Carra's days numbered?

[Vlads Quiff]

[quote author=Mors link=topic=35299.msg926886#msg926886 date=1250577487]
I think he's going to have to start slowing it down a bit more as of this season.

He started to get a bit shakey in places last season, and it looks like it's continued into the pre season and the new season. He's still a great defender and should be playing all our big games, but the time will come, and I don't think it's that far away.
[/quote]

Exactly so Mors. He has looked off the pace towards the end of the last few seasons, and his legs start suffering.
If anyone should benefit from being tactically rested through a long season it should be Carra, he is 32 in January. If we like it or not his days clearly are numbered, and I can see Gareths point about an available player for the simple ball, but that is the least of his worries, time and tide wait for no man, not even Carra.

regards

 

[gkmacca]

As for hoofing the ball forward, well, that's a collective problem at the back. I've felt for years we look pre-historic the way we try to move out of our own half - the midfield moves up, the back four stand in a line, pass it between each other and then someone boots it vaguely in the direction of a player who has about four opponents around him and we lose possession. Agger's represented the only tantalising hint of an alternative to this witless routine, which is why, I suppose, we indulge the man so much.

Carra has better technique than some claim. He's also added the odd bit to his game, such as that high ball played in to Torres on the right of the penalty area that gave us that great goal against Blackburn last season. But I quite agree he needs resting for some matches. I've just finished reading the paperback of his autobiography and it's so intense I feel I don't want to think about Carra for several months - so I dread to think how HE feels having to live with himself!

 

[cochyn]

[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=35299.msg926913#msg926913 date=1250581228]
Torres is shite at his defensive positioning. [/quote]

This sentence sums how ludicrous this thread is!!!

Despite the clear satire of the original sentence!!

 

[Tinto]

Carra's days will be numbered when age catches up with him but not so much because of his hoofing.

Now that Xabi's gone, we have to see Mascher take on a larger responsibility in coming for the ball than he used to playing alongside Xabi. And that would also be true too, if we want to see Aqualini playing higher up the pitch rather than being so close to the centre halves as Xabi was.

I know Reira isn't as consistently good in the final third as we would all like, but I felt we missed him on Sunday. He is excellent at keeping possession in the middle third and being an outlet for defense. I think having him there helped Xabi's game too last season as it meant Xabi couldn't be targeted by the opposition as much

Both Kuyt and Babel didn't do enough to help out Lucas and Mascher on Sunday for me, which contributed to our disjointed display.

 

[spider-Neil]

it may not be carra's responisbility to dictate the tempo of the game but its everyones reponsibility to keep the ball better.

anyway, carra can play until he is 40, he never had any pace to lose and reads the game well but eventually he will play less and less, as it is I don't think he should play in any competition other than the league and CL.

 

[Richey]

This kind of thread is disappointing but not surprising. People seem to have been dying to write off Carragher for years. Some (though generally not on this site I have to say) even go as far as to claim that the only reason he is any good now is because of Benitez. This is untrue.

Carragher is still out best defender in the purest sense of the word. His positioning is good, he is strong, can tackle well and he is not as painfully slow as, say, John Terry.

Yes it is true that his distribution is not always the best but even this is laughably underrated. The way he is described on this thread makes him sound like a liability who needs constant protection, not a very reliable defender, our current longest serving player who has played nearly 600 games for the club (9th in our all time rankings)

Saying that Alonso's departure may impact upon Carragher may well be true, but that is a problem Benitez has to sort out in the midfield, either by Lucas or Mascherano or by Aquilani when he becomes fit.
Losing Alonso is a heavy enough blow without saying "well, that means Carragher is useless too".

The funny thing is that all the people who right off Carragher will be the same people who will complain when he finally does go

 

[ILD]

Both our centre backs will be guilty of 'hoofing' it a bit more due to the loss of Alonso who was an outlet for them. We need Lucas and Masher to take the ball from the centre halves and link defence to attack, a job that Alonso did effectively for us.

 

[gkmacca]

Was Xabi such an outlet for them? There was usually a big gap between the defenders and anyone in midfield, and the ball either went over Alonso's head or to either wing, didn't it? Maybe my memory has been soured by the thought of the worst attempts to boot the ball on.

 

[Richey]

Well people complained about 'hoofing' even when Alonso was here so if he was there to totally eliminate the practice then he clearly wasn't the best at it!

I get the feeling that this season everything that goes wrong will be greeted with "it wouldn't have happened if we still had Xabi". Short term history will be written with Alonso as some kind of superman.

 

[Ossi]

[quote author=Richey link=topic=35299.msg927035#msg927035 date=1250592033]
Well people complained about 'hoofing' even when Alonso was here so if he was there to totally eliminate the practice then he clearly wasn't the best at it!

I get the feeling that this season everything that goes wrong will be greeted with "it wouldn't have happened if we still had Xabi". Short term history will be written with Alonso as some kind of superman.
[/quote]

You obviously have a point there...but if you compare Lucas/Mascherano with Alonso the latter IS a superman (playmaker-wise).

Our cbs had to hoof it when teams closed Alonso down two seasons ago but last season something was different. Can´t really say what but perhaps because our flanks pulled further up the pitch and gave Alonso more space.

 

[Rouge Penguin]

I love the internet. Micro analysing a players ability, and arguing about it, when in fact it makes fuck all difference to the outcome.

 

[Ossi]

[quote author=Rouge Penguin link=topic=35299.msg927072#msg927072 date=1250596130]
I love the internet. Micro analysing a players ability, and arguing about it, when in fact it makes fuck all difference to the outcome.




[/quote]

Well...do you have a better suggestion what to do while at work?

 

[ILD]

[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=35299.msg927031#msg927031 date=1250591674]
Was Xabi such an outlet for them? There was usually a big gap between the defenders and anyone in midfield, and the ball either went over Alonso's head or to either wing, didn't it? Maybe my memory has been soured by the thought of the worst attempts to boot the ball on.
[/quote]

I think he was an outlet anyway. Xabi was always prepared to take the ball off the centre back.

 

[ILD]

[quote author=Richey link=topic=35299.msg927035#msg927035 date=1250592033]
Well people complained about 'hoofing' even when Alonso was here so if he was there to totally eliminate the practice then he clearly wasn't the best at it!

I get the feeling that this season everything that goes wrong will be greeted with "it wouldn't have happened if we still had Xabi". Short term history will be written with Alonso as some kind of superman.
[/quote]

Many things can and will go wrong during the course of a season. These things will obviously occur with or without Xabi Alonso. That's not the point, the whole world doesn't revolve him. We all know that.

But in THIS instance it is safe to say that the absence of Alonso could easily lead to our CB's hoofing the ball more than usual as opposed to passing it to an outlet who can help link defence to attack. In my opinion Alonso was that outlet.

Rafa needs to highlight this as Jon said earlier in the thread. Carragher is not at fault solely and his days are not numbered.

Should we merge this with Alonso thread saga and are we done with that!!

 

[LarryHagman]

[quote author=Ossi link=topic=35299.msg927075#msg927075 date=1250596300]
[quote author=Rouge Penguin link=topic=35299.msg927072#msg927072 date=1250596130]
I love the internet. Micro analysing a players ability, and arguing about it, when in fact it makes fuck all difference to the outcome.




[/quote]

Well...do you have a better suggestion what to do while at work?
[/quote]

My favourite 6CM post ever. Nice one Ossi, life in a nutshell!

 

[Hooz]

Carragher is the best defender we have at the club by miles.

 

[robinhood]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=35299.msg926947#msg926947 date=1250584353]
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=35299.msg926915#msg926915 date=1250581312]
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=35299.msg926913#msg926913 date=1250581228]
Torres is shite at his defensive positioning. [/quote]

As if it matters
[/quote]

He wasn't being serious.
[/quote]

Wasn't he?

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Hooz link=topic=35299.msg927287#msg927287 date=1250612743]
Carragher is the best defender we have at the club by miles.
[/quote]

carra is the best defender at the club but it isn't by a mile and while sami was here I thought sami was the best defender at the club.

 

[Hooz]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35299.msg927296#msg927296 date=1250614763]
carra is the best defender at the club but it isn't by a mile and while sami was here I thought sami was the best defender at the club.
[/quote]

It's definitely a mile.

 

[cochyn]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35299.msg927296#msg927296 date=1250614763]
[quote author=Hooz link=topic=35299.msg927287#msg927287 date=1250612743]
Carragher is the best defender we have at the club by miles.
[/quote]

carra is the best defender at the club but it isn't by a mile and while sami was here I thought sami was the best defender at the club.
[/quote]

*speechless*

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Hooz link=topic=35299.msg927298#msg927298 date=1250614940]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35299.msg927296#msg927296 date=1250614763]
carra is the best defender at the club but it isn't by a mile and while sami was here I thought sami was the best defender at the club.
[/quote]

It's definitely a mile.
[/quote]

there are things that carra does exceptionally well and there are things that agger does exceptionally well. carra is better than agger (at the moment) but it isn't by a mile, of course only in my humble opinion.

 

[spider-Neil]

anyway, how the hell do you quantify something like that? better by a mile?

 

[Avmenon]

I wish we had Sami back tho

 

[Squiggles]

In his prime Hyypia was just about the better defender, but his mobility and already low speed reduced, and he could no longer be relied upon to play 30 games a year.

I would have liked to see Hyypia play more games last year and therefore stay, I think we took it for granted that he would. But it's fair to say Carragher's been the best for some while now, and still remains so.

 

[Oncy]

I doubt we'll EVER win another game without Alonso, to take the ball off our spacky legged centre backs, play it short in a triangle with Lucas and Mascherano (being careful not to put too much pressure on them to do anything other than not fall over, before taking the ball back and bypassing the hapless Riera, Benayoun and Kuyt with a 60yard inch perfect pass to Gerrard, who untill Xabi picked him out had been wandering around in a circle trying to figure out how to get the ball off the centre backs without allowing the awful central midfielders to touch it and without him actually having to be arsed to go back over the halfway line to help out, who in turn looks to see where Alonso is motioning him to play the ball too, so that Nando can have an easy tap in, whilst Alonso himself jogs back to the halfway line in order to make sure the gormless 'defensive 7' havnt started eating there own heads and of course ready to rifle another laser guided rocket onto Gerrards toe from 60yards or into the top corner with barely a smile dancing oer his chiseled and handsome visage.
All the signs were there for all to see in all the games we've played so far this season. Were doomed. Xabifc is no more. Its hoofballspackynotemposhitefc now. Woe is me.

 

[Avmenon]

*applauds*

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=35299.msg927326#msg927326 date=1250619473]
*applauds*
[/quote]Im sick and fucking tired of the slagging our players (players still here who WANT to play for my fucking club) are getting from the fans about their obvious 'deficiencies' that Xabi has been covering up for years. The absolute nerve!

 

[ILD]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=35299.msg927324#msg927324 date=1250619261]
I doubt we'll EVER win another game without Alonso, to take the ball off our spacky legged centre backs, play it short in a triangle with Lucas and Mascherano (being careful not to put too much pressure on them to do anything other than not fall over, before taking the ball back and bypassing the hapless Riera, Benayoun and Kuyt with a 60yard inch perfect pass to Gerrard, who untill Xabi picked him out had been wandering around in a circle trying to figure out how to get the ball off the centre backs without allowing the awful central midfielders to touch it and without him actually having to be arsed to go back over the halfway line to help out, who in turn looks to see where Alonso is motioning him to play the ball too, so that Nando can have an easy tap in, whilst Alonso himself jogs back to the halfway line in order to make sure the gormless 'defensive 7' havnt started eating there own heads and of course ready to rifle another laser guided rocket onto Gerrards toe from 60yards or into the top corner with barely a smile dancing oer his chiseled and handsome visage.
All the signs were there for all to see in all the games we've played so far this season. Were doomed. Xabifc is no more. Its hoofballspackynotemposhitefc now. Woe is me.
[/quote]

Oncy, you really seem to want to hammer home your 'We wont miss Alonso that much' stance.
Not saying that all that was directed at me but since I did claim Alonso to be an effective outlet for our CB's so i'll reply. I said Alonso was an outlet for our CB's to pass the ball to. What's wrong with that statement? He was an outlet for them to give it to them. The centre back might feel more inclined to take the ball on more thus rendering them more likely to kick it long if a player isn't showing for them.

Don't see why you felt the need to add a sensational OTT tirade as if anyone was claiming Alonso was Roy of the Rovers. I said he used provide an outlet for CB's. You're being extreme in your tirade against Alonso.

 

[ILD]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=35299.msg927328#msg927328 date=1250619665]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=35299.msg927326#msg927326 date=1250619473]
*applauds*
[/quote]Im sick and fucking tired of the slagging our players (players still here who WANT to play for my fucking club) are getting from the fans about their obvious 'deficiencies' that Xabi has been covering up for years. The absolute nerve!
[/quote]

Who was slagging off our players Oncy? Everyone in this thread is of the same opinion that Carragher is our best defender, which he obviously is. The original poster is way over the top, of course Carragher isn't finished. He was told that by many in the thread.

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=ILD link=topic=35299.msg927332#msg927332 date=1250620414]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=35299.msg927324#msg927324 date=1250619261]
I doubt we'll EVER win another game without Alonso, to take the ball off our spacky legged centre backs, play it short in a triangle with Lucas and Mascherano (being careful not to put too much pressure on them to do anything other than not fall over, before taking the ball back and bypassing the hapless Riera, Benayoun and Kuyt with a 60yard inch perfect pass to Gerrard, who untill Xabi picked him out had been wandering around in a circle trying to figure out how to get the ball off the centre backs without allowing the awful central midfielders to touch it and without him actually having to be arsed to go back over the halfway line to help out, who in turn looks to see where Alonso is motioning him to play the ball too, so that Nando can have an easy tap in, whilst Alonso himself jogs back to the halfway line in order to make sure the gormless 'defensive 7' havnt started eating there own heads and of course ready to rifle another laser guided rocket onto Gerrards toe from 60yards or into the top corner with barely a smile dancing oer his chiseled and handsome visage.
All the signs were there for all to see in all the games we've played so far this season. Were doomed. Xabifc is no more. Its hoofballspackynotemposhitefc now. Woe is me.
[/quote]

Oncy, you really seem to want to hammer home your 'We wont miss Alonso that much' stance.
Not saying that all that was directed at me but since I did claim Alonso to be an effective outlet for our CB's so i'll reply. I said Alonso was an outlet for our CB's to pass the ball to. What's wrong with that statement? He was an outlet for them to give it to them. The centre back might feel more inclined to take the ball on more thus rendering them more likely to kick it long if a player isn't showing for them.

Don't see why you felt the need to add a sensational OTT tirade as if anyone was claiming Alonso was Roy of the Rovers. I said he used provide an outlet for CB's. You're being extreme in your tirade against Alonso.
[/quote]I wasnt talking to you Dave. I didnt even know you'd posted in this thread.
The original posts point was 'without Xabi' to come and take the ball off Carra (which he didnt anyway, a point made by Macca and ignored) Carra will just hoof it long as he cant play football, a fact covered up by Xabi.
I dont know why youre even getting involved mate. Youre making a (personal) mountain out of a molehill.
In the past 2 days Gerrard, Torres, Lucas, Mascherano and now (finally and the last straw) Carragher have been critisized in direct relation to points being made about Xabi and how his leaving (of his own choice) has ruined our Shape, rhythym, tempo etc not just on here but in every gutter press paper.
This GREAT football team will continue to function and god willing succeed without Alonso. And im sick of seing our good pro's being critiqued in a very veiled '....well it wouldnt be like this if Xabi were here' way.
Pah.