Collective Fatigue

[Frogfish]

Although I lot of blame has been placed (by many members of this forum - I'm also not averse to assigning a degree of blame) on the onset of decrepitude of certain players, I've always felt and have mentioned many times, that last season just killed us in terms of energy levels, align that with a short recovery Summer, the World Cup which may not have the beneficial effect hoped for and we can all see the accumulative effect.

New blood would have gone some way to alleviating the worst of the effect, it's likely that's true (depending on their own circumstances) but possibly not to the levels some here would anticipate.

------

John Aldridge:⁣
⁣
“This group of players put so much into last season. In fact, you can extend that to the past five years, where they have challenged right at the very top of English and European football.⁣
⁣
“They have given everything that you can possibly give, they must be shattered. But there comes a moment where you have to pick yourself up and go again.⁣
⁣
“We have lost our mojo and confidence, certain players are not performing anywhere close to how they can be, but bit by bit you have to try and get back on track; earn clean sheets, become hard to beat again.⁣
⁣
“Of the broader issues at Anfield right now, I'm not sure what exactly has hindered this same Liverpool side that came within a whisker of landing a clean sweep of trophies last season.⁣
⁣
“After the game [vs Chelsea] there was talk from Thiago Alcantara of a collective fatigue within the squad - something Klopp publicly admitted this month for the first time - and I completely understand that.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Most of us accept that, and understand that, but that means a serious finger should be pointed at the recruitment policy which didn't bring in a few more bodies to ensure we could at least compete at a higher level than we are currently this season.

 

[Frogfish]

Most of us accept that, and understand that, but that means a serious finger should be pointed at the recruitment policy which didn't bring in a few more bodies to ensure we could at least compete at a higher level than we are currently this season.

I agree. But I doubt many actually thought it would be as bad as it has been - and it's possible that it wasn't even forecastable. City are also struggling (albeit with a much larger, higher quality squad). Without Haaland they could even be in our position (still Top 4 but at Newcastle or United's level, so 5-10 points off their current total).

I also take with issue with your claim that 'most accept and understand that' ! Read through thread after thread and say that again 😉

 

[MomoWASright]

Klopp is partly responsible for this. At times his subs/line ups are baffling. What stuck with me from when we had the league in the bag, he kept the same side. That was a great opportunity to rest the side but he kept plugging away with the same players.

It’s also the lack of fresh faces, which is what I’ve been banging on about for too long. Ship out those of a certain age and/or standing in the club and replace.

We’ve made a rod for our own back with this one.

 

[King Binny]

It kinda creates a vicious cycle when we keep sticking to the "like a new signing" (after injured players finally recover) and "wait for the right player/signing" reasonings/excuses because we squeeze the players dry and/or get forced into making late signings.

Kabak loan was last min, as was the Arthur one. Our approach towards preparing for the absences of players due to AFCON was very passive too - it seemed like we were just hoping those squad players will pull us through + those players away will be back soon once their country gets eliminated. I remember the media painting the picture that no player would want to join and sit on the bench/wait for his chance cos the front trio was performing so well (as if there won't be dip in form, injuries and suspension etc.). Diaz might not have been signed in Jan if Spurs didn't make their move official.

Most players need bedding in period, esp. when they move to a new league. Also, Klopp's way of bringing in new players into the squad typically afforded them loads of them to settle in - however, in recent seasons, this approach of his had to change because we didn't build on a position of strength. Remember another reasoning given was how difficult it would have been to improve the team given how well they have done/were doing - highlighting all their achievements/near misses. Contractual situation, fatigue, motivational issues, rivals' progress etc. all seemingly ignored/taken lightly. I think some ppl at the top were too comfortable with riding our luck time and again (e.g. how we managed to qualify for CL eventually despite the CB crisis season, delaying bring in LB backup thanks to Milner's versatility ).



Dated 13 Jan 2023

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/spo.../liverpool-midfield-xabi-alonso-rule-25964154

[article]Teams in the Premier League have had an average of 68 per cent of their midfield minutes from players aged between 22 and 28 this season; a trio of substitute appearances from Naby Keita since the World Cup are all Liverpool have had from this age range this term.

Klopp’s current first-choice midfield three of Jordan Henderson, Fabinho and Thiago have an average age of 30.6 and as noted above, Liverpool lack midfielders in their prime. It all goes hand in hand.

Only Henderson of the four most used midfielders has seen a drop in his tackles per 90 rate on last season, and by just 0.04 at that. However, three of the quartet are blocking fewer passes per match and the same number (though different players) are intercepting them less often as well as making fewer recoveries.

Combining the figures for the quartet illustrates the issue. Tackles are up 1.3 per 90 minutes but there has been a decrease in pass blocks (by 0.9), interceptions (1.0) and ball recoveries (a very worrying 3.3).[/article]

 

[Modo]

How did Man C do the year after they won the domestic treble?
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{th=scope:row}Premier League{/th}
{td}2nd{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{th=scope:row}FA Cup{/th}
{td}Semi-finals{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{th=scope:row}EFL Cup{/th}
{td}Winners{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{th=scope:row}FA Community Shield{/th}
{td}Winners{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{th=scope:row}UEFA Champions League{/th}
{td}
Quarter-finals{/td}
{/tr}
{/tbody}
[/xtable]

Not too shabby.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

How did Man C do the year after they won the domestic treble?
[xtable=skin1]
{tbody}
{tr}
{th}Premier League{/th}
{td}2nd{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{th}FA Cup{/th}
{td}Semi-finals{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{th}EFL Cup{/th}
{td}Winners{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{th}FA Community Shield{/th}
{td}Winners{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{th}UEFA Champions League{/th}
{td}
Quarter-finals{/td}
{/tr}
{/tbody}
[/xtable]
Not too shabby.

Not taking away from them but ...
A) less tiring style of play
B) larger squad
C) no afcon
D) no world cup mid season...
E) a proper off season

 

[Fabio]

Not taking away from them but ...
A) less tiring style of play - which klopp could address with more effective rotation or squad depth
B) larger squad - is klopps choice
C) no afcon - an issue with the size of the squad, plus Diaz, Jota and firmino would have been fine.
D) no world cup mid season... If anything that's a boon for us, as most of our players didn't go or barely featured. Only VVD was a nailed on starter.
E) a proper off season - why didn't we get that?

Counterpoints

 

[binomial]

Other than a few kids and a few left wingers we've done nothing and continue to do nothing even at the most desperate of times.

Alisson Trent Matip/Gomez/Konate Virgil Robbo Fab Hendo Milner/Naby/Ox/Thiago Salah Nunez/Firmino Diaz/Jota/Gakpo

13 of the 19 there have been here 5+ years.

 

[Fabio]

It feels that sometimes there's a desire to overanalyze everything.

Yes, we're fatigued; but that's down to klopps style of management. He could have rotated more, rested key players, etc. He didn't want to, as that's not who he is. It's a blessing and a curse.

The issue this year, aside from fatigue, is that a good handful of players just look so fucking demoralised. Last year broke them mentally. To be so close to immortality and lose it in that manner? Sickening. Klopps job is to refire these lads like he did after we missed out on the league, and then went on to win it.

Is klopp mentally fatigued? Is he struggling to get the motivation back in the lads?

 

[Fabio]

Other than a few kids and a few left wingers we've done nothing and continue to do nothing even at the most desperate of times.

Alisson Trent Matip/Gomez/Konate Virgil Robbo Fab Hendo Milner/Naby/Ox/Thiago Salah Nunez/Firmino Diaz/Jota/Gakpo

13 of the 19 there have been here 5+ years.

 

[keniget]

It's just not an acceptable "excuse" if that's what is being offered up.

This is elite sport and you have to make the appropriate preparations to ensure you can compete.

You can't just write off entire seasons. This is the second time it's happened now.

 

[Hansern]

How did Man C do the year after they won the domestic treble?
[xtable=skin1]
{tbody}
{tr}
{th}Premier League{/th}
{td}2nd{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{th}FA Cup{/th}
{td}Semi-finals{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{th}EFL Cup{/th}
{td}Winners{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{th}FA Community Shield{/th}
{td}Winners{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{th}UEFA Champions League{/th}
{td}
Quarter-finals{/td}
{/tr}
{/tbody}
[/xtable]
Not too shabby.

City have the biggest squad in the World and can buy anyone they want. They cant be compared to anyone.

 

[binomial]

View attachment 2501

Or.

We're all out of ideas, having tried nothing.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Counterpoints

1) Not sure our squad depth - with injuries - can really allow good rotation ... I'd say change in formation - but that seems hallal to say.
2) I don't think - in light of how we invest - you can really blame KLopp for squad size.
3) afcon was last year - it added even more games to players for that month ... also, it's rather evident, Salah hasn't recovered from it yet either.
4) It meant a more intense few months before the WC break ... and it meant a ...
5) a shorter offseason as the season started earlier.

 

[Frogfish]

It's just not an acceptable "excuse" if that's what is being offered up.

This is elite sport and you have to make the appropriate preparations to ensure you can compete.

You can't just write off entire seasons. This is the second time it's happened now.

I believe it IS an acceptable excuse for HOW the players are performing. This is quite distinct from transfer policy and squad overhaul. The question is : are half the team suddenly 'over-the-hill' as some posters would have us believe, or will they bounce back next season? I haven't the faintest but it is possible some being written off now will appear rejuvenated next season after a proper break in the Summer and a proper pre-season.

Again this is a quite distinct subject from squad overhaul. I should have made that clear in the OP.

 

[Beamrider]

We had a long, hard season last year, a short summer break and then a short pre-season in which we fucked off to Thailand and Singapore to play exhibition games against Premiership teams. I can’t understand why we looked knackered from the first game at Fulham and got off to such a poor start this year, our preparation was perfect.

 

[Dreambeliever]

It's just not an acceptable "excuse" if that's what is being offered up.

This is elite sport and you have to make the appropriate preparations to ensure you can compete.

You can't just write off entire seasons. This is the second time it's happened now.

Chelsea did it for 6 years in a row

 

[mark1975]

I agree with the fatigue thing. The thing is, fatigue has coincided with natural decline. You can't just pin all of that on how much we've put into the last few seasons, it's a natural thing anyway. Football is cyclic, styles come and go and it effects form. You do have to pick yourself up and go again, but sometimes you have to reinvent yourselves too.

Pep has brought in Haaland, changed style as a result, got the best from Haaland but not necessarily the best from those around him, but you can wager that next season they will be settled in the slight change and will go again. They'll adapt. So ok, they've got the resources to do that, but it's still a brave thing to tackle head on, you can stick to your guns and go down the same route over and over again, that's admirable too, but sometimes you have to think outside the box a bit and give the opposition something else to think about. That's where we repeatedly fall short. It's one of the only genuine criticisms of Klopp, but it's a valid one that's never set the alarm bells ringing quite as strongly as they are now.

If we're building from scratch again, getting back to basics, starting with defense and building our way back up, then we might as well face those changes and try to rebuild a team again that will play to it's strengths, instead of having an ideal and a blueprint that the current crop look disjointed in.

 

[keniget]

I believe it IS an acceptable excuse for HOW the players are performing. This is quite distinct from transfer policy and squad overhaul. The question is : are half the team suddenly 'over-the-hill' as some posters would have us believe, or will they bounce back next season? I haven't the faintest but it is possible some being written off now will appear rejuvenated next season after a proper break in the Summer and a proper pre-season.

Again this is a quite distinct subject from squad overhaul. I should have made that clear in the OP.

Fair enough but in a way it's kinda hard to decouple the two.

If we belive the squad needs an overhaul and has been mismanaged - which I think we all do (?) - then it must mean that our squad has enough players that are past their best or just shit.

So hoping that it all magically changes next season seems like wishful thinking.

 

[Modo]

Counterpoints

Thanks saved me some time

 

[Modo]

City have the biggest squad in the World and can buy anyone they want. They cant be compared to anyone.

We have a big squad too, but it's littered with underachievers and sick notes. That's on us.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Thanks saved me some time

I responded already, so start using the time

 

[Hansern]

We have a big squad too, but it's littered with underachievers and sick notes. That's on us.

Still not comparable to City

 

[mark1975]

We have a big squad too, but it's littered with underachievers and sick notes. That's on us.

It's not just on us is it? One of the downsides of how we operate is having to take gambles. We gambled on players with questionable injury records, because of their otherwise sound pedigree and the financial impact their injury history had on their transfer fee. That's where we've "had" to cut corners, and where City don't have to.

We've also had to punt on players like Elliott and Carvalho, while City have been able to buy youngsters who cost tens of millions more.

It's a bit more complex than "it's on us". Some of it is, some of it goes with the territory.

 

[Modo]

It's not just on us is it? One of the downsides of how we operate is having to take gambles. We gambled on players with questionable injury records, because of their otherwise sound pedigree and the financial impact their injury history had on their transfer fee. That's where we've "had" to cut corners, and where City don't have to.

We've also had to punt on players like Elliott and Carvalho, while City have been able to buy youngsters who cost tens of millions more.

It's a bit more complex than "it's on us". Some of it is, some of it goes with the territory.

I get what you're saying but why didn't we for instance buy Caicedo instead of Ox?
It's not like we bought superstars as backups.
Other teams have found gems who are a lot cheaper than our overpaid shower of shite.

 

[Modo]

I responded already, so start using the time

Fucking hell

 

[Frogfish]

I agree with the fatigue thing. The thing is, fatigue has coincided with natural decline. You can't just pin all of that on how much we've put into the last few seasons, it's a natural thing anyway. Football is cyclic, styles come and go and it effects form. You do have to pick yourself up and go again, but sometimes you have to reinvent yourselves too.

Pep has brought in Haaland, changed style as a result, got the best from Haaland but not necessarily the best from those around him, but you can wager that next season they will be settled in the slight change and will go again. They'll adapt. So ok, they've got the resources to do that, but it's still a brave thing to tackle head on, you can stick to your guns and go down the same route over and over again, that's admirable too, but sometimes you have to think outside the box a bit and give the opposition something else to think about. That's where we repeatedly fall short. It's one of the only genuine criticisms of Klopp, but it's a valid one that's never set the alarm bells ringing quite as strongly as they are now.

If we're building from scratch again, getting back to basics, starting with defense and building our way back up, then we might as well face those changes and try to rebuild a team again that will play to it's strengths, instead of having an ideal and a blueprint that the current crop look disjointed in.

I'd agree with most of that, except we are not the only ones.

As an example City have more than their fair share of 'elder statesmen' (I'll start at 29 because a lot on this forum seem to think that is the age of decrepitude, despite GKs, CBs and those that keep themselves uber-fit e.g. Milner or Salah clones, often lasting 5-7 years longer) in fact 7 of their 26 man squad are 29 or older and 13 are 27 or older : Ederson 29, Ortega 30, Walker 32, Carson 37, Gundogan 32, De Bruyne 31, Mahrez 31 and four more first teamers at 28 (Cancelo, Silva, Laporte, Stones) and a couple more at 27 (Grealish and Philipps). Almost a whole starting team in fact.

Obviously in a different ballpark, both financially and in output, but Nunez is our Haaland purchase. Bar Haaland and Philips they bought no-one of note last Summer and no-one this January (we have Gakpo).
In 21/22 they bought only Grealish and Alvarez. So have replaced Aguero, Sterling/Torres and Jesus in effect (only one of whom was 'past-it' so not due to age), and they've bought in some younger players (the most expensive being Akanji - our Konate, but we also brought in Carvalho & Ramsey) so they also have a large rebuild to undergo and are also maybe behind the curve on that one (though have a lot more money than we do - unless we get a sugar-daddy).
Note we had 5 very good transfers the season before in Jota, Thiago, Konate, Tsimikas and Diaz.

Maybe managers/medical team don't see 30 as the dropping off point any more with improvements across the board in training. medicine and monitoring.

 

[Frogfish]

I get what you're saying but why didn't we for instance buy Caicedo instead of Ox?
It's not like we bought superstars as backups.
Other teams have found gems who are a lot cheaper than our overpaid shower of shite.

Because he was about 14 years old at the time?

Every team finds gems now and again - it comes with the professional territory of being a PL club. You can't hold them up as a beacon of what we are missing out on. We've had more than our fair share.

 

[Fabio]

We are not very good at unearthing talents. TBH, it's something we should be investing in more heavily in.