Collective Fatigue

[keniget]

We are not very good at unearthing talents. TBH, it's something we should be investing in more heavily in.

I don't think it's a case of unearthing talents - everyone knows who these guys are these days.

It's being more willing to take the risk and / or having the right people in place to mitigate the risk like errr... analysts and technical backroom staff.

City bought Alvarez for 20 odd million, which is fuck all for the player they got. Now they've bought Peronne who by all accounts if a talent (hopefully not). Benfica bought Enzo for what? 12M and he's stepped up instantly.

With FSG we were sold on the idea that we could be smarter rather than richer... now we're still "poor" but dumber as well.

 

[peekay]

Because he was about 14 years old at the time?

Every team finds gems now and again - it comes with the professional territory of being a PL club. You can't hold them up as a beacon of what we are missing out on. We've had more than our fair share.

Also, we don't have the full picture of Brighton's transfers. They probably take a punt on several Caciedo's. We look at the successes and think why we can't be like them. They probably commit all or a majority of their transfer pot to identify gems in the 4 to 6 million range in which the success rate is probably low. For every Caciedo, I am sure there are many plying their trade in the Belgian league who are not that successful. They are also able to provide the space and time for these players to adjust and develop away from the glare.

Credit to Brighton for identifying a formula that works for them. But I don't think their strategy can directly transfer to us.

 

[Fabio]

Also, we don't have the full picture of Brighton's transfers. They probably take a punt on several Caciedo's. We look at the successes and think why we can't be like them. They probably commit all or a majority of their transfer pot to identify gems in the 4 to 6 million range in which the success rate is probably low. For every Caciedo, I am sure there are many plying their trade in the Belgian league who are not that successful. They are also able to provide the space and time for these players to adjust and develop away from the glare.

Credit to Brighton for identifying a formula that works for them. But I don't think their strategy can directly transfer to us.

TBF it worked wonders for chelsea for years and keeping them compliant with FFP. Incremental gains on each of their transfers

 

[peekay]

I don't think it's a case of unearthing talents - everyone knows who these guys are these days.

It's being more willing to take the risk and / or having the right people in place to mitigate the risk like errr... analysts and technical backroom staff.

City bought Alvarez for 20 odd million, which is fuck all for the player they got. Now they've bought Peronne who by all accounts if a talent (hopefully not). Benfica bought Enzo for what? 12M and he's stepped up instantly.

With FSG we were sold on the idea that we could be smarter rather than richer... now we're still "poor" but dumber as well.

I am not too concerned about why we are not targeting youngish South American talent. City have the money to maintain a competitive squad and then take a punt on some of these signings. Yes, they struck gold with Alvarez, but if we focus our monies on such transfers, there is every chance that the player is not ready to deliver for one to three years and we cant afford that. City can.

With Benfica, same point as above. We only see their success. But they do hover up quite a bit of South American talent. There is safety in numbers aspect to their success in the South American market.

Our best has always been undervalued players in the 22-26 year old bracket with European and premier league experience who are ready to step up in 6-12 months' time.

 

[peekay]

TBF it worked wonders for chelsea for years and keeping them compliant with FFP. Incremental gains on each of their transfers

Chelsea spend a truckload of money on youth talent because it was a way for Abramovich to pour money into the club and keep them FFP compliant. They also pay their youth teams incredibly high wages. You think these talents sign for Chelsea because of their commitment to youth. This summer Chelsea signed a youth player from Aston Villa (they paid 20 million I think) and his wages on offer were rumored to be higher than 100K. There was also another big talent from Arsenal who signed for Chelsea. Again very high wages. We don't have the money to do what Chelsea does.

 

[Fabio]

Chelsea spend a truckload of money on youth talent because it was a way for Abramovich to pour money into the club and keep them FFP compliant. They also pay their youth teams incredibly high wages. You think these talents sign for Chelsea because of their commitment to youth. This summer Chelsea signed a youth player from Aston Villa (they paid 20 million I think) and his wages on offer were rumored to be higher than 100K. There was also another big talent from Arsenal who signed for Chelsea. Again very high wages. We don't have the money to do what Chelsea does.

That was this summer when they have a new owner who expressly told the government he bought the club from that he would invest 1.7bn in to the club. I'm fully expecting a few lean transfer years for chelsea. Previously they bought talents for fractional amounts and sold them on for huge profit. Or, as london is denser, they had the pick of a large talent pool. Guehi, 20m. Ake. 20m. Tomori, 20m . Abraham, 20m. And thats before we get to the weird selection of foreign youth players they sold for a decent amount.

The best we've done is Sterling, who we bought for a mil who everyone wanted from QPR.

 

[KopRed]

One thing I don't understand, is how Klopp seems genuinely puzzled about the state we are in. Right after the WC break he was saying we will see the real Liverpool, but we didn't.

He must have seen them in training, and noticed the massive dropoff in intensity. If he did, why did he try to play it down? Unless he was seeing something else in training which is even more puzzling. Similar to when he said we didn't need a new midfielder, but he must have seen the massive dropoff in energy and mobility in players like Hendo and Fab during training.

I still think this is down to the coaching staff. If fatigue is an issue, they should have spotted it in training or even some fitness tests and then try to address it by changing the tactics, even if they can't change the players. We shouldn't continue to play an expansive pressing style when the entire midfield is not up to it. Versus Brighton, we were not up to it in the first half, if it was due to "fatigue", change it. But we did nothing in the second.

It's all on the coaching staffs.

 

[MomoWASright]

I'd agree with most of that, except we are not the only ones.

As an example City have more than their fair share of 'elder statesmen' (I'll start at 29 because a lot on this forum seem to think that is the age of decrepitude, despite GKs, CBs and those that keep themselves uber-fit e.g. Milner or Salah clones, often lasting 5-7 years longer) in fact 7 of their 26 man squad are 29 or older and 13 are 27 or older : Ederson 29, Ortega 30, Walker 32, Carson 37, Gundogan 32, De Bruyne 31, Mahrez 31 and four more first teamers at 28 (Cancelo, Silva, Laporte, Stones) and a couple more at 27 (Grealish and Philipps). Almost a whole starting team in fact.

Obviously in a different ballpark, both financially and in output, but Nunez is our Haaland purchase. Bar Haaland and Philips they bought no-one of note last Summer and no-one this January (we have Gakpo).
In 21/22 they bought only Grealish and Alvarez. So have replaced Aguero, Sterling/Torres and Jesus in effect (only one of whom was 'past-it' so not due to age), and they've bought in some younger players (the most expensive being Akanji - our Konate, but we also brought in Carvalho & Ramsey) so they also have a large rebuild to undergo and are also maybe behind the curve on that one (though have a lot more money than we do - unless we get a sugar-daddy).
Note we had 5 very good transfers the season before in Jota, Thiago, Konate, Tsimikas and Diaz.

Maybe managers/medical team don't see 30 as the dropping off point any more with improvements across the board in training. medicine and monitoring.

Yet City seem flat this season. Why is that?

They are just behind us in the need of an overhaul.

 

[mom]

Yet City seem flat this season. Why is that?

They are just behind us in the need of an overhaul.

Yeh but they’ll actually get one

 

[rubans]

Why do we keep comparing us to Brighton?
If LFC had the same goals and ambitions as Brighton then this place would scream like nothing else.
Yes, a big sarcastic clap to Brighton Hove for having a stable club over the last 10yrs with a massive turn over of managers, players coming through and sold at huge profit but for winning absolutely fuck all in that time.
How many of those Brighton sold players have won anything since?
We don’t operate in the same way and let’s face it, we would never allow LFC the same patience Brighton have allowed.
Ofcourse, doesn’t mean we can’t learn from them but just saying it’s not the same.

 

[Gary25]

Yeah it's almost like we should've sufficiently freshened the squad in key areas but didn't

 

[peekay]

These are the Brighton transfers in 20/21 and 21/22

20/21 - Jakub Moder, Michal Karbownik, Moises Caicedo, Andi Zeqiri, Jan Paul van Hecke, Joel Veltman, Adam Lallana, Danny Welbeck, Robert Sanchez

21/22 - Enock Mwepi, Marc Cucurella, Kacper Kozlowski, Abdallah Sima, Deniz Undav, Kjell Scherpen, Kaoru Mitoma, Jeremy Sarmienta, Haydon Roberts, Taylor Richards

They also have quite a number out on loan, not just youth prospects but players in their mid to late 20s. Obviously, there are some impressive pickups. But there is a safety in numbers approach also. We do not do so many transfers.

 

[Frogfish]

Why do we keep comparing us to Brighton?
If LFC had the same goals and ambitions as Brighton then this place would scream like nothing else.
Yes, a big sarcastic clap to Brighton Hove for having a stable club over the last 10yrs with a massive turn over of managers, players coming through and sold at huge profit but for winning absolutely fuck all in that time.
How many of those Brighton sold players have won anything since?
We don’t operate in the same way and let’s face it, we would never allow LFC the same patience Brighton have allowed.
Ofcourse, doesn’t mean we can’t learn from them but just saying it’s not the same.

Because they have/had a handful of quality players over the past 2-3 seasons and so they became the beacon of light for certain type of posters across forums, on how it 'should be done'. Cyclic, it was Leicester before that and will be someone else over the next couple of seasons.

 

[Hyena]

It's not just Brighton though, is it?

City, Newcastle, Utd, Arsenal, Leeds, Fulham, Brentford all seem to have had better scouting / football departments than us for the past 18 months. Granted, that's not a long time but if it isn't arrested soon we could be facing a serious decline, especially if there is no change in ownership, which would mean no sudden large injection of cash to revitalize the squad in the next 5 to 7 years.

 

[King Binny]

I think there may be some misunderstanding. It's not jumping on the bandwagon or blind admiration just because clubs like Brighton "happen to strike gold". The key is they have a clear plan/strategy (of course, nothing is fool proof or perfect).

Brighton sign quite a lot of players but it's not just a case of trying out their luck. They do so with the aim of supporting their sister club/making profit from sales/developing players for their own use. Similar to Watford-Udinese-Granada.

Mitoma, Moder, Caicedo, Kozlowski (now on loan at Vitesse Arnhem), Sima (now on loan at Angers), Adingra (now on loan at sister club) were all loaned out almost immediately after signing.

The big money signings like Webster, Maupay, Trossard, Mwepu, Cucurella, Estupinan managed to play key roles.

Leicester did well in the French market esp. with Steve Walsh - Mahrez, Kante, (Drogba and Essien when @ Chelsea). They continued with the approach after he left - Fofana, Ndidi, Tielemans, Soumare, Mendy, Faes.

 

[rubans]

I get that and that strategy has yielded some healthy player sales.
The players and managers they haved moved on for large sums have yet to achieve anything so not sure if copying their scouting is right for us unless we as fans are prepared to change our expectation on what we want. Same for Newcastle, Leicester etc. I just don’t see how comparing to teams like help when we clearly won’t accept the time required to develop some.
I doubt scouting is really the reason why we only signed one midfielder in 5yrs.

 

[moron]

It's not just Brighton though, is it?

City, Newcastle, Utd, Arsenal, Leeds, Fulham, Brentford all seem to have had better scouting / football departments than us for the past 18 months. Granted, that's not a long time but if it isn't arrested soon we could be facing a serious decline, especially if there is no change in ownership, which would mean no sudden large injection of cash to revitalize the squad in the next 5 to 7 years.

Look, right now the only fuck up we may have made without giving the player any time is Gakpo, but look at the others Diaz, Nunez, Konate, and Mini where the latter's goals got us to 2 cup finals last season before we sold him. So I think we are still up there with the best scouts, but we just have bot invested in our midfield and I think it's all to do with our obsession with Jude.

 

[Modo]

E

It's not just Brighton though, is it?

City, Newcastle, Utd, Arsenal, Leeds, Fulham, Brentford all seem to have had better scouting / football departments than us for the past 18 months. Granted, that's not a long time but if it isn't arrested soon we could be facing a serious decline, especially if there is no change in ownership, which would mean no sudden large injection of cash to revitalize the squad in the next 5 to 7 years.

Exactly, I just used Brighton as an example. I could just as well have mentioned Newcastle and Guimares

 

[binomial]

Our scouting network needs replacing, not 1 stand out young player under 21 since we've signed Coutinho.... 10 years ago.

Especially need some people who can find prospects in South America.

Arsenal signing Martinelli and Marquinhos.
Chelsea signing that Santos chap.
Forest signing Danilo
City signing Jesus Alvarez Luiz and now Perrone
Brighton signing Buonanotte Enciso
Newcastle signing Almiron

 

[Fabio]

Our scouting network needs replacing, not 1 stand out young player under 21 since we've signed Coutinho.... 10 years ago.

Especially need some people who can find prospects in South America.

Arsenal signing Martinelli and Marquinhos.
Chelsea signing that Santos chap.
Forest signing Danilo
City signing Jesus Alvarez Luiz and now Perrone
Brighton signing Buonanotte Enciso
Newcastle signing Almiron

It's like we signed Lucas and thought "well we'll never get another gem like that, onwards to portugal"

 

[binomial]

It's like we signed Lucas and thought "well we'll never get another gem like that, onwards to portugal"

Whatever it is, it's bizarre.

Someone needs to explain themselves right now.

 

[Modo]

Our scouting network needs replacing, not 1 stand out young player under 21 since we've signed Coutinho.... 10 years ago.

Especially need some people who can find prospects in South America.

Arsenal signing Martinelli and Marquinhos.
Chelsea signing that Santos chap.
Forest signing Danilo
City signing Jesus Alvarez Luiz and now Perrone
Brighton signing Buonanotte Enciso
Newcastle signing Almiron

Didn't we sign some Colombian left back and some Brazilian kid a few years ago that were useless.

 

[binomial]

Didn't we sign some Colombian left back and some Brazilian kid a few years ago that were useless.

No idea.

Unless I've seen them play for the club idgaf.

 

[Modo]

No idea.

Unless I've seen them play for the club idgaf.

Googled for you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_(footballer,_born_1997)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anderson_Arroyo

 

[peekay]

I think there may be some misunderstanding. It's not jumping on the bandwagon or blind admiration just because clubs like Brighton "happen to strike gold". The key is they have a clear plan/strategy (of course, nothing is fool proof or perfect).

Brighton sign quite a lot of players but it's not just a case of trying out their luck. They do so with the aim of supporting their sister club/making profit from sales/developing players for their own use. Similar to Watford-Udinese-Granada.

Mitoma, Moder, Caicedo, Kozlowski (now on loan at Vitesse Arnhem), Sima (now on loan at Angers), Adingra (now on loan at sister club) were all loaned out almost immediately after signing.

The big money signings like Webster, Maupay, Trossard, Mwepu, Cucurella, Estupinan managed to play key roles.

Leicester did well in the French market esp. with Steve Walsh - Mahrez, Kante, (Drogba and Essien when @ Chelsea). They continued with the approach after he left - Fofana, Ndidi, Tielemans, Soumare, Mendy, Faes.

As I said in a previous post, what Brighton is doing is impressive. I am also not saying Brighton is just hovering up players. There definitely is strategic scouting there. But at the same time, there is also safety in numbers aspect to their model, like in every model. The way they do business is very impressive but does not translate to how we do transfers.

There has been an undercurrent of "If Brighton can buy Caicedo, why can't we?" from certain posters in SCM. Well, there are reasons for it. We don't operate the same way as Brighton. Given our transfer budget is so limited, we don't have a right-back back up, we can't afford to spend 10 million plus on players who will deliver after 3 years.

I have been critical of the way we do transfers for quite some time. I have been pointing to the squad age profile graph you have been posting for the last three years. I love Thiago as a player, but to this day, I don't understand why we tore up the process, and the type of players we focused on - youngish, undervalued, European and PL experience, ready to explode within 6 months. We seem to have lost the ability to make out of the box signings like Robertson, and Gini and are now duking it out for obvious signings.

We don't need to look at Brighton. People are ready to pay homage to Newcastle because of one good signing and one good season. I like Bruno Guimares too, but let us get some perspective here. We had a brilliant model which worked for us. It delivered everything. Let us go back to that rather than pining for Newcastle or Brighton or Arsenal.

 

[refugee]

Googled for you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan

Googled for you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_(footballer,_born_1997)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anderson_Arroyo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anderson_Arroyo

I think Anderson Arroyo had work permit problems which will probably send Binomial off the edge.

 

[tomasjj]

Is the thread about the collective fatigue of FSG hindering them to put their hands in their pockets?

 

[binomial]

I think Anderson Arroyo had work permit problems which will probably send Binomial off the edge.

Can't fucking believe this.

 

[dogboy]

Our scouting network needs replacing, not 1 stand out young player under 21 since we've signed Coutinho.... 10 years ago.

Especially need some people who can find prospects in South America.

Arsenal signing Martinelli and Marquinhos.
Chelsea signing that Santos chap.
Forest signing Danilo
City signing Jesus Alvarez Luiz and now Perrone
Brighton signing Buonanotte Enciso
Newcastle signing Almiron

Apart from Martinelli, are any of those actually any good? Alvarez had a couple of decent world cup games. Almiron has had 10 good games in 5 years. I haven't seen any of the others kick a ball.

 

[binomial]

Apart from Martinelli, are any of those actually any good? Alvarez had a couple of decent world cup games. Almiron has had 10 good games in 5 years. I haven't seen any of the others kick a ball.

Whether they turn out to be greats, distinctly average or complete flops wasn't really where I was getting at.

Why aren't we actively scouting on that side of the world? The biggest talents usually lie there.....the 3 greatest ever to grace a football pitch have come from there.

Look at where all our U21 players are being signed from......the likes of Fulham Aberdeen and Celtic.