Battle of the Tactical Heavyweights - The Great DM Debate

[zlatan18]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39973.msg1094827#msg1094827 date=1272460740]
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=39973.msg1094822#msg1094822 date=1272460369]
Chelsea, Barcelona, ManU etc.. play with 2 strikers
Xavi-Iniesta are not defensive midfielders...

Drogba-Anelka, Rooney-Tevez, Ibrahinovic/Eto'o - Messi

You're often angry with Torres' behaviour and rightly so, but the main reason is he's completely alone up front.
All the teams above have an attacking midfielder behind 2 strikers, they have a go at other teams and often grab late wins when needed with this attacking mentality.
[/quote]

Chelsea - Anelka plays behind Drogba. Watch them play, it's 4-5-1. Seriously, watch them,
"Barcelona plays with 2 strikers" - They don't. I don't know how else to point this out to you other than... They don't.
United - They only started winning games when they dropped Berbatov. Went to the Emirates with Rooney up front on his own and raped them. Got to the Champions League Final last year without a fucking striker in the team.

Stop. Please please stop.
[/quote]

1 DM is enough... we have Mascherano for that
Barca play with 3 strikers most games..

--Pedro-----------------Ibrahimovic-----------------Messi--

They are the most sucessful team in europe and do not play with 2 DM's in the team

Inter play with 3 strikers aswell.. look at them, 1 game away from the champions league final

----Pandev------------------Millito------------------Eto'o----

They all play with 3 midfields.. 1 defensive the other 2 more attacking

If you wanna play 2 defensive Midfielders then atleast go for a team like this

----------------------Torres----------Kuyt----------------------
----Babel--------------------------------------------Gerrard---
---------------------Mascherano-----DM-----------------------

2 CB's vs 1 striker
or
2 CB's vs 2 strikers

2 strikers obviously makes their life harder

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=39973.msg1094639#msg1094639 date=1272448051]
So anyway, while we enjoy the tactical mastery and nous of Ryan O'Tomkins, Times readers can luxuriate in the deep-thinking analyses of Tony Cascarino every Monday, and this article caught my eye:

"Mikel's absence is evidence of Chelsea's great leap forwards"

"Chelsea's 7-0 victory against Stoke was another nail in the coffin of the holding midfield player. It's not a coincidence that they scored so many goals without Mikel in the side.

His type of player was fashionable five years ago but is redundant these days, where everyone needs to contribute something going forward"

So, who is right? O'Tomkins says we need two. Cascarino reckons they're an anachronism, and nobody should have one.

Thoughts please!
[/quote]

You don't need two, certainly for the majority of games anyway, I think that's a point most have fairly made. I think Ryan's fairly made a point for us to contain the game sometimes. Saying we don't need 'any' is just moronic, as it's clearly needed in certain games.

Istanbul's two halves are the perfect example of whether a DM will even become a redundant role.

 

[Mamma Mia]

[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=39973.msg1094854#msg1094854 date=1272463141]
Gerrard was playing as a striker at the end of the season last year. Yet he is not a striker.

Kuyt is the epitome of Rafa's failure.
Playing players out of position, playing him at RM, RW, alone up front when he's clearly at his best in a striking partnership.
Crouch was scoring 2 in the week in CL tie, Rafa would play the dreadful Kuyt in the following league match.

Again its not rocket science..Anelka, Tevez, Berbatov are strikers, even though they play slightly behind the other striker, the fact remains they are strikers. To say Chelsea play a 4-5-1 and making comprisons with us is ridiculous. The difference between their system and ours is obvious.
A football specialist like you should be capable of seeing it.
[/quote]

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39973.msg1094766#msg1094766 date=1272457524]
Alright, let me throw you a lifeline then...

By "recent trend" can you give me a timeframe please. How "recent" are you talking about? 1 season? 2 years? 10 years? Since 1966?

Thanks.
[/quote]

It has become popular in the 2000's, but you could argue that Toshack used it at Madrid and Fergie used it with United in 1994.

So it's recent in terms of the history of football.

 

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=39973.msg1094676#msg1094676 date=1272449926]
[quote author=Terrier link=topic=39973.msg1094675#msg1094675 date=1272449817]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=39973.msg1094652#msg1094652 date=1272448802]
Utd never have a dedicated destroyer in the side, although players like Keane, Fletcher and Hargreaves give the midfield plenty of bite. They appear to have more license to roam than in our system.
[/quote]


Keane doesn't qualify as a destroyer?

Then what was he, aside from a cunt?
[/quote]

he was more "box-to-box" before age and injury made him sit deeper more often
[/quote]

Keane was only box to box for a year before Fergie changed him to sit in front of the back four to take the ball off them. He still managed 50 goals making the odd dart forward but mostly played a dm position.

 

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39973.msg1094790#msg1094790 date=1272458570]
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=39973.msg1094784#msg1094784 date=1272458322]
Mascher-Gerrard in the middle in every game.
Back to basics, 4-4-2. Pacy wingers and Gerrard behind 2 strikers.
Its not rocket science really.
[/quote]

That's the stuff Lech! Fuck all this fancy tactical bollocks that's got Bayern to a Champions League Final, got Barcelina raping everyone in Europe, got United to more League titles than anyone in the last 20 years. Ignore that none of the three of those best teams in Europe don't play 4-4-2 and go "BACK TO BASICS!" - 4-4-2, fuck the frilly shit out, get the ball in behind, and put em under pressure.
[/quote]

Err....... hasn't Fergie's downfall been his complete lack of tactics in Europe.

In 20 odd years of dominance he's gotten to 3 CL finals. You would expect for an English team so dominate he would have doubled that.

Fergie's tactics are some of the simpliest in the game.

 

[Portly]

[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=39973.msg1095300#msg1095300 date=1272494282]
Fergie's tactics are some of the simplest in the game.
[/quote]

Agreed, Fergie only knows one tactic which is to batter the opposition. Most of the time it works.

As Liverpool supporters we would have had more fun in recent years if we had managers with the same idea! ;D

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=39973.msg1094985#msg1094985 date=1272481870]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39973.msg1094766#msg1094766 date=1272457524]
Alright, let me throw you a lifeline then...

By "recent trend" can you give me a timeframe please. How "recent" are you talking about? 1 season? 2 years? 10 years? Since 1966?

Thanks.
[/quote]

It has become popular in the 2000's, but you could argue that Toshack used it at Madrid and Fergie used it with United in 1994.

So it's recent in terms of the history of football.
[/quote]

Do you think it's the only trend to happen in football recently as well Ross?

 

[doctor_mac]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39973.msg1095337#msg1095337 date=1272497730]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=39973.msg1094985#msg1094985 date=1272481870]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39973.msg1094766#msg1094766 date=1272457524]
Alright, let me throw you a lifeline then...

By "recent trend" can you give me a timeframe please. How "recent" are you talking about? 1 season? 2 years? 10 years? Since 1966?

Thanks.
[/quote]

It has become popular in the 2000's, but you could argue that Toshack used it at Madrid and Fergie used it with United in 1994.

So it's recent in terms of the history of football.
[/quote]

Do you think it's the only trend to happen in football recently as well Ross?
[/quote]

 

[Ryan]

HaHa