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Centre-back pairing versus Chelsea

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[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=36206.msg955241#msg955241 date=1254391379]
I'm the only one so far who's voted for Carra and Zorba. It would be a risk, but the Fiorentina game just convinced me that Carra and Skrtel is not working at all. Chelsea will have watched that game (and our other matches) and will have figured out ways to exploit our weaknesses. So a change of personnel would be one way of forestalling their tactical preparations.

The other reason I'd favour Zorba over Skrtel is that he's better in the air - and I think Chelsea are going to bombard us. They're always very dangerous at corners and free-kicks, and our vulnerability there is scarily obvious.

Clearly, Rafa will know more than us if this is a viable option because he'll have watched Zorba in training every day. And maybe, when it comes down to it, he's just not good enough. The other downside to this decision would be the psychological effects on Skrtel of being dropped. Then again, if he gets mauled by Drogba and Anelka, he'll be mentally scarred anyway.

Hopefully Mascher will be fit, and can offer some protection to whoever gets picked, but at the moment the 'devil we know' does not inspire me with any confidence at all.

[/quote]
Carra and Kyrgiakos would probably make more sense than Carra and Skrtl at this point in time.

Skrtl's gone from bad to worse of late and he's getting far to rash in his challenges and overall approach for my liking. The Greek would give us an edge in the air, I remember him as downright immense when playing for Rangers in that department, and although not fast he's probably better at positioning himself as well compared to Skrtl - who's also running extremely low on self-confidence it seems.

Agger got some good reviews after his outing yesterday but it's probably a wee bit early to throw him back in as has already been said. Can't wait to have him back in the side though, sooner rather than later.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36206.msg955244#msg955244 date=1254391540]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=36206.msg955225#msg955225 date=1254390482]
[quote author=Mors link=topic=36206.msg955222#msg955222 date=1254390275]
I think that our current back four are 'capable' of shutting out Chelski, so it's not undoable. And Agger isn't the saviour if they can't, he's no guarantee that we wont conceed if he does play. I've seen Drogba have him over a barrell before.

Rafa will just have to work on them this week and get it sorted out, and play masher to guard them.

And with Torres, Gerrard and Kuyt we're always likely to sneak one.
[/quote]

our defense was the main reason we went out against chelsea last year. attack wise I though we were brilliant, but it was like everytime chelsea came forwards they scored.

[/quote]

You keep saying this over and over. In the following match we played Arsenal, Agger started and Skrtel dropped to the bench and hey ho, we conceded four.
[/quote]

I was blaming the unit rather than any individual.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=36206.msg955256#msg955256 date=1254392245]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36206.msg955244#msg955244 date=1254391540]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=36206.msg955225#msg955225 date=1254390482]
[quote author=Mors link=topic=36206.msg955222#msg955222 date=1254390275]
I think that our current back four are 'capable' of shutting out Chelski, so it's not undoable. And Agger isn't the saviour if they can't, he's no guarantee that we wont conceed if he does play. I've seen Drogba have him over a barrell before.

Rafa will just have to work on them this week and get it sorted out, and play masher to guard them.

And with Torres, Gerrard and Kuyt we're always likely to sneak one.
[/quote]

our defense was the main reason we went out against chelsea last year. attack wise I though we were brilliant, but it was like everytime chelsea came forwards they scored.

[/quote]

You keep saying this over and over. In the following match we played Arsenal, Agger started and Skrtel dropped to the bench and hey ho, we conceded four.
[/quote]

I was blaming the unit rather than any individual.
[/quote]

Ok well fair enough, so you agree that it's a problem with our setup rather than individuals?

Skrtel and Carra have been below par, there's no denying that, but I said at the start of the season that I had reservations because we seem to take months to get fully to grips with our defensive system. People can say what they like about how brilliantly it works once it kicks in, but the problem is we start most seasons conceding goals, quite heavily too, we did it last year but got away with it a bit more.

It needs addressing, seriously.
 
For me it has to be Carra and Skrtel. Agger is probably not fit, Zorba is still a relative unknown, where as Carra and Skrtel have both performed well against Drogba before. They may not be having the best run of form recently, but I''m sure they'll lift their game for this one.
If Mascher and Reira are fit and playing, they'll give a big boost to our defence too, as has been mentioned elsewhere.

I don't think this is the game to be taking a risk on an unfit or unproven player.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36206.msg955249#msg955249 date=1254391852]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=36206.msg955241#msg955241 date=1254391379]
I'm the only one so far who's voted for Carra and Zorba. It would be a risk, but the Fiorentina game just convinced me that Carra and Skrtel is not working at all. Chelsea will have watched that game (and our other matches) and will have figured out ways to exploit our weaknesses. So a change of personnel would be one way of forestalling their tactical preparations.

The other reason I'd favour Zorba over Skrtel is that he's better in the air - and I think Chelsea are going to bombard us. They're always very dangerous at corners and free-kicks, and our vulnerability there is scarily obvious.

Clearly, Rafa will know more than us if this is a viable option because he'll have watched Zorba in training every day. And maybe, when it comes down to it, he's just not good enough. The other downside to this decision would be the psychological effects on Skrtel of being dropped. Then again, if he gets mauled by Drogba and Anelka, he'll be mentally scarred anyway.

Hopefully Mascher will be fit, and can offer some protection to whoever gets picked, but at the moment the 'devil we know' does not inspire me with any confidence at all.

[/quote]

Carra's experienced, proven as one of the best centre backs in Europe, etc.. but you're only as good as your current form. Both he and Skrtel have been iffy this season so I don't get why it's an automatic decision that Skrtel should make way.

Look at the trip to Old Trafford last season. Arbeloa gets injured in the warm up and Hyypia steps in, Carra goes to right back and Skrtel and Hyypia partner each other in the centre and we play a blinder.

I'm not saying it always works out that favourably, but making Skrtel the target of our defensive woes seems well wide of the mark. Carra has looked even more indecisive during setpieces and has been caught under the ball several times, and lets not forget, he's also been given the run around in the past by Drogba too. And as I've said earlier, our fullbacks aren't helping, one of them needs to tuck inside and hold their position when we're under attack.
[/quote]
You're going a long way to defend Skrtl mate, and I think that's admirable.

For me Carra and Skrtl has looked equally bad of late but to leave Carra out and play e.g. Skrtl and Kyrgiakos against Chelski come Sunday would be unbearable to watch. They'd be all over the place I'm affraid.

You point with regards to our attacking full-back taking part of the blame is a valid one, and we are probably still trying to find a balance, but as we've conceeded 8 goals out of 9 from set-pieces I don't think it's telling the whole story.

I like Skrtl, but he's not playing well at the moment and probably should be rested.
 
I'm not saying either should make way, because the alternatives aren't viable for such a big game. If we'd had the opportunity to try whichever partnership against Hull or Fiorentina then it would have been a different story, but we have a player returning from a lengthy injury and an inexperienced player as alternatives.

I'm not 'defending' Skrtel's form, I said as much in my post, I just don't see why he's being made the scapegoat, individually and collectively we've been poor defensively, is anyone gonna argue that?
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36206.msg955262#msg955262 date=1254392870]
I'm not saying either should make way, because the alternatives aren't viable for such a big game. If we'd had the opportunity to try whichever partnership against Hull or Fiorentina then it would have been a different story, but we have a player returning from a lengthy injury and an inexperienced player as alternatives.

I'm not 'defending' Skrtel's form, I said as much in my post, I just don't see why he's being made the scapegoat, individually and collectively we've been poor defensively, is anyone gonna argue that?
[/quote]
Well, I'm not.

But I will blame individuals in our defense, and as we've conceeded almost all of our goals on set-pieces it must come down to our centre-pairing more so than our wingbacks who aren't exactly to be trusted in the air.

Carra is undroppable as far as I'm concerned so Skrtl's the one making way - if anyone is. It's evident that if Skrtl had been playing particulary well and Carra had been mostly shite I'd be of a different opinion but that's not exactly the case. They've both been poor and personally I wouldn't mind a change soon.

But as been said maybe the Chelski-game isn't the right time to tinker with.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36206.msg955257#msg955257 date=1254392429]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=36206.msg955256#msg955256 date=1254392245]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36206.msg955244#msg955244 date=1254391540]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=36206.msg955225#msg955225 date=1254390482]
[quote author=Mors link=topic=36206.msg955222#msg955222 date=1254390275]
I think that our current back four are 'capable' of shutting out Chelski, so it's not undoable. And Agger isn't the saviour if they can't, he's no guarantee that we wont conceed if he does play. I've seen Drogba have him over a barrell before.

Rafa will just have to work on them this week and get it sorted out, and play masher to guard them.

And with Torres, Gerrard and Kuyt we're always likely to sneak one.
[/quote]

our defense was the main reason we went out against chelsea last year. attack wise I though we were brilliant, but it was like everytime chelsea came forwards they scored.

[/quote]

You keep saying this over and over. In the following match we played Arsenal, Agger started and Skrtel dropped to the bench and hey ho, we conceded four.
[/quote]

I was blaming the unit rather than any individual.
[/quote]

Ok well fair enough, so you agree that it's a problem with our setup rather than individuals?

Skrtel and Carra have been below par, there's no denying that, but I said at the start of the season that I had reservations because we seem to take months to get fully to grips with our defensive system. People can say what they like about how brilliantly it works once it kicks in, but the problem is we start most seasons conceding goals, quite heavily too, we did it last year but got away with it a bit more.

It needs addressing, seriously.
[/quote]

I want agger in because I think he is better than skrtel but I do think our defending is currently flawed, especially the way we defend set pieces. I'm hopefully this will automatically improve by virtue of agger being the best header of the ball at the club (yes I think he is better in the air than carra).
 
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=36206.msg955265#msg955265 date=1254393445]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36206.msg955262#msg955262 date=1254392870]
I'm not saying either should make way, because the alternatives aren't viable for such a big game. If we'd had the opportunity to try whichever partnership against Hull or Fiorentina then it would have been a different story, but we have a player returning from a lengthy injury and an inexperienced player as alternatives.

I'm not 'defending' Skrtel's form, I said as much in my post, I just don't see why he's being made the scapegoat, individually and collectively we've been poor defensively, is anyone gonna argue that?
[/quote]
Well, I'm not.

But I will blame individuals in our defense, and as we've conceeded almost all of our goals on set-pieces it must come down to our centre-pairing more so than our wingbacks who aren't exactly to be trusted in the air.

Carra is undroppable as far as I'm concerned so Skrtl's the one making way - if anyone is. It's evident that if Skrtl had been playing particulary well and Carra had been mostly shite I'd be of a different opinion but that's not exactly the case. They've both been poor and personally I wouldn't mind a change soon.

But as been said maybe the Chelski-game isn't the right time to tinker with.
[/quote]

They've both been caught under the ball at setpieces, often going for the same player while their team mates have stood there static. How is that anymore Skrtel's fault than Carra's? So Carra gets a reprieve for being more experienced, despite looking equally culpable for our errors?

The fullbacks are offering little or no protection in comparison to recent years, while Masher hasn't figured much, so we're not getting the same protection from midfield. They're all accountable, but hey, if this all goes someway to getting Agger back in, it'll all be worth it, right? 😉
 
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=36206.msg955265#msg955265 date=1254393445]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36206.msg955262#msg955262 date=1254392870]
I'm not saying either should make way, because the alternatives aren't viable for such a big game. If we'd had the opportunity to try whichever partnership against Hull or Fiorentina then it would have been a different story, but we have a player returning from a lengthy injury and an inexperienced player as alternatives.

I'm not 'defending' Skrtel's form, I said as much in my post, I just don't see why he's being made the scapegoat, individually and collectively we've been poor defensively, is anyone gonna argue that?
[/quote]

as we've conceeded almost all of our goals on set-pieces it must come down to our centre-pairing


[/quote]

That literally makes no sense - goals conceded from set-pieces using zonal marking means that the CBs are the most liable?

Both Carra and Skittles have at best been mediocre this season, and in open play have been fallible (perhaps due to attacking nature of the full backs, but most importantly because they are not playing as a partnership) - but the whole point of zonal marking is that the whole team operates as a choesive defensive unit; and it simply isnt happening.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36206.msg955267#msg955267 date=1254393742]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=36206.msg955265#msg955265 date=1254393445]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36206.msg955262#msg955262 date=1254392870]
I'm not saying either should make way, because the alternatives aren't viable for such a big game. If we'd had the opportunity to try whichever partnership against Hull or Fiorentina then it would have been a different story, but we have a player returning from a lengthy injury and an inexperienced player as alternatives.

I'm not 'defending' Skrtel's form, I said as much in my post, I just don't see why he's being made the scapegoat, individually and collectively we've been poor defensively, is anyone gonna argue that?
[/quote]
Well, I'm not.

But I will blame individuals in our defense, and as we've conceeded almost all of our goals on set-pieces it must come down to our centre-pairing more so than our wingbacks who aren't exactly to be trusted in the air.

Carra is undroppable as far as I'm concerned so Skrtl's the one making way - if anyone is. It's evident that if Skrtl had been playing particulary well and Carra had been mostly shite I'd be of a different opinion but that's not exactly the case. They've both been poor and personally I wouldn't mind a change soon.

But as been said maybe the Chelski-game isn't the right time to tinker with.
[/quote]

They've both been caught under the ball at setpieces, often going for the same player while their team mates have stood there static. How is that anymore Skrtel's fault than Carra's? So Carra gets a reprieve for being more experienced, despite looking equally culpable for our errors?

The fullbacks are offering little or no protection in comparison to recent years, while Masher hasn't figured much, so we're not getting the same protection from midfield. They're all accountable, but hey, if this all goes someway to getting Agger back in, it'll all be worth it, right? 😉

[/quote]

Theyve both been caught Mark, and both should bear personal responsibility for this, but others have also been culpable.

Im sure teams have now begun to deliberately attack the edges of where they believe one "zone" ends and another begins - testing our ability to pass off an attacking player between markers.
 
Yeah true, United and Chelsea often seem to expose it, we look really vulnerable when players attack the zones from the edge of the box. No one is picking up, I'm not trying to fight anyone's cause, as a unit it just isn't working.

I feel like I did under Uncle Roy, shit scared everytime the opposition get a setpiece, and for a team renowned for it's solidity, that really shouldn't be the case.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36206.msg955267#msg955267 date=1254393742]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=36206.msg955265#msg955265 date=1254393445]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36206.msg955262#msg955262 date=1254392870]
I'm not saying either should make way, because the alternatives aren't viable for such a big game. If we'd had the opportunity to try whichever partnership against Hull or Fiorentina then it would have been a different story, but we have a player returning from a lengthy injury and an inexperienced player as alternatives.

I'm not 'defending' Skrtel's form, I said as much in my post, I just don't see why he's being made the scapegoat, individually and collectively we've been poor defensively, is anyone gonna argue that?
[/quote]
Well, I'm not.

But I will blame individuals in our defense, and as we've conceeded almost all of our goals on set-pieces it must come down to our centre-pairing more so than our wingbacks who aren't exactly to be trusted in the air.

Carra is undroppable as far as I'm concerned so Skrtl's the one making way - if anyone is. It's evident that if Skrtl had been playing particulary well and Carra had been mostly shite I'd be of a different opinion but that's not exactly the case. They've both been poor and personally I wouldn't mind a change soon.

But as been said maybe the Chelski-game isn't the right time to tinker with.
[/quote]

They've both been caught under the ball at setpieces, often going for the same player while their team mates have stood there static. How is that anymore Skrtel's fault than Carra's? So Carra gets a reprieve for being more experienced, despite looking equally culpable for our errors?

The fullbacks are offering little or no protection in comparison to recent years, while Masher hasn't figured much, so we're not getting the same protection from midfield. They're all accountable, but hey, if this all goes someway to getting Agger back in, it'll all be worth it, right? 😉

[/quote]
It's not anymore Skrtl's fault than Carra's. I'm not trying to make one look worse than the other, they are both to blame. The main thing for me here, is that Carra has been a one of the most reliable centerbacks we've had in years and Skrtl is still learning his trade, and as they've both been poor one needs to be dropped soon.

And I would simply never drop Carra before Skrtl at this stage, and I must admit I don't believe you would either.

*Agger coming back is just a big fat bonus we all should appreciate 🙂
 
[quote author=grjt link=topic=36206.msg955268#msg955268 date=1254393884]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=36206.msg955265#msg955265 date=1254393445]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36206.msg955262#msg955262 date=1254392870]
I'm not saying either should make way, because the alternatives aren't viable for such a big game. If we'd had the opportunity to try whichever partnership against Hull or Fiorentina then it would have been a different story, but we have a player returning from a lengthy injury and an inexperienced player as alternatives.

I'm not 'defending' Skrtel's form, I said as much in my post, I just don't see why he's being made the scapegoat, individually and collectively we've been poor defensively, is anyone gonna argue that?
[/quote]

as we've conceeded almost all of our goals on set-pieces it must come down to our centre-pairing


[/quote]

That literally makes no sense - goals conceded from set-pieces using zonal marking means that the CBs are the most liable?

Both Carra and Skittles have at best been mediocre this season, and in open play have been fallible (perhaps due to attacking nature of the full backs, but most importantly because they are not playing as a partnership) - but the whole point of zonal marking is that the whole team operates as a choesive defensive unit; and it simply isnt happening.
[/quote]
You may have a point but still who do you reckon is our most important players when it comes to zonal-marking on set-pieces?

If it's not our central defenders I'd be amazed.
 
Of course I wouldn't, but lets face it, when yours and Neil's agenda's are to fight Aggers cause (and in Neil's case, automatically criticising Skrtel as a form of promoting the other), it's hard not to feel embittered by the reasoning behind it.

Personally I've got nothing against Agger coming in, even at the expense of Skrtel, something needs changing, but they're a bank of four and a team of eleven, and they all need to roll their sleeves up and show some fight and importantly, they need to remember how effective we can be with our backs to the wall.
 
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=36206.msg955275#msg955275 date=1254394637]
[quote author=grjt link=topic=36206.msg955268#msg955268 date=1254393884]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=36206.msg955265#msg955265 date=1254393445]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36206.msg955262#msg955262 date=1254392870]
I'm not saying either should make way, because the alternatives aren't viable for such a big game. If we'd had the opportunity to try whichever partnership against Hull or Fiorentina then it would have been a different story, but we have a player returning from a lengthy injury and an inexperienced player as alternatives.

I'm not 'defending' Skrtel's form, I said as much in my post, I just don't see why he's being made the scapegoat, individually and collectively we've been poor defensively, is anyone gonna argue that?
[/quote]

as we've conceeded almost all of our goals on set-pieces it must come down to our centre-pairing


[/quote]

That literally makes no sense - goals conceded from set-pieces using zonal marking means that the CBs are the most liable?

Both Carra and Skittles have at best been mediocre this season, and in open play have been fallible (perhaps due to attacking nature of the full backs, but most importantly because they are not playing as a partnership) - but the whole point of zonal marking is that the whole team operates as a choesive defensive unit; and it simply isnt happening.
[/quote]
You may have a point but still who do you reckon is our most important players when it comes to zonal-marking on set-pieces?

If it's not our central defenders I'd be amazed.
[/quote]

As with all defending our CBs are the mainstay, generally because theyre responsible for the areas that see the most ball, but you can see from the goals weve conceded that the ball has been consistently delivered right on the fringe between one players area of repsonsibility, and anothers. Add a smidge of low confidence, and lack of faith between the centre backs and its a recipe for disaster.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36206.msg955277#msg955277 date=1254394701]
Of course I wouldn't, but lets face it, when yours and Neil's agenda's are to fight Aggers cause (and in Neil's case, automatically criticising Skrtel as a form of promoting the other), it's hard not to feel embittered by the reasoning behind it.

Personally I've got nothing against Agger coming in, even at the expense of Skrtel, something needs changing, but they're a bank of four and a team of eleven, and they all need to roll their sleeves up and show some fight and importantly, they need to remember how effective we can be with our backs to the wall.
[/quote]
I wasn't trying to embitter you mate.

All I'm saying is that we need a change in the back-line and I've even made it clear that to include Agger come Sunday seems premature.

That said I'm thrilled Agger is coming back as I reckon we are a better team with him playing. Some posters diagree and think's Skrtl's the better defender, but that's life we can't agree on everything, that would be rather boring anyways.
 
[quote author=grjt link=topic=36206.msg955281#msg955281 date=1254394968]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=36206.msg955275#msg955275 date=1254394637]
[quote author=grjt link=topic=36206.msg955268#msg955268 date=1254393884]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=36206.msg955265#msg955265 date=1254393445]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36206.msg955262#msg955262 date=1254392870]
I'm not saying either should make way, because the alternatives aren't viable for such a big game. If we'd had the opportunity to try whichever partnership against Hull or Fiorentina then it would have been a different story, but we have a player returning from a lengthy injury and an inexperienced player as alternatives.

I'm not 'defending' Skrtel's form, I said as much in my post, I just don't see why he's being made the scapegoat, individually and collectively we've been poor defensively, is anyone gonna argue that?
[/quote]

as we've conceeded almost all of our goals on set-pieces it must come down to our centre-pairing


[/quote]

That literally makes no sense - goals conceded from set-pieces using zonal marking means that the CBs are the most liable?

Both Carra and Skittles have at best been mediocre this season, and in open play have been fallible (perhaps due to attacking nature of the full backs, but most importantly because they are not playing as a partnership) - but the whole point of zonal marking is that the whole team operates as a choesive defensive unit; and it simply isnt happening.
[/quote]
You may have a point but still who do you reckon is our most important players when it comes to zonal-marking on set-pieces?

If it's not our central defenders I'd be amazed.
[/quote]

As with all defending our CBs are the mainstay, generally because theyre responsible for the areas that see the most ball, but you can see from the goals weve conceded that the ball has been consistently delivered right on the fringe between one players area of repsonsibility, and anothers. Add a smidge of low confidence, and lack of faith between the centre backs and its a recipe for disaster. [/quote]

I agree whole-heartedly.

I don't think Skrtl's become a bad defender overnight, not has Carra, but their understanding and faith in eachother has gone AWOL it seems.
 
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=36206.msg955282#msg955282 date=1254395041]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36206.msg955277#msg955277 date=1254394701]
Of course I wouldn't, but lets face it, when yours and Neil's agenda's are to fight Aggers cause (and in Neil's case, automatically criticising Skrtel as a form of promoting the other), it's hard not to feel embittered by the reasoning behind it.

Personally I've got nothing against Agger coming in, even at the expense of Skrtel, something needs changing, but they're a bank of four and a team of eleven, and they all need to roll their sleeves up and show some fight and importantly, they need to remember how effective we can be with our backs to the wall.
[/quote]
I wasn't trying to embitter you mate.

All I'm saying is that we need a change in the back-line and I've even made it clear that to include Agger come Sunday seems premature.

That said I'm thrilled Agger is coming back as I reckon we are a better team with him playing. Some posters diagree and think's Skrtl's the better defender, but that's life we can't agree on everything, that would be rather boring anyways.
[/quote]

Ha.. it was probably too strong a word, but anyway, you get the jist.

Something needs changing and I think the experience of Aurelio and the option of bringing Agger back in (not to underestimate the power of competition either) could see us buck our ideas up sooner rather than later.

As grjt has said though, zonally at least we need to function better as a unit and address the issues before it ends horribly. It'd be criminal if we lost momentum in the title race because of a few sloppy errors and a lack of understanding from setpieces.
 
The woeful form of both our centre-backs aside, we are having issues with the fullbacks and the midfield.

We are asking our fullbacks to get forwards and provide as much width as possible, but whereas previously we'd have a well balanced midfield that would afford the defence protection and cover their runs, we now have a midfield that is all over the place. I mean, what's the point of playing a 4-2-3-1 with two holding midfielders, if they can't 'hold the midfield'?

That's what we've seen happen too often this season. We've been positionally poor, lacking in assertiveness and unable to control the tempo of the game. It's this sort of thing that needs to be rectified otherwise it doesn't matter who you put at CB - they're going to be left exposed.

This is what we've wondered for a few seasons now, isn't it? Is our defensive record down to having a wonderful backline or is our wonderful midfield and very organized approach to the game massive contributory factors?

Well, whatever the defence is going through at the moment, the rest of the team needs to fucking sort it out and help them through it.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=36206.msg955286#msg955286 date=1254395531]
The woeful form of both our centre-backs aside, we are having issues with the fullbacks and the midfield.

We are asking our fullbacks to get forwards and provide as much width as possible, but whereas previously we'd have a well balanced midfield that would afford the defence protection and cover their runs, we now have a midfield that is all over the place. I mean, what's the point of playing a 4-2-3-1 with two holding midfielders, if they can't 'hold the midfield'?

That's what we've seen happen too often this season. We've been positionally poor, lacking in assertiveness and unable to control the tempo of the game. It's this sort of thing that needs to be rectified otherwise it doesn't matter who you put at CB - they're going to be left exposed.

This is what we've wondered for a few seasons now, isn't it? Is our defensive record down to having a wonderful backline or is our wonderful midfield and very organized approach to the game massive contributory factors?

Well, whatever the defence is going through at the moment, the rest of the team needs to fucking sort it out and help them through it.
[/quote]

when the fullbacks move forwards then the two (read them; TWO) holding midfielders should move to cover. if the holding midfielders aren't covering the attacking players then what's the point of having them? it should be noted the first goal from the italians came through the middle of the park.

the way we are curretly defending set peices is flawed. there is nothing wrong with zonal marking when executed correctly. the ball is played in and as a unit you attack the first ball, if you don't win the first ball you push up as a unit and catch everyone off side, currently we are doing neither, if we aren't going to push up then we may as well put people on the post. pellegrino the defensive coach needs to get his shit together.

agger is the messiah but he is our best header of the ball and frankly I will take that right now.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=36206.msg955296#msg955296 date=1254396769]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=36206.msg955286#msg955286 date=1254395531]
The woeful form of both our centre-backs aside, we are having issues with the fullbacks and the midfield.

We are asking our fullbacks to get forwards and provide as much width as possible, but whereas previously we'd have a well balanced midfield that would afford the defence protection and cover their runs, we now have a midfield that is all over the place. I mean, what's the point of playing a 4-2-3-1 with two holding midfielders, if they can't 'hold the midfield'?

That's what we've seen happen too often this season. We've been positionally poor, lacking in assertiveness and unable to control the tempo of the game. It's this sort of thing that needs to be rectified otherwise it doesn't matter who you put at CB - they're going to be left exposed.

This is what we've wondered for a few seasons now, isn't it? Is our defensive record down to having a wonderful backline or is our wonderful midfield and very organized approach to the game massive contributory factors?

Well, whatever the defence is going through at the moment, the rest of the team needs to fucking sort it out and help them through it.
[/quote]

when the fullbacks move forwards then the two (read them; TWO) holding midfielders should move to cover. if the holding midfielders aren't covering the attacking players then what's the point of having them? it should be noted the first goal from the italians came through the middle of the park.

the way we are curretly defending set peices is flawed. there is nothing wrong with zonal marking when executed correctly. the ball is played in and as a unit you attack the first ball, if you don't win the first ball you push up as a unit and catch everyone off side, currently we are doing neither, if we aren't going to push up then we may as well put people on the post. pellegrino the defensive coach needs to get his shit together.

agger is the messiah but he is our best header of the ball and frankly I will take that right now.
[/quote]

That's probably taking it a bit too far but I can see where you are coming from...

lolzers
 
Fábio Aurélio is now in his seventh season in the employ of Rafael Benítez and has never witnessed the Spaniard erupt as he did at the Stadio Artemio Franchi. It takes something extraordinary for the Liverpool manager to remove his detached reserve in front of players. The first half in Florence sufficed.

Pandemonium reigned around Benítez at half-time in Istanbul, with Liverpool trailing by three goals in the 2005 Champions League final against Milan, players lying around injured or shell-shocked, yet he managed to hold his nerve and cool. Not at half-time on Tuesday night.

Stevan Jovetic's two goals may have polished an eye-catching display from the 19-year-old Montenegrin, Fiorentina may have clicked beyond even their own expectations, but Benítez could not excuse a feeble and complacent display that ignored all his pre-match instructions.

"The manager was really angry. I think that was the most annoyed we have ever seen the manager," revealed Aurélio, who spent two seasons with Benítez in Valencia before following him to Anfield in 2006. "But we were all angry. We all felt like that after the first half and I think that's why you saw a better performance in the second.

"We didn't need harsh words at half-time, we all knew that we were not playing well and that we had to be much better. The manager was not the only one who was annoyed at half-time. In the second we were a different side and if it had been like that from the start it could have been a different result." It could have been a different result, true, but Aurélio's assessment is in keeping with a Liverpool display that appeared wise only after the event.

Benítez submitted the second-half improvement as justification for selecting Aurélio, a left-back returning from a lengthy knee injury, alongside Lucas Leiva in central midfield. The principle behind the decision was sound enough, in that it allowed Steven Gerrard to support Fernando Torres in attack and not water-carry in midfield. But it undermined the manager's argument that Fiorentina's exuberant display held no surprises and that Liverpool knew what to expect.

The visitors were light on top-class central midfielders when they arrived in Tuscany, Javier Mascherano having pulled out of the trip with a hamstring strain and Alberto Aquilani approximately three weeks away from his Liverpool debut. They were well-stocked with the supporting cast for Torres. Gerrard was required next to Lucas in the circumstances, and only the paucity of Benítez's options in midfield was exposed as the captain waited for possession that never came through. The Spaniard insisted Aurélio and Lucas were not the problem, and they certainly were not the only one in Florence, but will he select them at Chelsea should Mascherano pull up lame again?

"We didn't do what we usually do well away in Europe," admitted Gerrard. "We usually play with a high tempo, pass the ball well and play really well on the counter-attack. Those things weren't there and it was all over the pitch – from front to back. Now we have to get this result out of our system and show a reaction at Stamford Bridge."

Liverpool's confidence will survive a first Champions League group defeat in almost two years, the last at Besiktas in October 2007, and they have a habit of responding instantly under Benítez. Their defence, however, slipped even further from its formidable reputation in Italy, with Emiliano Insúa and Glen Johnson frequently exposed at full-back and Martin Skrtel suffering a meltdown. The sight of the Slovakian throwing his hands up in despair and stopping his pursuit of Jovetic as the Fiorentina forward raced by once more was beyond belief. Daniel Agger, who made a 68-minute comeback from a back injury for the reserves on Tuesday, must be under consideration for Chelsea.

"It was so unlike Liverpool, especially in the first half when we could not find a way to play against them and they played really well," Aurélio added. "We conceded a lot of space to them in our own half which made it very difficult for us to find our true game.

"In the second half we controlled more of it and created chances that normally we would have taken. We just couldn't find a way to play against them in the first half, and they were finding a lot of space. They were controlling the ball and we couldn't come up with any way to stop them. At the moment we are conceding too much space and we need to keep working hard on that if we want to improve."
Click to expand...
 
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=36206.msg955316#msg955316 date=1254399732]
Would you take a draw now if someone offered it to you?
[/quote]
Yes. I probably would.

But I'm qutie sure we've got a good chance to win all thre actually.

A draw at the Bridge isn't bad though. Would restore a lot of confidence without loosing any serious terrain.
 
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=36206.msg955321#msg955321 date=1254399883]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=36206.msg955316#msg955316 date=1254399732]
Would you take a draw now if someone offered it to you?
[/quote]
Yes. I probably would.

But I'm qutie sure we've got a good chance to win all thre actually.

A draw at the Bridge isn't bad though. Would restore a lot of confidence without loosing any serious terrain.
[/quote]

Yeah, me too. If we lose this game, we're six points behind Chelsea - and probably United too. Not irrecoverable, but worrying.
 
It depends on Agger's fitness really. He did play a full 90 minutes the other night but physically he'll obviously be a bit short. It doesn't mean he can't play very well though as some players are capable of slotting straight back in the groove after a long lay-off, such as Alonso.

For me Agger is much the better option if fit, so if Rafa, the coaching staff and Agger himself think he's ready I'd throw him in. Skrtel is clearly suffering a real dip in form and confidence.

As for some posters highlighting Agger's monstering by Drogba a few years back, they're forgetting that he more than put that to bed in the second leg, giving Drogba a real physical battering. He's handled Drogba well every game since.
 
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=36206.msg955316#msg955316 date=1254399732]
Would you take a draw now if someone offered it to you?
[/quote]

Away against Chelsea? Of course.
 
I wouldn't.

Hand on heart I think we've got a good shot at winning this game. I have little faith in our defence but the way theirs performed against Wigan, Chelsea fans will be equally nervous about facing Kuyt, Yossi, Gerrard & Torres.
 
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