Yes, this. For all the rave reviews of our 'Fab Four / Three' we are far less likely to find a way through these teams than our rivals and that's what's so infuriating.
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Yes, this. For all the rave reviews of our 'Fab Four / Three' we are far less likely to find a way through these teams than our rivals and that's what's so infuriating.
I'm guessing he has you on ignore.
It wasn't posted for his benefit
But if you are in the PL surviving for next season is a shit strategy if you look for revenues only. The stadium need constant upgrading, the fans are allways dissapointed and angry that not more of owners money are spent om New shit players capable of securing another topflight season and Even teenagers brought through the youth system demands over the top silly wages or they leave for your rivals willing to add another 5000 on the paycheck. On top of this you'r manager and his allways lojal backroom staff is either complete useless so it cost a fortune sacking them all or so good they will jump to a better club as soon as they get a chance.
Owners should really have higher ambitions than revenue alone. Dare to take a longterm view. Use a couple of seasons building a team you think is capable for more than survival.
It's an interesting debate. There's always people on here moaning that smaller clubs don't just roll over and let us pump them, but have the temerity to play defensively and make it hard to find space and break them down.
How dare they!
But then often those clubs have fans who, understandably, don't really enjoy the weekly grind of 0-0 or 1-0 or 0-1, and crave something more. So out goes Tony Pulis/ David Moyes/ Sam Allardyce/ Claude Puel and in comes.....fucking whoever. Some foreign bloke nobody has heard of. Or Mark Hughes. Or someone else that pretends to play "more open, attacking football" like Pardew.
And then that team sinks like a rock. And then they get sacked.
West Brom is a perfect example of this. Palace another. Everton, Swansea, Stoke, Southampton.....all want or wanted a different approach, a new way of playing. And end up with Roberto Martinez.
But teams that have had longevity, become established in the Premiership and stuck with the same manager and style (whether attractive or otherwise) aren't common. I can't think of any. Burnley have been up and relegated and up again under Dyche. Bournemouth have been in the top league for two years.
No "second-tier" club seems to have a far-reaching plan, manager or philosophy that survives more than a few punches in the mouth.
Southampton have arguably had a system in place that has guaranteed at least some sense of strategic vision, regardless of manager, which revolves around a production line of talent sold off (usually to Liverpool) and then replaced. But even that seems to have run out of steam, their humble ambitions notwithstanding.
The lack of vision is baffling really.
I have no problems with Burnley as they are really minors that have stuck to their plan and strategy even if they went down, and now it seem to pay off. What is more strange is that clubs like Southampton, Everton, West Ham and Stoke i.e. doesn't seem to have better ideas what to do with their fortunes. Southampton lost too many players in the end, but are on their third manager in three seasons, and look to get rid of this as well. Everton goes for Fat Sam? What vision is that? Should be build up the club and oversea their academy as well? Take them from 8 to top 4 fight? Can't see that one.
Newcastle got some potential if they keep Rafa, but then they need to know he is there for forseeable future. Maybe he will. But can they back hun enough?
WBA are another nutcase. What do they expect from Pulis or Pardew? Keep their place? Max... But is that an ambition?
The issue is also linked to style of play. And that's where it comes unstuck. To play football like many of the top teams is impossible. Where are West Brom or Everton going to find players like Aguero, Salah, Kane, Coutinho, Hazard and De Bruyne?
They can't. Or if they stumble across such a talent, they soon lose them.
So it's IMPOSSIBLE for them to try and play the same kind of football as Liverpool, City and Spurs, except with worse players. That's just stupid. So they need to try and find different ways to get results. And that results in different playing styles and philosophies, some of which are not as aesthetically pleasing as others.
It's like how Wimbledon used to play, or any of those early proto-"direct" football teams like Watford under Taylor, or even a more refined version like Liverpool under Benitez and Houllier, with the issue of sometimes less technically gifted players addressed by a different type of football.
True. I don't think anyone can question style of play as everyone need to take care of themselves. Wimbledon is a good shout really cause they had a style and stuck to Kinnear year by year taking them to stable good finnishes and a Cup title. They eventually fell apart but not until the Norwegian coach came and tried to out their crazyness into structure.
I don't blame Pulis either for his style, but what is WBA going to do with it? Buy one guy who throws really long and then and tall guys to the squad...? And when it doesn't work you add Pardew who will try get the same gang play different in the fight for survival?
Managers are sacked based on where they are in that moment no matter what. Leicester sacked a guy who won the PL, and has later sacked his replacement... that is daft. I don't know how they should buildt on that experience differently but I guess that momentum is well pass them now.
Only City (obviously) and United (by one point = one draw) have better records against teams outside the Top 6 than we do. It's because we as Liverpool fans feel every draw and loss more keenly that we feel we are doing worse than others, whereas the reality is somewhat different.
Well, is it such a good shout? Wimbledon were horrible but they didn't play five and five in their own half all game. They had a bit more pride than that. They attacked quickly and often and were brutal. That's not the same thing as all these teams today, with technically FAR better players, all lining up as if they're some knee-knocking non-league team in the third round of the cup. Every other week. People can play the JS Mill card of studied tolerance if they like - give them a teampoint - but the idea that this is the only way, or even the best way, for them to survive is highly questionable. 'They're a Formula 1 car so we put them in a traffic jam'. Really? If you're in the same league, mate, YOU'RE supposed to be a Formula 1 car, too. If you think you're a go-kart, go down to the go-kart league.
I meant that Wimbledon was a good shout as they actually had a longer view and plan, and not that other should copy their style. Wimbledon stuck to the plan and recruited players to fit in. Nowadays clubs recruits players that might fit a manager they will sack shortly anyway.
Yeah I wouldn't mind a few old style brick teams. For Wimbledon it was part of their identity and everyone knew what to expect.... West Ham was a bit of the same. They had a clear identity, and they sacked Arry for not getting them over his stable 7-10 finnishes. And maybe fair enough, but it shower they har no clue what should take them the next level so they just look stupid after that.
As someone who has suffered through quite a few Wimbledon smash and grabs against Liverpool, as many of us have, there was a grudging respect for how they played. (Albeit after many years have passed and the bitterness has subsided a touch).
But the F1 analogy articulated by Carvalhal at Swansea is interesting, in that the richest teams still have the best cars, drivers and designers, and the budget to test, improve and win more often with an army of engineers and their own NASA wind tunnel. And then poach any talent that the smaller teams have as soon as they emerge. So Force India or Lotus or whoever will never be able to compete with McClaren, Mercedes, Red Bull or Ferrari these days.
So they DO have to find a way to put us in traffic, because they can't win a straight line drag race.
I remember hearing that whenVinny Jones booted Kenny Dalglish in the air at his first game at Anfield, Dalglish was the most respected footballer in the country, was player manager for Liverpool, and while he was lying on the ground said to Jones that he'd make sure the fucking thug never played for anyone decent in his career. Jones said his conscious mind shit himself and he was in total awe of Dalglish but his unconscious mind took over and he lifted him back onto his feet by his ears calling him a fucking cunt. I know it's probs bullshit and I'm not meant to, but I couldn't help laugh at that story.
If that's the game I think it was, I'm pretty sure Wimbledon either drew or maybe even won 2-1, and Dalglish scored our goal with a belter
I was in The Kop and my long hate-affair with Wimbledon and Vinnie Jones had just begun.
I only watched close to 30 minutes of him but was impressed. I did a quick search for a NUFC forum and they all rated him very highly. I think I posted about him in the other PL games thread.
Yeah I think the story ended with a Fashanu winner or something.
Again it's probs highly embellished, but before their cup final win against us they made a plan to just talk amongst themselves in the tunnel about who was going to kick the shit out of who, and he said all our lot just put their heads down and said nothing, like they were shitting themselves, and it was at that point they believed they could beat us.
Fair play to Kenny he stopped Jones playing for anyone good. He only played for shit teams
Just curious, has there been a club in other countries who have been able to come from the lower tier and compete at the highest tier on a budget based on a philosophy and a long range plan? Maybe Monaco? Napoli? Bilbao (though outside of a europa league final run, they haven't really competed at the highest level but they have remained in the league for a long time) ?
I think the most important variable for success is recruitment. And recruitment itself has a lot of uncertainty associated with it. The best are better at recruitment than most but there is a reasonable failure rate associated with even with the best. And at the highest level, the penalty associated with getting a couple of transfers wrong can be very high. I think Southampton and Swansea is as good as it gets with the philosophy approach.
That is why I am also slightly nervous about our future prospects. Not in terms of relegation obviously. But in terms of creating a squad capable of competing with the best. Our transfer committee has had a pretty decent run at identifying quality attackers. But the run is bound to end at some point.
I think we have max one more season to win something with the current crop. There is only so many cycles any club can go through.
Our games - watch.
Other top 6 clashes - depends what time/else I'm up to.
Games featuring other PL clubs - fuck that shit.
Foreign games - fuck that shit.
Internationals - fuck that shit.
Other top 6 clashes - depends what time/else I'm up to.
Games featuring other PL clubs - fuck that shit.
Foreign games - fuck that shit.
Internationals - fuck that shit.
We got to learn that Macca has Brendan on ignore too.
I have to update this .. we now have the second best record against teams outside the Top 6 since this chart does not include United's loss at Newcastle.Only City (obviously) and United (by one point = one draw) have better records against teams outside the Top 6 than we do. It's because we as Liverpool fans feel every draw and loss more keenly that we feel we are doing worse than others, whereas the reality is somewhat different.
Leipzig
Do they really fall into that bracket ? Bankrolled by Red Bull and have their own top level feeder team in Austria to test players before sending them to RBL ?
I don't know these things for sure, so I'll take it from the top of my head. But it is clear that the PL har been extreme wealthy through TV and other commercialism, so in other leagues it is probably easier to compete on a budget.
In France teams like Auxerre and others came and challenged for a period. They eventually dissapeared but I don't think they came on the scene as a newly rich club in the first place.
In Spain of course a lot of smaller clubs has done well for themselves and fought hard even in Europe. Sociedad and Bilbao with their all Basque approach (Sociedad can have a limit of foreigners and actually spent part of that quota on Kvarme for a while!!). Betis is another that did well on limited money and Espanyol, Alaves, Deportivo la Coruna, Celta and Villareal are other small clubs which done well in Europe. Italy has the same. Bundesliga also with Werder Bremen being a top club for long time with limited resources.
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