Battle of the Tactical Heavyweights - The Great DM Debate
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[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39973.msg1094757#msg1094757 date=1272456765]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=39973.msg1094712#msg1094712 date=1272453255]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39973.msg1094691#msg1094691 date=1272452341]
Whitey summed it up for me. There is no right or wrong way to play, that's what makes football interesting, but the notion that key roles can go out of fashion is nonsense. I would suggest the only key trend in recent time is the popularity of the 4231 system.
[/quote]
I agree Squiggles but with the notable exception of the sweeper, a position rendered extinct by the change of the offside rule.
[/quote]
Interesting one.
The sweeper in the old fashioned sense prospered as the spare man in the back 3 of a 3-5-2. Most sides (us being a pretty good example, Chelsea another, Barca too) play 3-5-2 when in possession - with the defensive midfielder (in Chelsea's case Mikel) dropping alongside the two centre backs. If they drop deep enough, and get the timing right they can take the ball out of defence relatively unchallenged, and in a similar vein to the days of Sammer, etc.
It's not the same, more of an evolution really.
[/quote]
Yup, the bringing-the-ball-out-of-defence role has switched from the sweeper to the DM but the other role of the sweeper, to drop off behind the defensive line ala Baresi, Moore, LeBouef, Hansen etc from goal kicks and long ball clearances in order to clear up flick-ons and catch marrauding wide men in an offside "trap" has largely been rendered inoperable by the offside rule changes.
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=39973.msg1094712#msg1094712 date=1272453255]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39973.msg1094691#msg1094691 date=1272452341]
Whitey summed it up for me. There is no right or wrong way to play, that's what makes football interesting, but the notion that key roles can go out of fashion is nonsense. I would suggest the only key trend in recent time is the popularity of the 4231 system.
[/quote]
I agree Squiggles but with the notable exception of the sweeper, a position rendered extinct by the change of the offside rule.
[/quote]
Interesting one.
The sweeper in the old fashioned sense prospered as the spare man in the back 3 of a 3-5-2. Most sides (us being a pretty good example, Chelsea another, Barca too) play 3-5-2 when in possession - with the defensive midfielder (in Chelsea's case Mikel) dropping alongside the two centre backs. If they drop deep enough, and get the timing right they can take the ball out of defence relatively unchallenged, and in a similar vein to the days of Sammer, etc.
It's not the same, more of an evolution really.
[/quote]
Yup, the bringing-the-ball-out-of-defence role has switched from the sweeper to the DM but the other role of the sweeper, to drop off behind the defensive line ala Baresi, Moore, LeBouef, Hansen etc from goal kicks and long ball clearances in order to clear up flick-ons and catch marrauding wide men in an offside "trap" has largely been rendered inoperable by the offside rule changes.
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=39973.msg1094767#msg1094767 date=1272457580]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39973.msg1094757#msg1094757 date=1272456765]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=39973.msg1094712#msg1094712 date=1272453255]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39973.msg1094691#msg1094691 date=1272452341]
Whitey summed it up for me. There is no right or wrong way to play, that's what makes football interesting, but the notion that key roles can go out of fashion is nonsense. I would suggest the only key trend in recent time is the popularity of the 4231 system.
[/quote]
I agree Squiggles but with the notable exception of the sweeper, a position rendered extinct by the change of the offside rule.
[/quote]
Interesting one.
The sweeper in the old fashioned sense prospered as the spare man in the back 3 of a 3-5-2. Most sides (us being a pretty good example, Chelsea another, Barca too) play 3-5-2 when in possession - with the defensive midfielder (in Chelsea's case Mikel) dropping alongside the two centre backs. If they drop deep enough, and get the timing right they can take the ball out of defence relatively unchallenged, and in a similar vein to the days of Sammer, etc.
It's not the same, more of an evolution really.
[/quote]
Yup, the bringing-the-ball-out-of-defence role has switched from the sweeper to the DM but the other role of the sweeper, to drop off behind the defensive line ala Baresi, Moore, LeBouef, Hansen etc from goal kicks and long ball clearances in order to clear up flick-ons and catch marrauding wide men in an offside "trap" has largely been rendered inoperable by the offside rule changes.
[/quote]
Of course, because no teams defend with a back 3.
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39973.msg1094757#msg1094757 date=1272456765]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=39973.msg1094712#msg1094712 date=1272453255]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39973.msg1094691#msg1094691 date=1272452341]
Whitey summed it up for me. There is no right or wrong way to play, that's what makes football interesting, but the notion that key roles can go out of fashion is nonsense. I would suggest the only key trend in recent time is the popularity of the 4231 system.
[/quote]
I agree Squiggles but with the notable exception of the sweeper, a position rendered extinct by the change of the offside rule.
[/quote]
Interesting one.
The sweeper in the old fashioned sense prospered as the spare man in the back 3 of a 3-5-2. Most sides (us being a pretty good example, Chelsea another, Barca too) play 3-5-2 when in possession - with the defensive midfielder (in Chelsea's case Mikel) dropping alongside the two centre backs. If they drop deep enough, and get the timing right they can take the ball out of defence relatively unchallenged, and in a similar vein to the days of Sammer, etc.
It's not the same, more of an evolution really.
[/quote]
Yup, the bringing-the-ball-out-of-defence role has switched from the sweeper to the DM but the other role of the sweeper, to drop off behind the defensive line ala Baresi, Moore, LeBouef, Hansen etc from goal kicks and long ball clearances in order to clear up flick-ons and catch marrauding wide men in an offside "trap" has largely been rendered inoperable by the offside rule changes.
[/quote]
Of course, because no teams defend with a back 3.
Poor the Ryan.
He's not had a great few weeks lately, has he?
He's not had a great few weeks lately, has he?
Oh and PS, I never said anywhere that 'two DMs never work', you hilarious, insecure flouncing, try-hard twat
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=39973.msg1094776#msg1094776 date=1272458071]
Oh and PS, I never said anywhere that 'two DMs never work', you hilarious, insecure flouncing, try-hard twat
[/quote]
Gettign upset at someone picking out one line of your thread and misquoting it, are you?
Shit isn't it?
Oh and PS, I never said anywhere that 'two DMs never work', you hilarious, insecure flouncing, try-hard twat
[/quote]
Gettign upset at someone picking out one line of your thread and misquoting it, are you?
Shit isn't it?
Not really 'shit' or 'upsetting' to be quite honest
Mildly amusing and diverting, maybe
Mildly amusing and diverting, maybe
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=39973.msg1094784#msg1094784 date=1272458322]
Mascher-Gerrard in the middle in every game.
Back to basics, 4-4-2. Pacy wingers and Gerrard behind 2 strikers.
Its not rocket science really.
[/quote]
That's the stuff Lech! Fuck all this fancy tactical bollocks that's got Bayern to a Champions League Final, got Barcelina raping everyone in Europe, got United to more League titles than anyone in the last 20 years. Ignore that none of the three of those best teams in Europe don't play 4-4-2 and go "BACK TO BASICS!" - 4-4-2, fuck the frilly shit out, get the ball in behind, and put em under pressure.
Mascher-Gerrard in the middle in every game.
Back to basics, 4-4-2. Pacy wingers and Gerrard behind 2 strikers.
Its not rocket science really.
[/quote]
That's the stuff Lech! Fuck all this fancy tactical bollocks that's got Bayern to a Champions League Final, got Barcelina raping everyone in Europe, got United to more League titles than anyone in the last 20 years. Ignore that none of the three of those best teams in Europe don't play 4-4-2 and go "BACK TO BASICS!" - 4-4-2, fuck the frilly shit out, get the ball in behind, and put em under pressure.
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39973.msg1094768#msg1094768 date=1272457694]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=39973.msg1094767#msg1094767 date=1272457580]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39973.msg1094757#msg1094757 date=1272456765]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=39973.msg1094712#msg1094712 date=1272453255]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39973.msg1094691#msg1094691 date=1272452341]
Whitey summed it up for me. There is no right or wrong way to play, that's what makes football interesting, but the notion that key roles can go out of fashion is nonsense. I would suggest the only key trend in recent time is the popularity of the 4231 system.
[/quote]
I agree Squiggles but with the notable exception of the sweeper, a position rendered extinct by the change of the offside rule.
[/quote]
Interesting one.
The sweeper in the old fashioned sense prospered as the spare man in the back 3 of a 3-5-2. Most sides (us being a pretty good example, Chelsea another, Barca too) play 3-5-2 when in possession - with the defensive midfielder (in Chelsea's case Mikel) dropping alongside the two centre backs. If they drop deep enough, and get the timing right they can take the ball out of defence relatively unchallenged, and in a similar vein to the days of Sammer, etc.
It's not the same, more of an evolution really.
[/quote]
Yup, the bringing-the-ball-out-of-defence role has switched from the sweeper to the DM but the other role of the sweeper, to drop off behind the defensive line ala Baresi, Moore, LeBouef, Hansen etc from goal kicks and long ball clearances in order to clear up flick-ons and catch marrauding wide men in an offside "trap" has largely been rendered inoperable by the offside rule changes.
[/quote]
Of course, because no teams defend with a back 3.
[/quote]
I think we're at crossed purposes due to the fact I haven't mentioned a timeframe. I'm talking abut pre-1990 and when, particularly in the English game, teams used to play with a big forward and a quicker, tricky forward; Toshack & Keegan, Hunt & St. John, Jones & Clarke, Withe & Shaw, Dixon & Speedie, Mariner & Gates etc etc. The best way to combat this when the opposition has the ball in their own half (and about to launch another high ball for the big forward to flick on) was for the defence to play in a line, ensuring the smaller, quicker forward couldn't move ahead of the big forward and the wingers couldn't move to far forward either. Then, at the last second the sweeper would pull back 10 yards enabling him a head start chasing any flick-ons or to get across and cover the full backs if either wing position came into play.
The better the timing and positioning of the sweeper obviously the more effective they were (Baresi was the best I've ever seen). Regularly Baresi would pull back 10 yards early and a winger would be tempted to take advantage of this by pushing on past the rest of the back line - Baresi would simply wait until the ball was just about to be played and push up catching the winger offside.
Obviously now wingers can be in offside positions but not be deemed offside because they're not interfering with play which make the offside "trap" ( a term in regular use until the 1990's) hard to work. Added to this teams don't play such long ball tactics as often these days although Stoke & Bolton are notable exceptions.
R.I.P The Sweeper.
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=39973.msg1094767#msg1094767 date=1272457580]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39973.msg1094757#msg1094757 date=1272456765]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=39973.msg1094712#msg1094712 date=1272453255]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39973.msg1094691#msg1094691 date=1272452341]
Whitey summed it up for me. There is no right or wrong way to play, that's what makes football interesting, but the notion that key roles can go out of fashion is nonsense. I would suggest the only key trend in recent time is the popularity of the 4231 system.
[/quote]
I agree Squiggles but with the notable exception of the sweeper, a position rendered extinct by the change of the offside rule.
[/quote]
Interesting one.
The sweeper in the old fashioned sense prospered as the spare man in the back 3 of a 3-5-2. Most sides (us being a pretty good example, Chelsea another, Barca too) play 3-5-2 when in possession - with the defensive midfielder (in Chelsea's case Mikel) dropping alongside the two centre backs. If they drop deep enough, and get the timing right they can take the ball out of defence relatively unchallenged, and in a similar vein to the days of Sammer, etc.
It's not the same, more of an evolution really.
[/quote]
Yup, the bringing-the-ball-out-of-defence role has switched from the sweeper to the DM but the other role of the sweeper, to drop off behind the defensive line ala Baresi, Moore, LeBouef, Hansen etc from goal kicks and long ball clearances in order to clear up flick-ons and catch marrauding wide men in an offside "trap" has largely been rendered inoperable by the offside rule changes.
[/quote]
Of course, because no teams defend with a back 3.
[/quote]
I think we're at crossed purposes due to the fact I haven't mentioned a timeframe. I'm talking abut pre-1990 and when, particularly in the English game, teams used to play with a big forward and a quicker, tricky forward; Toshack & Keegan, Hunt & St. John, Jones & Clarke, Withe & Shaw, Dixon & Speedie, Mariner & Gates etc etc. The best way to combat this when the opposition has the ball in their own half (and about to launch another high ball for the big forward to flick on) was for the defence to play in a line, ensuring the smaller, quicker forward couldn't move ahead of the big forward and the wingers couldn't move to far forward either. Then, at the last second the sweeper would pull back 10 yards enabling him a head start chasing any flick-ons or to get across and cover the full backs if either wing position came into play.
The better the timing and positioning of the sweeper obviously the more effective they were (Baresi was the best I've ever seen). Regularly Baresi would pull back 10 yards early and a winger would be tempted to take advantage of this by pushing on past the rest of the back line - Baresi would simply wait until the ball was just about to be played and push up catching the winger offside.
Obviously now wingers can be in offside positions but not be deemed offside because they're not interfering with play which make the offside "trap" ( a term in regular use until the 1990's) hard to work. Added to this teams don't play such long ball tactics as often these days although Stoke & Bolton are notable exceptions.
R.I.P The Sweeper.
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=39973.msg1094783#msg1094783 date=1272458296]
Not really 'shit' or 'upsetting' to be quite honest
Mildly amusing and diverting, maybe
[/quote]
Bit of a limp effort in this thread from you Bren. A couple of pokes to kick it off, then zero reply or counter-argument when it's put to you that you haven't got a fucking clue what you're on about.
Not really 'shit' or 'upsetting' to be quite honest
Mildly amusing and diverting, maybe
[/quote]
Bit of a limp effort in this thread from you Bren. A couple of pokes to kick it off, then zero reply or counter-argument when it's put to you that you haven't got a fucking clue what you're on about.
Heh, get the ball in behind still makes me laugh
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=39973.msg1094795#msg1094795 date=1272458943]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39973.msg1094768#msg1094768 date=1272457694]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=39973.msg1094767#msg1094767 date=1272457580]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39973.msg1094757#msg1094757 date=1272456765]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=39973.msg1094712#msg1094712 date=1272453255]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39973.msg1094691#msg1094691 date=1272452341]
Whitey summed it up for me. There is no right or wrong way to play, that's what makes football interesting, but the notion that key roles can go out of fashion is nonsense. I would suggest the only key trend in recent time is the popularity of the 4231 system.
[/quote]
I agree Squiggles but with the notable exception of the sweeper, a position rendered extinct by the change of the offside rule.
[/quote]
Interesting one.
The sweeper in the old fashioned sense prospered as the spare man in the back 3 of a 3-5-2. Most sides (us being a pretty good example, Chelsea another, Barca too) play 3-5-2 when in possession - with the defensive midfielder (in Chelsea's case Mikel) dropping alongside the two centre backs. If they drop deep enough, and get the timing right they can take the ball out of defence relatively unchallenged, and in a similar vein to the days of Sammer, etc.
It's not the same, more of an evolution really.
[/quote]
Yup, the bringing-the-ball-out-of-defence role has switched from the sweeper to the DM but the other role of the sweeper, to drop off behind the defensive line ala Baresi, Moore, LeBouef, Hansen etc from goal kicks and long ball clearances in order to clear up flick-ons and catch marrauding wide men in an offside "trap" has largely been rendered inoperable by the offside rule changes.
[/quote]
Of course, because no teams defend with a back 3.
[/quote]
I think we're at crossed purposes due to the fact I haven't mentioned a timeframe. I'm talking abut pre-1990 and when, particularly in the English game, teams used to play with a big forward and a quicker, tricky forward; Toshack & Keegan, Hunt & St. John, Jones & Clarke, Withe & Shaw, Dixon & Speedie, Mariner & Gates etc etc. The best way to combat this when the opposition has the ball in their own half (and about to launch another high ball for the big forward to flick on) was for the defence to play in a line, ensuring the smaller, quicker forward couldn't move ahead of the big forward and the wingers couldn't move to far forward either. Then, at the last second the sweeper would pull back 10 yards enabling him a head start chasing any flick-ons or to get across and cover the full backs if either wing position came into play.
The better the timing and positioning of the sweeper obviously the more effective they were (Baresi was the best I've ever seen). Regularly Baresi would pull back 10 yards early and a winger would be tempted to take advantage of this by pushing on past the rest of the back line - Baresi would simply wait until the ball was just about to be played and push up catching the winger offside.
Obviously now wingers can be in offside positions but not be deemed offside because they're not interfering with play which make the offside "trap" ( a term in regular use until the 1990's) hard to work. Added to this teams don't play such long ball tactics as often these days although Stoke & Bolton are notable exceptions.
R.I.P The Sweeper.
[/quote]
I'm with you mate.
The style of defending or 'sweepign' you mentioned is still utilised in lower leagues, and amateur football all acorss Britan every weekend. St. Ledger used to do it pretty effectively for Posh a few years back as an example.
I agree with the rest.
Of course, you could argue that the spare centre-back (there's always one when you're playing against a 4-2-3-1/4-5-1) has become a sweeper of sorts, given that he's the only player on the pithc without a direct opponent. Agger's pretty effective for us in this role, and is also a pretty obvious reason why we struggle to build effectively from the back when he's out. Vermaelen, King, and the best example of the lot - Pique at Bacra - being some others.
Even that trend's changing slightly too given managers concersn over leaving only one centre back back defending whilst the other marauds forward with the ball, hence... the DM dropping back to do the role and leave the two centre backs where they are. Arsenal are a great example in how they use Song in this role.
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39973.msg1094768#msg1094768 date=1272457694]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=39973.msg1094767#msg1094767 date=1272457580]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39973.msg1094757#msg1094757 date=1272456765]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=39973.msg1094712#msg1094712 date=1272453255]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39973.msg1094691#msg1094691 date=1272452341]
Whitey summed it up for me. There is no right or wrong way to play, that's what makes football interesting, but the notion that key roles can go out of fashion is nonsense. I would suggest the only key trend in recent time is the popularity of the 4231 system.
[/quote]
I agree Squiggles but with the notable exception of the sweeper, a position rendered extinct by the change of the offside rule.
[/quote]
Interesting one.
The sweeper in the old fashioned sense prospered as the spare man in the back 3 of a 3-5-2. Most sides (us being a pretty good example, Chelsea another, Barca too) play 3-5-2 when in possession - with the defensive midfielder (in Chelsea's case Mikel) dropping alongside the two centre backs. If they drop deep enough, and get the timing right they can take the ball out of defence relatively unchallenged, and in a similar vein to the days of Sammer, etc.
It's not the same, more of an evolution really.
[/quote]
Yup, the bringing-the-ball-out-of-defence role has switched from the sweeper to the DM but the other role of the sweeper, to drop off behind the defensive line ala Baresi, Moore, LeBouef, Hansen etc from goal kicks and long ball clearances in order to clear up flick-ons and catch marrauding wide men in an offside "trap" has largely been rendered inoperable by the offside rule changes.
[/quote]
Of course, because no teams defend with a back 3.
[/quote]
I think we're at crossed purposes due to the fact I haven't mentioned a timeframe. I'm talking abut pre-1990 and when, particularly in the English game, teams used to play with a big forward and a quicker, tricky forward; Toshack & Keegan, Hunt & St. John, Jones & Clarke, Withe & Shaw, Dixon & Speedie, Mariner & Gates etc etc. The best way to combat this when the opposition has the ball in their own half (and about to launch another high ball for the big forward to flick on) was for the defence to play in a line, ensuring the smaller, quicker forward couldn't move ahead of the big forward and the wingers couldn't move to far forward either. Then, at the last second the sweeper would pull back 10 yards enabling him a head start chasing any flick-ons or to get across and cover the full backs if either wing position came into play.
The better the timing and positioning of the sweeper obviously the more effective they were (Baresi was the best I've ever seen). Regularly Baresi would pull back 10 yards early and a winger would be tempted to take advantage of this by pushing on past the rest of the back line - Baresi would simply wait until the ball was just about to be played and push up catching the winger offside.
Obviously now wingers can be in offside positions but not be deemed offside because they're not interfering with play which make the offside "trap" ( a term in regular use until the 1990's) hard to work. Added to this teams don't play such long ball tactics as often these days although Stoke & Bolton are notable exceptions.
R.I.P The Sweeper.
[/quote]
I'm with you mate.
The style of defending or 'sweepign' you mentioned is still utilised in lower leagues, and amateur football all acorss Britan every weekend. St. Ledger used to do it pretty effectively for Posh a few years back as an example.
I agree with the rest.
Of course, you could argue that the spare centre-back (there's always one when you're playing against a 4-2-3-1/4-5-1) has become a sweeper of sorts, given that he's the only player on the pithc without a direct opponent. Agger's pretty effective for us in this role, and is also a pretty obvious reason why we struggle to build effectively from the back when he's out. Vermaelen, King, and the best example of the lot - Pique at Bacra - being some others.
Even that trend's changing slightly too given managers concersn over leaving only one centre back back defending whilst the other marauds forward with the ball, hence... the DM dropping back to do the role and leave the two centre backs where they are. Arsenal are a great example in how they use Song in this role.
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=39973.msg1094798#msg1094798 date=1272459170]
Heh, get the ball in behind still makes me laugh
[/quote]
Lech's effort in the 'How do we win at Old Trafford' thread is equally good:
"We need to play higher up the pitch and pin them back."
And that was it. No suggestion or explanation as to how we might do that (why don't all the other teams try that revolutionary tactic at OT the fools!), just that.
Heh, get the ball in behind still makes me laugh
[/quote]
Lech's effort in the 'How do we win at Old Trafford' thread is equally good:
"We need to play higher up the pitch and pin them back."
And that was it. No suggestion or explanation as to how we might do that (why don't all the other teams try that revolutionary tactic at OT the fools!), just that.
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39973.msg1094804#msg1094804 date=1272459433]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=39973.msg1094795#msg1094795 date=1272458943]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39973.msg1094768#msg1094768 date=1272457694]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=39973.msg1094767#msg1094767 date=1272457580]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39973.msg1094757#msg1094757 date=1272456765]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=39973.msg1094712#msg1094712 date=1272453255]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39973.msg1094691#msg1094691 date=1272452341]
Whitey summed it up for me. There is no right or wrong way to play, that's what makes football interesting, but the notion that key roles can go out of fashion is nonsense. I would suggest the only key trend in recent time is the popularity of the 4231 system.
[/quote]
I agree Squiggles but with the notable exception of the sweeper, a position rendered extinct by the change of the offside rule.
[/quote]
Interesting one.
The sweeper in the old fashioned sense prospered as the spare man in the back 3 of a 3-5-2. Most sides (us being a pretty good example, Chelsea another, Barca too) play 3-5-2 when in possession - with the defensive midfielder (in Chelsea's case Mikel) dropping alongside the two centre backs. If they drop deep enough, and get the timing right they can take the ball out of defence relatively unchallenged, and in a similar vein to the days of Sammer, etc.
It's not the same, more of an evolution really.
[/quote]
Yup, the bringing-the-ball-out-of-defence role has switched from the sweeper to the DM but the other role of the sweeper, to drop off behind the defensive line ala Baresi, Moore, LeBouef, Hansen etc from goal kicks and long ball clearances in order to clear up flick-ons and catch marrauding wide men in an offside "trap" has largely been rendered inoperable by the offside rule changes.
[/quote]
Of course, because no teams defend with a back 3.
[/quote]
I think we're at crossed purposes due to the fact I haven't mentioned a timeframe. I'm talking abut pre-1990 and when, particularly in the English game, teams used to play with a big forward and a quicker, tricky forward; Toshack & Keegan, Hunt & St. John, Jones & Clarke, Withe & Shaw, Dixon & Speedie, Mariner & Gates etc etc. The best way to combat this when the opposition has the ball in their own half (and about to launch another high ball for the big forward to flick on) was for the defence to play in a line, ensuring the smaller, quicker forward couldn't move ahead of the big forward and the wingers couldn't move to far forward either. Then, at the last second the sweeper would pull back 10 yards enabling him a head start chasing any flick-ons or to get across and cover the full backs if either wing position came into play.
The better the timing and positioning of the sweeper obviously the more effective they were (Baresi was the best I've ever seen). Regularly Baresi would pull back 10 yards early and a winger would be tempted to take advantage of this by pushing on past the rest of the back line - Baresi would simply wait until the ball was just about to be played and push up catching the winger offside.
Obviously now wingers can be in offside positions but not be deemed offside because they're not interfering with play which make the offside "trap" ( a term in regular use until the 1990's) hard to work. Added to this teams don't play such long ball tactics as often these days although Stoke & Bolton are notable exceptions.
R.I.P The Sweeper.
[/quote]
I'm with you mate.
The style of defending or 'sweepign' you mentioned is still utilised in lower leagues, and amateur football all acorss Britan every weekend. St. Ledger used to do it pretty effectively for Posh a few years back as an example.
I agree with the rest.
Of course, you could argue that the spare centre-back (there's always one when you're playing against a 4-2-3-1/4-5-1) has become a sweeper of sorts, given that he's the only player on the pithc without a direct opponent. Agger's pretty effective for us in this role, and is also a pretty obvious reason why we struggle to build effectively from the back when he's out. Vermaelen, King, and the best example of the lot - Pique at Bacra - being some others.
[/quote]
The other difference between the players you mention and the Sweepers I mentioned is that Baresi, Hansen etc sometimes left the pitch without a bead of sweat. Top quality defenders like them took advantage of the back-pass and the strict offside rules and could comfortably control a game whereas todays defenders have to actually work 🙂
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=39973.msg1094795#msg1094795 date=1272458943]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39973.msg1094768#msg1094768 date=1272457694]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=39973.msg1094767#msg1094767 date=1272457580]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39973.msg1094757#msg1094757 date=1272456765]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=39973.msg1094712#msg1094712 date=1272453255]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39973.msg1094691#msg1094691 date=1272452341]
Whitey summed it up for me. There is no right or wrong way to play, that's what makes football interesting, but the notion that key roles can go out of fashion is nonsense. I would suggest the only key trend in recent time is the popularity of the 4231 system.
[/quote]
I agree Squiggles but with the notable exception of the sweeper, a position rendered extinct by the change of the offside rule.
[/quote]
Interesting one.
The sweeper in the old fashioned sense prospered as the spare man in the back 3 of a 3-5-2. Most sides (us being a pretty good example, Chelsea another, Barca too) play 3-5-2 when in possession - with the defensive midfielder (in Chelsea's case Mikel) dropping alongside the two centre backs. If they drop deep enough, and get the timing right they can take the ball out of defence relatively unchallenged, and in a similar vein to the days of Sammer, etc.
It's not the same, more of an evolution really.
[/quote]
Yup, the bringing-the-ball-out-of-defence role has switched from the sweeper to the DM but the other role of the sweeper, to drop off behind the defensive line ala Baresi, Moore, LeBouef, Hansen etc from goal kicks and long ball clearances in order to clear up flick-ons and catch marrauding wide men in an offside "trap" has largely been rendered inoperable by the offside rule changes.
[/quote]
Of course, because no teams defend with a back 3.
[/quote]
I think we're at crossed purposes due to the fact I haven't mentioned a timeframe. I'm talking abut pre-1990 and when, particularly in the English game, teams used to play with a big forward and a quicker, tricky forward; Toshack & Keegan, Hunt & St. John, Jones & Clarke, Withe & Shaw, Dixon & Speedie, Mariner & Gates etc etc. The best way to combat this when the opposition has the ball in their own half (and about to launch another high ball for the big forward to flick on) was for the defence to play in a line, ensuring the smaller, quicker forward couldn't move ahead of the big forward and the wingers couldn't move to far forward either. Then, at the last second the sweeper would pull back 10 yards enabling him a head start chasing any flick-ons or to get across and cover the full backs if either wing position came into play.
The better the timing and positioning of the sweeper obviously the more effective they were (Baresi was the best I've ever seen). Regularly Baresi would pull back 10 yards early and a winger would be tempted to take advantage of this by pushing on past the rest of the back line - Baresi would simply wait until the ball was just about to be played and push up catching the winger offside.
Obviously now wingers can be in offside positions but not be deemed offside because they're not interfering with play which make the offside "trap" ( a term in regular use until the 1990's) hard to work. Added to this teams don't play such long ball tactics as often these days although Stoke & Bolton are notable exceptions.
R.I.P The Sweeper.
[/quote]
I'm with you mate.
The style of defending or 'sweepign' you mentioned is still utilised in lower leagues, and amateur football all acorss Britan every weekend. St. Ledger used to do it pretty effectively for Posh a few years back as an example.
I agree with the rest.
Of course, you could argue that the spare centre-back (there's always one when you're playing against a 4-2-3-1/4-5-1) has become a sweeper of sorts, given that he's the only player on the pithc without a direct opponent. Agger's pretty effective for us in this role, and is also a pretty obvious reason why we struggle to build effectively from the back when he's out. Vermaelen, King, and the best example of the lot - Pique at Bacra - being some others.
[/quote]
The other difference between the players you mention and the Sweepers I mentioned is that Baresi, Hansen etc sometimes left the pitch without a bead of sweat. Top quality defenders like them took advantage of the back-pass and the strict offside rules and could comfortably control a game whereas todays defenders have to actually work 🙂
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=39973.msg1094815#msg1094815 date=1272459961]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39973.msg1094804#msg1094804 date=1272459433]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=39973.msg1094795#msg1094795 date=1272458943]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39973.msg1094768#msg1094768 date=1272457694]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=39973.msg1094767#msg1094767 date=1272457580]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39973.msg1094757#msg1094757 date=1272456765]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=39973.msg1094712#msg1094712 date=1272453255]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39973.msg1094691#msg1094691 date=1272452341]
Whitey summed it up for me. There is no right or wrong way to play, that's what makes football interesting, but the notion that key roles can go out of fashion is nonsense. I would suggest the only key trend in recent time is the popularity of the 4231 system.
[/quote]
I agree Squiggles but with the notable exception of the sweeper, a position rendered extinct by the change of the offside rule.
[/quote]
Interesting one.
The sweeper in the old fashioned sense prospered as the spare man in the back 3 of a 3-5-2. Most sides (us being a pretty good example, Chelsea another, Barca too) play 3-5-2 when in possession - with the defensive midfielder (in Chelsea's case Mikel) dropping alongside the two centre backs. If they drop deep enough, and get the timing right they can take the ball out of defence relatively unchallenged, and in a similar vein to the days of Sammer, etc.
It's not the same, more of an evolution really.
[/quote]
Yup, the bringing-the-ball-out-of-defence role has switched from the sweeper to the DM but the other role of the sweeper, to drop off behind the defensive line ala Baresi, Moore, LeBouef, Hansen etc from goal kicks and long ball clearances in order to clear up flick-ons and catch marrauding wide men in an offside "trap" has largely been rendered inoperable by the offside rule changes.
[/quote]
Of course, because no teams defend with a back 3.
[/quote]
I think we're at crossed purposes due to the fact I haven't mentioned a timeframe. I'm talking abut pre-1990 and when, particularly in the English game, teams used to play with a big forward and a quicker, tricky forward; Toshack & Keegan, Hunt & St. John, Jones & Clarke, Withe & Shaw, Dixon & Speedie, Mariner & Gates etc etc. The best way to combat this when the opposition has the ball in their own half (and about to launch another high ball for the big forward to flick on) was for the defence to play in a line, ensuring the smaller, quicker forward couldn't move ahead of the big forward and the wingers couldn't move to far forward either. Then, at the last second the sweeper would pull back 10 yards enabling him a head start chasing any flick-ons or to get across and cover the full backs if either wing position came into play.
The better the timing and positioning of the sweeper obviously the more effective they were (Baresi was the best I've ever seen). Regularly Baresi would pull back 10 yards early and a winger would be tempted to take advantage of this by pushing on past the rest of the back line - Baresi would simply wait until the ball was just about to be played and push up catching the winger offside.
Obviously now wingers can be in offside positions but not be deemed offside because they're not interfering with play which make the offside "trap" ( a term in regular use until the 1990's) hard to work. Added to this teams don't play such long ball tactics as often these days although Stoke & Bolton are notable exceptions.
R.I.P The Sweeper.
[/quote]
I'm with you mate.
The style of defending or 'sweepign' you mentioned is still utilised in lower leagues, and amateur football all acorss Britan every weekend. St. Ledger used to do it pretty effectively for Posh a few years back as an example.
I agree with the rest.
Of course, you could argue that the spare centre-back (there's always one when you're playing against a 4-2-3-1/4-5-1) has become a sweeper of sorts, given that he's the only player on the pithc without a direct opponent. Agger's pretty effective for us in this role, and is also a pretty obvious reason why we struggle to build effectively from the back when he's out. Vermaelen, King, and the best example of the lot - Pique at Bacra - being some others.
[/quote]
The other difference between the players you mention and the Sweepers I mentioned is that Baresi, Hansen etc sometimes left the pitch without a bead of sweat. Top quality defenders like them took advantage of the back-pass and the strict offside rules and could comfortably control a game whereas todays defenders have to actually work 🙂
[/quote]
Heh, very true.
The backpass rule was the best thing to ever happen to football.
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39973.msg1094804#msg1094804 date=1272459433]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=39973.msg1094795#msg1094795 date=1272458943]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39973.msg1094768#msg1094768 date=1272457694]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=39973.msg1094767#msg1094767 date=1272457580]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39973.msg1094757#msg1094757 date=1272456765]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=39973.msg1094712#msg1094712 date=1272453255]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39973.msg1094691#msg1094691 date=1272452341]
Whitey summed it up for me. There is no right or wrong way to play, that's what makes football interesting, but the notion that key roles can go out of fashion is nonsense. I would suggest the only key trend in recent time is the popularity of the 4231 system.
[/quote]
I agree Squiggles but with the notable exception of the sweeper, a position rendered extinct by the change of the offside rule.
[/quote]
Interesting one.
The sweeper in the old fashioned sense prospered as the spare man in the back 3 of a 3-5-2. Most sides (us being a pretty good example, Chelsea another, Barca too) play 3-5-2 when in possession - with the defensive midfielder (in Chelsea's case Mikel) dropping alongside the two centre backs. If they drop deep enough, and get the timing right they can take the ball out of defence relatively unchallenged, and in a similar vein to the days of Sammer, etc.
It's not the same, more of an evolution really.
[/quote]
Yup, the bringing-the-ball-out-of-defence role has switched from the sweeper to the DM but the other role of the sweeper, to drop off behind the defensive line ala Baresi, Moore, LeBouef, Hansen etc from goal kicks and long ball clearances in order to clear up flick-ons and catch marrauding wide men in an offside "trap" has largely been rendered inoperable by the offside rule changes.
[/quote]
Of course, because no teams defend with a back 3.
[/quote]
I think we're at crossed purposes due to the fact I haven't mentioned a timeframe. I'm talking abut pre-1990 and when, particularly in the English game, teams used to play with a big forward and a quicker, tricky forward; Toshack & Keegan, Hunt & St. John, Jones & Clarke, Withe & Shaw, Dixon & Speedie, Mariner & Gates etc etc. The best way to combat this when the opposition has the ball in their own half (and about to launch another high ball for the big forward to flick on) was for the defence to play in a line, ensuring the smaller, quicker forward couldn't move ahead of the big forward and the wingers couldn't move to far forward either. Then, at the last second the sweeper would pull back 10 yards enabling him a head start chasing any flick-ons or to get across and cover the full backs if either wing position came into play.
The better the timing and positioning of the sweeper obviously the more effective they were (Baresi was the best I've ever seen). Regularly Baresi would pull back 10 yards early and a winger would be tempted to take advantage of this by pushing on past the rest of the back line - Baresi would simply wait until the ball was just about to be played and push up catching the winger offside.
Obviously now wingers can be in offside positions but not be deemed offside because they're not interfering with play which make the offside "trap" ( a term in regular use until the 1990's) hard to work. Added to this teams don't play such long ball tactics as often these days although Stoke & Bolton are notable exceptions.
R.I.P The Sweeper.
[/quote]
I'm with you mate.
The style of defending or 'sweepign' you mentioned is still utilised in lower leagues, and amateur football all acorss Britan every weekend. St. Ledger used to do it pretty effectively for Posh a few years back as an example.
I agree with the rest.
Of course, you could argue that the spare centre-back (there's always one when you're playing against a 4-2-3-1/4-5-1) has become a sweeper of sorts, given that he's the only player on the pithc without a direct opponent. Agger's pretty effective for us in this role, and is also a pretty obvious reason why we struggle to build effectively from the back when he's out. Vermaelen, King, and the best example of the lot - Pique at Bacra - being some others.
[/quote]
The other difference between the players you mention and the Sweepers I mentioned is that Baresi, Hansen etc sometimes left the pitch without a bead of sweat. Top quality defenders like them took advantage of the back-pass and the strict offside rules and could comfortably control a game whereas todays defenders have to actually work 🙂
[/quote]
Heh, very true.
The backpass rule was the best thing to ever happen to football.
Chelsea, Barcelona, ManU etc.. play with 2 strikers
Xavi-Iniesta are not defensive midfielders...
Drogba-Anelka, Rooney-Tevez, Ibrahinovic/Eto'o - Messi
You're often angry with Torres' behaviour and rightly so, but the main reason is he's completely alone up front.
All the teams above have an attacking midfielder behind 2 strikers, they have a go at other teams and often grab late wins when needed with this attacking mentality.
Xavi-Iniesta are not defensive midfielders...
Drogba-Anelka, Rooney-Tevez, Ibrahinovic/Eto'o - Messi
You're often angry with Torres' behaviour and rightly so, but the main reason is he's completely alone up front.
All the teams above have an attacking midfielder behind 2 strikers, they have a go at other teams and often grab late wins when needed with this attacking mentality.
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39973.msg1094790#msg1094790 date=1272458570]
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=39973.msg1094784#msg1094784 date=1272458322]
Mascher-Gerrard in the middle in every game.
Back to basics, 4-4-2. Pacy wingers and Gerrard behind 2 strikers.
Its not rocket science really.
[/quote]
That's the stuff Lech! Fuck all this fancy tactical bollocks that's got Bayern to a Champions League Final, got Barcelina raping everyone in Europe, got United to more League titles than anyone in the last 20 years. Ignore that none of the three of those best teams in Europe don't play 4-4-2 and go "BACK TO BASICS!" - 4-4-2, fuck the frilly shit out, get the ball in behind, and put em under pressure.
[/quote]
LOL
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=39973.msg1094784#msg1094784 date=1272458322]
Mascher-Gerrard in the middle in every game.
Back to basics, 4-4-2. Pacy wingers and Gerrard behind 2 strikers.
Its not rocket science really.
[/quote]
That's the stuff Lech! Fuck all this fancy tactical bollocks that's got Bayern to a Champions League Final, got Barcelina raping everyone in Europe, got United to more League titles than anyone in the last 20 years. Ignore that none of the three of those best teams in Europe don't play 4-4-2 and go "BACK TO BASICS!" - 4-4-2, fuck the frilly shit out, get the ball in behind, and put em under pressure.
[/quote]
LOL
WOW, Ryan and Brendan are at war, how long has that been going on?
Anyway, Masher does a great job at most of his trade but to be truly world class like Essien he has to add more goals and assists to his game. No midfielder should contribute as little as masher going forward.
Didi scored some good goals for us, Fletcher dips in for UTD, Keane and Viera used to ETC
Masher is great but the other 5 players in front of him need to make up for his deficiencies and so far we have not been able to do that in enough games when it is tight.
If every midfielder scored 8-10 goals a year what a difference that would make in games where the strikers are tightly marked and getting no change out of the defence.
He is fairly young and can improve, not sure if he will get to Essien's standard though.
Anyway, Masher does a great job at most of his trade but to be truly world class like Essien he has to add more goals and assists to his game. No midfielder should contribute as little as masher going forward.
Didi scored some good goals for us, Fletcher dips in for UTD, Keane and Viera used to ETC
Masher is great but the other 5 players in front of him need to make up for his deficiencies and so far we have not been able to do that in enough games when it is tight.
If every midfielder scored 8-10 goals a year what a difference that would make in games where the strikers are tightly marked and getting no change out of the defence.
He is fairly young and can improve, not sure if he will get to Essien's standard though.
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=39973.msg1094822#msg1094822 date=1272460369]
Chelsea, Barcelona, ManU etc.. play with 2 strikers
Xavi-Iniesta are not defensive midfielders...
Drogba-Anelka, Rooney-Tevez, Ibrahinovic/Eto'o - Messi
You're often angry with Torres' behaviour and rightly so, but the main reason is he's completely alone up front.
All the teams above have an attacking midfielder behind 2 strikers, they have a go at other teams and often grab late wins when needed with this attacking mentality.
[/quote]
Chelsea - Anelka plays behind Drogba. Watch them play, it's 4-5-1. Seriously, watch them,
"Barcelona plays with 2 strikers" - They don't. I don't know how else to point this out to you other than... They don't.
United - They only started winning games when they dropped Berbatov. Went to the Emirates with Rooney up front on his own and raped them. Got to the Champions League Final last year without a fucking striker in the team.
Stop. Please please stop.
Chelsea, Barcelona, ManU etc.. play with 2 strikers
Xavi-Iniesta are not defensive midfielders...
Drogba-Anelka, Rooney-Tevez, Ibrahinovic/Eto'o - Messi
You're often angry with Torres' behaviour and rightly so, but the main reason is he's completely alone up front.
All the teams above have an attacking midfielder behind 2 strikers, they have a go at other teams and often grab late wins when needed with this attacking mentality.
[/quote]
Chelsea - Anelka plays behind Drogba. Watch them play, it's 4-5-1. Seriously, watch them,
"Barcelona plays with 2 strikers" - They don't. I don't know how else to point this out to you other than... They don't.
United - They only started winning games when they dropped Berbatov. Went to the Emirates with Rooney up front on his own and raped them. Got to the Champions League Final last year without a fucking striker in the team.
Stop. Please please stop.
Heh, very true.
The backpass rule was the best thing to ever happen to football.
[/quote]
I'm not sure if you're old enough to remember MOTD from the first season the back pass rule came into being......... Hansen had just begun his stint on the MOTD sofa and they asked him after the first games of the season what he thought of the new rule, he was hugely against it! He argued that it wasn't necessary and when the pitches got muddy/wet during the winter months there would be loads of bad injuries to goalkeepers because players would be tackling them as they couldn't pick the ball up. He really was scathing about his dislike of the rule and predicted it would have to be changed back. I've often wondered why they've never shown his critique and asked him to comment further.
The backpass rule was the best thing to ever happen to football.
[/quote]
I'm not sure if you're old enough to remember MOTD from the first season the back pass rule came into being......... Hansen had just begun his stint on the MOTD sofa and they asked him after the first games of the season what he thought of the new rule, he was hugely against it! He argued that it wasn't necessary and when the pitches got muddy/wet during the winter months there would be loads of bad injuries to goalkeepers because players would be tackling them as they couldn't pick the ball up. He really was scathing about his dislike of the rule and predicted it would have to be changed back. I've often wondered why they've never shown his critique and asked him to comment further.
Alonso played beside Masher last year and had about 5 goals between them yet we we're the leagues highest goalscorers.
I don't mind is Masher doesn't springboard attacks if the player beside him can. Lucas hasn't showed us he can as of yet. Xabi could. He was excellent at getting the ball to Gerrard in dangerous positions. Hopefull Aqualani will try perform this role next season as he seems to have an understanding with Gerrard.
I don't mind is Masher doesn't springboard attacks if the player beside him can. Lucas hasn't showed us he can as of yet. Xabi could. He was excellent at getting the ball to Gerrard in dangerous positions. Hopefull Aqualani will try perform this role next season as he seems to have an understanding with Gerrard.
[quote author=ILD link=topic=39973.msg1094830#msg1094830 date=1272460790]
Alonso played beside Masher last year and had about 5 goals between them yet we we're the leagues highest goalscorers.
I don't mind is Masher doesn't springboard attacks if the player beside him can. Lucas hasn't showed us he can as of yet. Xabi could.
[/quote]
Spot on David.
Alonso played beside Masher last year and had about 5 goals between them yet we we're the leagues highest goalscorers.
I don't mind is Masher doesn't springboard attacks if the player beside him can. Lucas hasn't showed us he can as of yet. Xabi could.
[/quote]
Spot on David.
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39973.msg1094827#msg1094827 date=1272460740]
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=39973.msg1094822#msg1094822 date=1272460369]
Chelsea, Barcelona, ManU etc.. play with 2 strikers
Xavi-Iniesta are not defensive midfielders...
Drogba-Anelka, Rooney-Tevez, Ibrahinovic/Eto'o - Messi
You're often angry with Torres' behaviour and rightly so, but the main reason is he's completely alone up front.
All the teams above have an attacking midfielder behind 2 strikers, they have a go at other teams and often grab late wins when needed with this attacking mentality.
[/quote]
Chelsea - Anelka plays behind Drogba. Watch them play, it's 4-5-1. Seriously, watch them,
"Barcelona plays with 2 strikers" - They don't. I don't know how else to point this out to you other than... They don't.
United - They only started winning games when they dropped Berbatov. Went to the Emirates with Rooney up front on his own and raped them. Got to the Champions League Final last year without a fucking striker in the team.
Stop. Please please stop.
[/quote]
Rooney, Tevez, Berbatov and we could argue about Ronaldo
Not strikers?
Anelka is a striker.
Messi and Eto'o are strikers and they played together many times. They often even play with 3 strikers.
We only play with one up front, N'gog sometimes.
Thats why we lost the CL final and the title last year.
Thats my point.
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=39973.msg1094822#msg1094822 date=1272460369]
Chelsea, Barcelona, ManU etc.. play with 2 strikers
Xavi-Iniesta are not defensive midfielders...
Drogba-Anelka, Rooney-Tevez, Ibrahinovic/Eto'o - Messi
You're often angry with Torres' behaviour and rightly so, but the main reason is he's completely alone up front.
All the teams above have an attacking midfielder behind 2 strikers, they have a go at other teams and often grab late wins when needed with this attacking mentality.
[/quote]
Chelsea - Anelka plays behind Drogba. Watch them play, it's 4-5-1. Seriously, watch them,
"Barcelona plays with 2 strikers" - They don't. I don't know how else to point this out to you other than... They don't.
United - They only started winning games when they dropped Berbatov. Went to the Emirates with Rooney up front on his own and raped them. Got to the Champions League Final last year without a fucking striker in the team.
Stop. Please please stop.
[/quote]
Rooney, Tevez, Berbatov and we could argue about Ronaldo
Not strikers?
Anelka is a striker.
Messi and Eto'o are strikers and they played together many times. They often even play with 3 strikers.
We only play with one up front, N'gog sometimes.
Thats why we lost the CL final and the title last year.
Thats my point.
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39973.msg1094833#msg1094833 date=1272460899]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=39973.msg1094830#msg1094830 date=1272460790]
Alonso played beside Masher last year and had about 5 goals between them yet we we're the leagues highest goalscorers.
I don't mind if Masher doesn't springboard attacks if the player beside him can. Lucas hasn't showed us he can as of yet. Xabi could.
[/quote]
Spot on David.
[/quote]
I know your a fan of Lucas Ryan, but do you also see why he isn't suited to partner Masher? We need a change next season and cannot start next season with them as a pair. Not saying Aqualani is the answer but Lucas isn't either.
[quote author=ILD link=topic=39973.msg1094830#msg1094830 date=1272460790]
Alonso played beside Masher last year and had about 5 goals between them yet we we're the leagues highest goalscorers.
I don't mind if Masher doesn't springboard attacks if the player beside him can. Lucas hasn't showed us he can as of yet. Xabi could.
[/quote]
Spot on David.
[/quote]
I know your a fan of Lucas Ryan, but do you also see why he isn't suited to partner Masher? We need a change next season and cannot start next season with them as a pair. Not saying Aqualani is the answer but Lucas isn't either.
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=39973.msg1094834#msg1094834 date=1272461222]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39973.msg1094827#msg1094827 date=1272460740]
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=39973.msg1094822#msg1094822 date=1272460369]
Chelsea, Barcelona, ManU etc.. play with 2 strikers
Xavi-Iniesta are not defensive midfielders...
Drogba-Anelka, Rooney-Tevez, Ibrahinovic/Eto'o - Messi
You're often angry with Torres' behaviour and rightly so, but the main reason is he's completely alone up front.
All the teams above have an attacking midfielder behind 2 strikers, they have a go at other teams and often grab late wins when needed with this attacking mentality.
[/quote]
Chelsea - Anelka plays behind Drogba. Watch them play, it's 4-5-1. Seriously, watch them,
"Barcelona plays with 2 strikers" - They don't. I don't know how else to point this out to you other than... They don't.
United - They only started winning games when they dropped Berbatov. Went to the Emirates with Rooney up front on his own and raped them. Got to the Champions League Final last year without a fucking striker in the team.
Stop. Please please stop.
[/quote]
Rooney, Tevez, Berbatov and we could argue about Ronaldo
Not strikers?
Anelka is a striker.
Messi and Eto'o are strikers and they played together many times. They often even play with 3 strikers.
We only play with one up front, N'gog sometimes.
Thats why we lost the CL final and the title last year.
Thats my point.
[/quote]
Define striker. Sounds to me that by your logic, Kuyt is a striker. There, we play with two now.
If we had used Keane in the exact same role as Gerrard last season, would we then have played with two up front?
Your point is poo.
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39973.msg1094827#msg1094827 date=1272460740]
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=39973.msg1094822#msg1094822 date=1272460369]
Chelsea, Barcelona, ManU etc.. play with 2 strikers
Xavi-Iniesta are not defensive midfielders...
Drogba-Anelka, Rooney-Tevez, Ibrahinovic/Eto'o - Messi
You're often angry with Torres' behaviour and rightly so, but the main reason is he's completely alone up front.
All the teams above have an attacking midfielder behind 2 strikers, they have a go at other teams and often grab late wins when needed with this attacking mentality.
[/quote]
Chelsea - Anelka plays behind Drogba. Watch them play, it's 4-5-1. Seriously, watch them,
"Barcelona plays with 2 strikers" - They don't. I don't know how else to point this out to you other than... They don't.
United - They only started winning games when they dropped Berbatov. Went to the Emirates with Rooney up front on his own and raped them. Got to the Champions League Final last year without a fucking striker in the team.
Stop. Please please stop.
[/quote]
Rooney, Tevez, Berbatov and we could argue about Ronaldo
Not strikers?
Anelka is a striker.
Messi and Eto'o are strikers and they played together many times. They often even play with 3 strikers.
We only play with one up front, N'gog sometimes.
Thats why we lost the CL final and the title last year.
Thats my point.
[/quote]
Define striker. Sounds to me that by your logic, Kuyt is a striker. There, we play with two now.
If we had used Keane in the exact same role as Gerrard last season, would we then have played with two up front?
Your point is poo.
Eh?
You don't need my help to make yourself look absurd Ryan
You're an expert in it.
[quote author=Mamma Mia link=topic=39973.msg1094838#msg1094838 date=1272461982]
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=39973.msg1094834#msg1094834 date=1272461222]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39973.msg1094827#msg1094827 date=1272460740]
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=39973.msg1094822#msg1094822 date=1272460369]
Chelsea, Barcelona, ManU etc.. play with 2 strikers
Xavi-Iniesta are not defensive midfielders...
Drogba-Anelka, Rooney-Tevez, Ibrahinovic/Eto'o - Messi
You're often angry with Torres' behaviour and rightly so, but the main reason is he's completely alone up front.
All the teams above have an attacking midfielder behind 2 strikers, they have a go at other teams and often grab late wins when needed with this attacking mentality.
[/quote]
Chelsea - Anelka plays behind Drogba. Watch them play, it's 4-5-1. Seriously, watch them,
"Barcelona plays with 2 strikers" - They don't. I don't know how else to point this out to you other than... They don't.
United - They only started winning games when they dropped Berbatov. Went to the Emirates with Rooney up front on his own and raped them. Got to the Champions League Final last year without a fucking striker in the team.
Stop. Please please stop.
[/quote]
Rooney, Tevez, Berbatov and we could argue about Ronaldo
Not strikers?
Anelka is a striker.
Messi and Eto'o are strikers and they played together many times. They often even play with 3 strikers.
We only play with one up front, N'gog sometimes.
Thats why we lost the CL final and the title last year.
Thats my point.
[/quote]
Define striker. Sounds to me that by your logic, Kuyt is a striker. There, we play with two now.
If we had used Keane in the exact same role as Gerrard last season, would we then have played with two up front?
Your point is poo.
[/quote]
Gerrard was playing as a striker at the end of the season last year. Yet he is not a striker.
Kuyt is the epitome of Rafa's failure.
Playing players out of position, playing him at RM, RW, alone up front when he's clearly at his best in a striking partnership.
Crouch was scoring 2 in the week in CL tie, Rafa would play the dreadful Kuyt in the following league match.
Again its not rocket science..Anelka, Tevez, Berbatov are strikers, even though they play slightly behind the other striker, the fact remains they are strikers. To say Chelsea play a 4-5-1 and making comprisons with us is ridiculous. The difference between their system and ours is obvious.
A football specialist like you should be capable of seeing it.
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=39973.msg1094834#msg1094834 date=1272461222]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39973.msg1094827#msg1094827 date=1272460740]
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=39973.msg1094822#msg1094822 date=1272460369]
Chelsea, Barcelona, ManU etc.. play with 2 strikers
Xavi-Iniesta are not defensive midfielders...
Drogba-Anelka, Rooney-Tevez, Ibrahinovic/Eto'o - Messi
You're often angry with Torres' behaviour and rightly so, but the main reason is he's completely alone up front.
All the teams above have an attacking midfielder behind 2 strikers, they have a go at other teams and often grab late wins when needed with this attacking mentality.
[/quote]
Chelsea - Anelka plays behind Drogba. Watch them play, it's 4-5-1. Seriously, watch them,
"Barcelona plays with 2 strikers" - They don't. I don't know how else to point this out to you other than... They don't.
United - They only started winning games when they dropped Berbatov. Went to the Emirates with Rooney up front on his own and raped them. Got to the Champions League Final last year without a fucking striker in the team.
Stop. Please please stop.
[/quote]
Rooney, Tevez, Berbatov and we could argue about Ronaldo
Not strikers?
Anelka is a striker.
Messi and Eto'o are strikers and they played together many times. They often even play with 3 strikers.
We only play with one up front, N'gog sometimes.
Thats why we lost the CL final and the title last year.
Thats my point.
[/quote]
Define striker. Sounds to me that by your logic, Kuyt is a striker. There, we play with two now.
If we had used Keane in the exact same role as Gerrard last season, would we then have played with two up front?
Your point is poo.
[/quote]
Gerrard was playing as a striker at the end of the season last year. Yet he is not a striker.
Kuyt is the epitome of Rafa's failure.
Playing players out of position, playing him at RM, RW, alone up front when he's clearly at his best in a striking partnership.
Crouch was scoring 2 in the week in CL tie, Rafa would play the dreadful Kuyt in the following league match.
Again its not rocket science..Anelka, Tevez, Berbatov are strikers, even though they play slightly behind the other striker, the fact remains they are strikers. To say Chelsea play a 4-5-1 and making comprisons with us is ridiculous. The difference between their system and ours is obvious.
A football specialist like you should be capable of seeing it.
- Status
