Hardly surprising, coming from Barca's equivalent to our King Kenny, but I must admit I felt more or less the same watching Holland play like Wimbledon the other night...
Cruyff slams 'dirty, ugly, vulgar' Dutch
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This was mentioned in one of the other threads - he made similar comments in the build up and I just think he's going overboard.
The Dutch don't have the players to play total football quite in the way that he wants. They have some excellent individual players but far too many average ones. Their approach to the final against Spain was brutal but I think Marwijk's assessment of the game is fairer than Cryuff's.
The Dutch don't have the players to play total football quite in the way that he wants. They have some excellent individual players but far too many average ones. Their approach to the final against Spain was brutal but I think Marwijk's assessment of the game is fairer than Cryuff's.
Cruyff is a cunt.
mouthy bastard. for all of cruyff's 'total football' did his dutch team win the world cup? no.
[quote author=keniget link=topic=40955.msg1134885#msg1134885 date=1278967703]
This was mentioned in one of the other threads - he made similar comments in the build up and I just think he's going overboard.
The Dutch don't have the players to play total football quite in the way that he wants. They have some excellent individual players but far too many average ones. Their approach to the final against Spain was brutal but I think Marwijk's assessment of the game is fairer than Cryuff's.
[/quote]
I think as a Dutchman, a legend of the game, and a serious proponent of great football, he has the right to say what he likes. And on top of that I don't disagree with a word he says.
They played dirty. They didn't play for possession.
The Spanish players are that way through culture and practice*, there is enough natural ability with Sneijder, VdV, Robben, Van Persie, Huntelaar to play as good football as the Spanish.
*edit: not because they were only blessed with a good crop of players
This was mentioned in one of the other threads - he made similar comments in the build up and I just think he's going overboard.
The Dutch don't have the players to play total football quite in the way that he wants. They have some excellent individual players but far too many average ones. Their approach to the final against Spain was brutal but I think Marwijk's assessment of the game is fairer than Cryuff's.
[/quote]
I think as a Dutchman, a legend of the game, and a serious proponent of great football, he has the right to say what he likes. And on top of that I don't disagree with a word he says.
They played dirty. They didn't play for possession.
The Spanish players are that way through culture and practice*, there is enough natural ability with Sneijder, VdV, Robben, Van Persie, Huntelaar to play as good football as the Spanish.
*edit: not because they were only blessed with a good crop of players
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=40955.msg1134912#msg1134912 date=1278974121]
------------Huntelaar
Robben---------------Van Persie
---------Vdv---Sneijder
That front 5 is as good as any country, including Spain
[/quote]
whoa whoa whoa
where's kuyt??
------------Huntelaar
Robben---------------Van Persie
---------Vdv---Sneijder
That front 5 is as good as any country, including Spain
[/quote]
whoa whoa whoa
where's kuyt??
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=40955.msg1134912#msg1134912 date=1278974121]
------------Huntelaar
Robben---------------Van Persie
---------Vdv---Sneijder
That front 5 is as good as any country, including Spain
[/quote]
No it isn't.
------------Huntelaar
Robben---------------Van Persie
---------Vdv---Sneijder
That front 5 is as good as any country, including Spain
[/quote]
No it isn't.
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=40955.msg1134915#msg1134915 date=1278974435]
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=40955.msg1134912#msg1134912 date=1278974121]
------------Huntelaar
Robben---------------Van Persie
---------Vdv---Sneijder
That front 5 is as good as any country, including Spain
[/quote]
No it isn't.
[/quote]
Not in terms of what they've achieved, but in terms of natural ability, yes it is.
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=40955.msg1134912#msg1134912 date=1278974121]
------------Huntelaar
Robben---------------Van Persie
---------Vdv---Sneijder
That front 5 is as good as any country, including Spain
[/quote]
No it isn't.
[/quote]
Not in terms of what they've achieved, but in terms of natural ability, yes it is.
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=40955.msg1134915#msg1134915 date=1278974435]
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=40955.msg1134912#msg1134912 date=1278974121]
------------Huntelaar
Robben---------------Van Persie
---------Vdv---Sneijder
That front 5 is as good as any country, including Spain
[/quote]
No it isn't.
[/quote]
x 1 million.
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=40955.msg1134912#msg1134912 date=1278974121]
------------Huntelaar
Robben---------------Van Persie
---------Vdv---Sneijder
That front 5 is as good as any country, including Spain
[/quote]
No it isn't.
[/quote]
x 1 million.
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=40955.msg1134915#msg1134915 date=1278974435]
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=40955.msg1134912#msg1134912 date=1278974121]
------------Huntelaar
Robben---------------Van Persie
---------Vdv---Sneijder
That front 5 is as good as any country, including Spain
[/quote]
No it isn't.
[/quote]
Xabi, Xavi, Iniesta, Villa, (fit) Torres piss all over them 5 even though I love Wesley
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=40955.msg1134912#msg1134912 date=1278974121]
------------Huntelaar
Robben---------------Van Persie
---------Vdv---Sneijder
That front 5 is as good as any country, including Spain
[/quote]
No it isn't.
[/quote]
Xabi, Xavi, Iniesta, Villa, (fit) Torres piss all over them 5 even though I love Wesley
I'm amazed you think there's that much of a difference. It shows how much the luck of ending up at the right team and having a few more medals affects people's perception of a player.
Anyway, regardless of your skewed perception, you must be able to admit that it's a good enough front 5 to play quality football
Anyway, regardless of your skewed perception, you must be able to admit that it's a good enough front 5 to play quality football
Cruyff is a dick
It's nothing to do with luck or media perception. It's to do with years of watching football and judging players abilities.
The collective of Iniesta, Xavi, Villa et al is FAR superior to the Dutch equivalent you posted and it's been proven at every level of the game.
The collective of Iniesta, Xavi, Villa et al is FAR superior to the Dutch equivalent you posted and it's been proven at every level of the game.
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=40955.msg1134919#msg1134919 date=1278974806]
I'm amazed you think there's that much of a difference. It shows how much the luck of ending up at the right team and having a few more medals affects people's perception of a player.
Anyway, regardless of your skewed perception, you must be able to admit that it's a good enough front 5 to play quality football
[/quote]
VDV started the games but didn't play last few games and Huntellar didn't even start a game. Neither are as good as the others mentioned especially in the Spanish list.
I'm amazed you think there's that much of a difference. It shows how much the luck of ending up at the right team and having a few more medals affects people's perception of a player.
Anyway, regardless of your skewed perception, you must be able to admit that it's a good enough front 5 to play quality football
[/quote]
VDV started the games but didn't play last few games and Huntellar didn't even start a game. Neither are as good as the others mentioned especially in the Spanish list.
[quote author=keniget link=topic=40955.msg1134921#msg1134921 date=1278975060]
It's nothing to do with luck or media perception. It's to do with years of watching football and judging players abilities.
The collective of Iniesta, Xavi, Villa et al is FAR superior to the Dutch equivalent you posted and it's been proven at every level of the game.
[/quote]
You think that the ability of the players defines the way the team play the game; that the Spanish players must be much better because they play the way they do, I think that the way they are encouraged to play brings out the best in them.
If those Dutch players were at Barcelona, you'd rate them better than you do now.
PS I wasn't talking about "media perception", just how easy it is to imagine that because a player is part of a top class set up must mean that he's therefore miles ahead individually than a player that might not have been so fortunate so far in his career
It's nothing to do with luck or media perception. It's to do with years of watching football and judging players abilities.
The collective of Iniesta, Xavi, Villa et al is FAR superior to the Dutch equivalent you posted and it's been proven at every level of the game.
[/quote]
You think that the ability of the players defines the way the team play the game; that the Spanish players must be much better because they play the way they do, I think that the way they are encouraged to play brings out the best in them.
If those Dutch players were at Barcelona, you'd rate them better than you do now.
PS I wasn't talking about "media perception", just how easy it is to imagine that because a player is part of a top class set up must mean that he's therefore miles ahead individually than a player that might not have been so fortunate so far in his career
[quote author=Asim link=topic=40955.msg1134923#msg1134923 date=1278975496]
VDV started the games but didn't play last few games and Huntellar didn't even start a game. Neither are as good as the others mentioned especially in the Spanish list.
[/quote]
Those two are excellent examples of extremely gifted footballers who, in the right set up, would be rated far better than they are currently
VDV started the games but didn't play last few games and Huntellar didn't even start a game. Neither are as good as the others mentioned especially in the Spanish list.
[/quote]
Those two are excellent examples of extremely gifted footballers who, in the right set up, would be rated far better than they are currently
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=40955.msg1134924#msg1134924 date=1278975611]
PS I wasn't talking about "media perception", just how easy it is to imagine that because a player is part of a top class set up must mean that he's therefore miles ahead individually than a player that might not have been so fortunate so far in his career
[/quote]
Would therefore suggest we all think Lucas is great cos he is part of a top class set up at LFC and plays with the likes of Gerrard, Mascher and Torres.
PS I wasn't talking about "media perception", just how easy it is to imagine that because a player is part of a top class set up must mean that he's therefore miles ahead individually than a player that might not have been so fortunate so far in his career
[/quote]
Would therefore suggest we all think Lucas is great cos he is part of a top class set up at LFC and plays with the likes of Gerrard, Mascher and Torres.
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=40955.msg1134926#msg1134926 date=1278975895]
[quote author=Asim link=topic=40955.msg1134923#msg1134923 date=1278975496]
VDV started the games but didn't play last few games and Huntellar didn't even start a game. Neither are as good as the others mentioned especially in the Spanish list.
[/quote]
Those two are excellent examples of extremely gifted footballers who, in the right set up, would be rated far better than they are currently
[/quote]
But are they as good as Iniesta/Xavi and Villa? that's the statement you made, and I would suggest it's been proven they are probably not. As individuals they may come close to being as good in terms of abilty and decision making etc but as part of a collective front five they are not as 'in-tune' with each other as the Spanish front 5.
Interesting 4 of that list pretty much flopped at Real Madrid
[quote author=Asim link=topic=40955.msg1134923#msg1134923 date=1278975496]
VDV started the games but didn't play last few games and Huntellar didn't even start a game. Neither are as good as the others mentioned especially in the Spanish list.
[/quote]
Those two are excellent examples of extremely gifted footballers who, in the right set up, would be rated far better than they are currently
[/quote]
But are they as good as Iniesta/Xavi and Villa? that's the statement you made, and I would suggest it's been proven they are probably not. As individuals they may come close to being as good in terms of abilty and decision making etc but as part of a collective front five they are not as 'in-tune' with each other as the Spanish front 5.
Interesting 4 of that list pretty much flopped at Real Madrid
[quote author=Asim link=topic=40955.msg1134927#msg1134927 date=1278975922]
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=40955.msg1134924#msg1134924 date=1278975611]
PS I wasn't talking about "media perception", just how easy it is to imagine that because a player is part of a top class set up must mean that he's therefore miles ahead individually than a player that might not have been so fortunate so far in his career
[/quote]
Would therefore suggest we all think Lucas is great cos he is part of a top class set up at LFC and plays with the likes of Gerrard, Mascher and Torres.
[/quote]
Lucas was forced to try to replace Xabi, and that clearly was never going to work, as it takes a specific set of skills that not many players possess.
Besides he probably just isn't that good. Maybe Van der Vaart would have looked better
Also, if you think we were a top class outfit last season...
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=40955.msg1134924#msg1134924 date=1278975611]
PS I wasn't talking about "media perception", just how easy it is to imagine that because a player is part of a top class set up must mean that he's therefore miles ahead individually than a player that might not have been so fortunate so far in his career
[/quote]
Would therefore suggest we all think Lucas is great cos he is part of a top class set up at LFC and plays with the likes of Gerrard, Mascher and Torres.
[/quote]
Lucas was forced to try to replace Xabi, and that clearly was never going to work, as it takes a specific set of skills that not many players possess.
Besides he probably just isn't that good. Maybe Van der Vaart would have looked better
Also, if you think we were a top class outfit last season...
You talk about players being encouraged to play a certain way, well you can't just draw names on a chalkboard and expect a couple of years of friendlies to transform a side. It doesn't work like that.
What makes Spain or Barca so formidable in terms of the way they play and keep possession is that these players jave been "encouraged" to do so from a very early age. It's second nature to them. As good as some of those Dutch players are, you can't say the same.
So the Spanish players individual brilliance far exceeds the Dutch and so does their ability to play as a team. Everyone in football acknowledges that you can't going toe to toe with that Barca midfield.
Even Wenger didn't try it.
What makes Spain or Barca so formidable in terms of the way they play and keep possession is that these players jave been "encouraged" to do so from a very early age. It's second nature to them. As good as some of those Dutch players are, you can't say the same.
So the Spanish players individual brilliance far exceeds the Dutch and so does their ability to play as a team. Everyone in football acknowledges that you can't going toe to toe with that Barca midfield.
Even Wenger didn't try it.
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=40955.msg1134924#msg1134924 date=1278975611]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=40955.msg1134921#msg1134921 date=1278975060]
It's nothing to do with luck or media perception. It's to do with years of watching football and judging players abilities.
The collective of Iniesta, Xavi, Villa et al is FAR superior to the Dutch equivalent you posted and it's been proven at every level of the game.
[/quote]
You think that the ability of the players defines the way the team play the game; that the Spanish players must be much better because they play the way they do, I think that the way they are encouraged to play brings out the best in them.
[/quote]
I may be being presumptuous here, but I don't think that's what keni was saying at all. I think he was just pointing out that the Spanish players, on the whole, are better than their Dutch counterparts. Regardless of who their respective teams are.
[quote author=keniget link=topic=40955.msg1134921#msg1134921 date=1278975060]
It's nothing to do with luck or media perception. It's to do with years of watching football and judging players abilities.
The collective of Iniesta, Xavi, Villa et al is FAR superior to the Dutch equivalent you posted and it's been proven at every level of the game.
[/quote]
You think that the ability of the players defines the way the team play the game; that the Spanish players must be much better because they play the way they do, I think that the way they are encouraged to play brings out the best in them.
[/quote]
I may be being presumptuous here, but I don't think that's what keni was saying at all. I think he was just pointing out that the Spanish players, on the whole, are better than their Dutch counterparts. Regardless of who their respective teams are.
[quote author=keniget link=topic=40955.msg1134921#msg1134921 date=1278975060]
It's nothing to do with luck or media perception. It's to do with years of watching football and judging players abilities.
The collective of Iniesta, Xavi, Villa et al is FAR superior to the Dutch equivalent you posted and it's been proven at every level of the game.
[/quote]
This
It's nothing to do with luck or media perception. It's to do with years of watching football and judging players abilities.
The collective of Iniesta, Xavi, Villa et al is FAR superior to the Dutch equivalent you posted and it's been proven at every level of the game.
[/quote]
This
[quote author=Asim link=topic=40955.msg1134931#msg1134931 date=1278976294]
But are they as good as Iniesta/Xavi and Villa? that's the statement you made, and I would suggest it's been proven they are probably not. As individuals they may come close to being as good in terms of abilty and decision making etc but as part of a collective front five they are not as 'in-tune' with each other as the Spanish front 5.
Interesting 4 of that list pretty much flopped at Real Madrid
[/quote]
The first and primary statement I made was that those five players were easily good enough to play a top quality style of football.
What I said after that was just in support of it, and I accept there was an element of hyperbole, but I stand by the assertion that if you out those players at Barca everyone would rate them much better, because they'd be winning stuff regularly, and playing great football at the same time.
They are not so far away individually as is being made out.
I accept that as a 5 they aren't as "in tune" but this is what I'm talking about. It's a question of circumstances, not ability
But are they as good as Iniesta/Xavi and Villa? that's the statement you made, and I would suggest it's been proven they are probably not. As individuals they may come close to being as good in terms of abilty and decision making etc but as part of a collective front five they are not as 'in-tune' with each other as the Spanish front 5.
Interesting 4 of that list pretty much flopped at Real Madrid
[/quote]
The first and primary statement I made was that those five players were easily good enough to play a top quality style of football.
What I said after that was just in support of it, and I accept there was an element of hyperbole, but I stand by the assertion that if you out those players at Barca everyone would rate them much better, because they'd be winning stuff regularly, and playing great football at the same time.
They are not so far away individually as is being made out.
I accept that as a 5 they aren't as "in tune" but this is what I'm talking about. It's a question of circumstances, not ability
[quote author=keniget link=topic=40955.msg1134933#msg1134933 date=1278976441]
What makes Spain or Barca so formidable in terms of the way they play and keep possession is that these players jave been "encouraged" to do so from a very early age. It's second nature to them. As good as some of those Dutch players are, you can't say the same.
[/quote]
OK, so we're actually not that far apart in our point of view.
Let me come at this from another angle: Cruyff wants the Dutch footballing culture back; he can't understand why this has been lost.
Teach those kids to play like that from a young age, keep them together, playing that way, and you'd have an excellent side playing great football
What makes Spain or Barca so formidable in terms of the way they play and keep possession is that these players jave been "encouraged" to do so from a very early age. It's second nature to them. As good as some of those Dutch players are, you can't say the same.
[/quote]
OK, so we're actually not that far apart in our point of view.
Let me come at this from another angle: Cruyff wants the Dutch footballing culture back; he can't understand why this has been lost.
Teach those kids to play like that from a young age, keep them together, playing that way, and you'd have an excellent side playing great football
You seem very quick to dismiss the obvious correlation between a player's ability, and the team they play for. If those players were at Barca instead of the Spanish ones, then quite simply, Barca wouldn't be as good.
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=40955.msg1134934#msg1134934 date=1278976572]
I may be being presumptuous here, but I don't think that's what keni was saying at all. I think he was just pointing out that the Spanish players, on the whole, are better than their Dutch counterparts. Regardless of who their respective teams are.
[/quote]
Better in what way? *genetically*?
I may be being presumptuous here, but I don't think that's what keni was saying at all. I think he was just pointing out that the Spanish players, on the whole, are better than their Dutch counterparts. Regardless of who their respective teams are.
[/quote]
Better in what way? *genetically*?
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=40955.msg1134940#msg1134940 date=1278977102]
You seem very quick to dismiss the obvious correlation between a player's ability, and the team they play for. If those players were at Barca instead of the Spanish ones, then quite simply, Barca wouldn't be as good.
[/quote]
Not the way they played with Holland, no. But the level of technical ability amongst the Dutch is incredible. And that's training.
Just like Xavi, Iniesta, Pedro et al play the way they do because of training.
You seem very quick to dismiss the obvious correlation between a player's ability, and the team they play for. If those players were at Barca instead of the Spanish ones, then quite simply, Barca wouldn't be as good.
[/quote]
Not the way they played with Holland, no. But the level of technical ability amongst the Dutch is incredible. And that's training.
Just like Xavi, Iniesta, Pedro et al play the way they do because of training.
van Persie is hugely over rated. He's like a Dutch Kerry Dixon.
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