msg1135094#msg1135094 date=1279017696]
Anyone fancy Van Bommelcunt as a cheap replacement for Masher?
[/quote]

What makes you think he'd be cheap?

 

[Buddha]

[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=40955.msg1135109#msg1135109 date=1279019725]
[quote author=Buddha link=topic=40955.msg1135094#msg1135094 date=1279017696]
Anyone fancy Van Bommelcunt as a cheap replacement for Masher?
[/quote]

What makes you think he'd be cheap?
[/quote]

Hasn't he got a year left on his contract or something? He'd likely jump at the chance of a move to England at this stage in his career.

Just for the record, I wouldn't want him unless he came cheap. I'd much prefer a younger player who can grow into the team.

 

[manwithnoname]

The tune would have been so, so different had Robben scored one of his chances

Spain weren't that good

 

[localny]

ah but on paper they were.....

joking aside, I feel the dutch could have matched them in a once off game played more openly...

this dutch team won all their WCQ matches, as well as in SA.... they surely could have come out stronger.

 

[Rouge Penguin]

The dutch beat the brazillians, was it the same tactics?

 

[LeTallecWiz]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=40955.msg1135120#msg1135120 date=1279020624]
The tune would have been so, so different had Robben scored one of his chances
[/quote]

Right, a 1-0 win would have made everyone think they didn't play dirty.

 

[manwithnoname]

It would have been hailed as a genius tactical masterclass.

How organisation and physicality can overcome 'beautiful' tippy-tappy bellend football

How the 'new' coaching style of whatsisface and Mourinho are 'redefining' football

How Barca/ Spain need to make changes because their vision of football is 'romantic' and not 'effective'

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Correct me if I'm wrong, no one really called Inter's win over Bayern 'dirty' ... Ugly is one thing, but Jet Li kicks to people's chest and non-stop hard fouls were not Inter's style.

 

[TheBunnyman]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=40955.msg1135144#msg1135144 date=1279022824]
It would have been hailed as a genius tactical masterclass.

How organisation and physicality can overcome 'beautiful' tippy-tappy bellend football

How the 'new' coaching style of whatsisface and Mourinho are 'redefining' football

How Barca/ Spain need to make changes because their vision of football is 'romantic' and not 'effective'
[/quote]

No it wouldn't. It would have been labelled as the death of beautiful football; Webb would have been banned from refereeing international matches; and Cruyff would have called it 'dirty, ugly and vulgar' and said he'd rather lose than win like that.

Wimbledon beat us in 85, I don't remember it being hailed as a tactical revolution.

 

[manwithnoname]

Everyone in the media was fucking overjoyed when Wimbledon beat us, there wasn't one dissenting voice - outside of The Echo - about how it was a triumph of brawn over quality

 

[localny]

That's something different though, that's because we were the kings, and we'd been beaten for once. Completely different narrative.

Look here's not what's being discussed - the Dutch lost because of bad defending. NOTHING else. Look at the it again, Van Der Vaart fails to clear across and the covering defender who should be marking Iniesta is strolling, yes STROLLING like Harry Kewell in Athens, when he should have been covering.

That's Not Webb's fault, that's not the Dutch coach's master tactics, or Spanish flair. It's not Blatter's fault...it's not down to De Jong and the Crazy gang....

the Dutch lost because they allowed a crack to open - and I can't get over the Dutch lad walking around...in a world cup final. Why is this not being discussed? (Bad link, but you see it..)

YouTube - Andres Iniesta Goal FINAL Fifa World Cup 2010 Spain vs. Netherlands (1-0).flv

 

[manwithnoname]

[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=40955.msg1135149#msg1135149 date=1279023486]
Correct me if I'm wrong, no one really called Inter's win over Bayern 'dirty' ... Ugly is one thing, but Jet Li kicks to people's chest and non-stop hard fouls were not Inter's style.
[/quote]

History is always written by the victors.

Occasionally the losers can have a say. But only if the victors OK it.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=40955.msg1135196#msg1135196 date=1279028012]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=40955.msg1135149#msg1135149 date=1279023486]
Correct me if I'm wrong, no one really called Inter's win over Bayern 'dirty' ... Ugly is one thing, but Jet Li kicks to people's chest and non-stop hard fouls were not Inter's style.
[/quote]

History is always written by the victors.

Occasionally the losers can have a say. But only if the victors OK it.
[/quote]

Which is why I nominate you to write a brief history of 6cm.

 

[jason]

[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=40955.msg1135176#msg1135176 date=1279026137]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=40955.msg1135144#msg1135144 date=1279022824]
It would have been hailed as a genius tactical masterclass.

How organisation and physicality can overcome 'beautiful' tippy-tappy bellend football

How the 'new' coaching style of whatsisface and Mourinho are 'redefining' football

How Barca/ Spain need to make changes because their vision of football is 'romantic' and not 'effective'
[/quote]

No it wouldn't. It would have been labelled as the death of beautiful football; Webb would have been banned from refereeing international matches; and Cruyff would have called it 'dirty, ugly and vulgar' and said he'd rather lose than win like that.

Wimbledon beat us in 85, I don't remember it being hailed as a tactical revolution.
[/quote]


I hope your right. I hope Mourinos style of play isnt the future its suffocating boring.

Chess should be played on a board.