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Battle of the Tactical Heavyweights - The Great DM Debate

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manwithnoname

manwithnoname

Bravo old man. Bravo.
Banned
So anyway, while we enjoy the tactical mastery and nous of Ryan O'Tomkins, Times readers can luxuriate in the deep-thinking analyses of Tony Cascarino every Monday, and this article caught my eye:

"Mikel's absence is evidence of Chelsea's great leap forwards"

"Chelsea's 7-0 victory against Stoke was another nail in the coffin of the holding midfield player. It's not a coincidence that they scored so many goals without Mikel in the side.

His type of player was fashionable five years ago but is redundant these days, where everyone needs to contribute something going forward"

So, who is right? O'Tomkins says we need two. Cascarino reckons they're an anachronism, and nobody should have one.

Thoughts please!
 
I don't agree with the fact we need two but I don't ever want to side with Tony Cascarino. He is a moron.
 
It depends I guess. If the '4' upfront are Torres, Messi, C. Ronaldo and Gerrard then I think 2 would be be needed.
 
[quote author=ILD link=topic=39973.msg1094641#msg1094641 date=1272448144]
I don't agree with the fact we need two but I don't ever want to side with Tony Cascarino. He is a moron.
[/quote]

It's funny how these things are cyclical isn't it?

Wingers are either obsolete or vital
Box-to-box players are "a thing of the past" (although admittedly that was an O'Tomkin special, and can be discounted)
All full-backs must now be attacking wing-backs

What's the latest on the "big target man"? They were probably on the way out when Barca didn't have one, but they've brought Ibra now, and Capello likes Heskey, so maybe they're cool again?

It really fucks me off to be honest. All this armchair superfan smuggery and bollocks.

I really like watching good players winning trophies for Liverpool. I tire of the rest of the crap over-analysis that goes with it.
 
Cascarino's articles are exactly what one would expect from a guy named after an extremely powerful laxative. Mikel's played a lot this season and, when he hasn't, either Bollock or Lumpard has sat deeper to compensate.

Having two midfielders sitting deep didn't hurt us when the balance was right, as per last season.
 
[quote author=DHSC link=topic=39973.msg1094648#msg1094648 date=1272448635]
Can't wait for the sweeper system to be back in vogue.
[/quote]

Durrrrrrr!

It's "sweeper-keepers" now, you div
 
Utd never have a dedicated destroyer in the side, although players like Keane, Fletcher and Hargreaves give the midfield plenty of bite. They appear to have more license to roam than in our system.
 
Or the W-M formation. Wonder if there will be any manager with the balls to play that.
 
We need one, maximum, and even he should be able to chip in with his fair share of assists and goals (a la Keane, Vieira, Souness etc)

If there's one downside to Masha's game, it's that he's utterly useless in attack.
 
We've always looked crap and unlikely to score when Rafa has played Mascherano and Lucas together in that role. It seems to me that Mascherano is well capable of doing the job on his own.

When Lucas has been out of the side for whatever reason, we have usually played brighter, more creative football. However, this hasn't made any apparent impression on Rafa who has always reverted to the Mascherano/Lucas arrangement.
 
Firstly, Cascarino is an idiot and one of the worst football tipsters I've ever seen. He gives his tips in the Racing Post every Saturday and nearly always takes an opposing opinion to mine - I make a good profit which suggests he does not.

Secondly Mikel is Chelsea's Lucas, very ordinary footballer and should not get anywhere near a top 4 team.

Thirdly great defensive midfielders like Mascher, Makelele, Essien will never go out of fashion but one per team is enough.

Fourthly Chelsea put 7 past Villa WITH Mikel in the team.
 
[quote author=Terrier link=topic=39973.msg1094658#msg1094658 date=1272449139]
We need one, maximum, and even he should be able to chip in with his fair share of assists and goals (a la Keane, Vieira, Souness etc)

If there's one downside to Masha's game, it's that he's utterly useless in attack.


[/quote]

Yeah. His passing is "patchy" at best and his general ability to "pop up" with the odd vital goal non-existent.
But as a destroyer goes, he's top class.
 
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=39973.msg1094652#msg1094652 date=1272448802]
Utd never have a dedicated destroyer in the side, although players like Keane, Fletcher and Hargreaves give the midfield plenty of bite. They appear to have more license to roam than in our system.
[/quote]

Well, for all the stars Chelsea have signed, Makelele was integral to their success under Mourinho. You have to have that capability in the side in case of need. Whether it has to be a dedicated player that provides it depends on who's available. Masher's so good at that side of the game that, in theory at least (I accept it clearly hasn't happened this season), having him do his thing should free other players to bomb forward. The Mancs clearly hate playing against him BTW.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=39973.msg1094664#msg1094664 date=1272449242]
[quote author=Terrier link=topic=39973.msg1094658#msg1094658 date=1272449139]
We need one, maximum, and even he should be able to chip in with his fair share of assists and goals (a la Keane, Vieira, Souness etc)

If there's one downside to Masha's game, it's that he's utterly useless in attack.


[/quote]

Yeah. His passing is "patchy" at best and his general ability to "pop up" with the odd vital goal non-existent.
But as a destroyer goes, he's top class.
[/quote]

I think we have to look at it in a 'team' context. I wouldnt mind if Masherano doesn't score at all if him just being there allows the rest of the team to attack with the knowledge that he is there to cover all the gaps.
 
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=39973.msg1094662#msg1094662 date=1272449207]
Firstly, Cascarino is an idiot and one of the worst football tipsters I've ever seen. He gives his tips in the Racing Post every Saturday and nearly always takes an opposing opinion to mine - I make a good profit which suggests he does not.

Secondly Mikel is Chelsea's Lucas, very ordinary footballer and should not get anywhere near a top 4 team.

Thirdly great defensive midfielders like Mascher, Makelele, Essien will never go out of fashion but one per team is enough.

Fourthly Chelsea put 7 past Villa WITH Mikel in the team.


[/quote]

Good point.
 
It is all bollocks.

Its about getting the best out of the players at your diposal at the end of the day. Its something we have failed to do this season.

There isn't any system that is the be all and end all.

Yeah fine don't play with any defensive midfielders against Stoke at home and you won't get hurt too much. Try the same away to Arsenal and chances are you will be made to pay for it. Meh.

Some managers like their teams to operate with out and out wingers, other prefer playing wingers on the wrong side so they come inside. Some teams don't even play with wingers. Whats the right answer? The team that wins.

Its finding the most effective system for your players that is most important. Good players make it easier.
 
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=39973.msg1094652#msg1094652 date=1272448802]
Utd never have a dedicated destroyer in the side, although players like Keane, Fletcher and Hargreaves give the midfield plenty of bite. They appear to have more license to roam than in our system.
[/quote]


Keane doesn't qualify as a destroyer?

Then what was he, aside from a cunt?
 
[quote author=Terrier link=topic=39973.msg1094675#msg1094675 date=1272449817]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=39973.msg1094652#msg1094652 date=1272448802]
Utd never have a dedicated destroyer in the side, although players like Keane, Fletcher and Hargreaves give the midfield plenty of bite. They appear to have more license to roam than in our system.
[/quote]


Keane doesn't qualify as a destroyer?

Then what was he, aside from a cunt?
[/quote]

he was more "box-to-box" before age and injury made him sit deeper more often
 
Even then he wasn't a *dedicated* destroyer, i.e.not doing much else. His use of the ball was always good and he remained excellent at getting on the end of attacking moves as well. A Cnut with a capital "C" he certainly was, but he was one heck of a player besides.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=39973.msg1094676#msg1094676 date=1272449926]
[quote author=Terrier link=topic=39973.msg1094675#msg1094675 date=1272449817]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=39973.msg1094652#msg1094652 date=1272448802]
Utd never have a dedicated destroyer in the side, although players like Keane, Fletcher and Hargreaves give the midfield plenty of bite. They appear to have more license to roam than in our system.
[/quote]


Keane doesn't qualify as a destroyer?

Then what was he, aside from a cunt?
[/quote]

he was more "box-to-box" before age and injury made him sit deeper more often
[/quote]

Yup. Keane didn't ply his trade behind the other midfielders covering their attacking forays. Yes, he kicked lumps out of people, but like with Souness, this was just a bonus. He wasn't restricted from bombing forward, and did so regularly.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=39973.msg1094672#msg1094672 date=1272449658]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=39973.msg1094662#msg1094662 date=1272449207]
Firstly, Cascarino is an idiot and one of the worst football tipsters I've ever seen. He gives his tips in the Racing Post every Saturday and nearly always takes an opposing opinion to mine - I make a good profit which suggests he does not.

Secondly Mikel is Chelsea's Lucas, very ordinary footballer and should not get anywhere near a top 4 team.

Thirdly great defensive midfielders like Mascher, Makelele, Essien will never go out of fashion but one per team is enough.

Fourthly Chelsea put 7 past Villa WITH Mikel in the team.


[/quote]

Good pointS.
[/quote]
 
Whitey summed it up for me. There is no right or wrong way to play, that's what makes football interesting, but the notion that key roles can go out of fashion is nonsense. I would suggest the only key trend in recent time is the popularity of the 4231 system.
 
It depends also on the opposition and the style of play that the manager is inclined towards. Rafa is more conservative and tactical, hence more anal about control of the midfield with the 2 DMs. At least in the seasons' past we had Alonso who can do a defensive job and great at launching attacks at the same time. I don't think anyone in the present squad, besides Gerrard, have these attributes. Aquilani's more of an attacking midfield and I feel he lacks that steel (injury playing on his mind?) required of a DM. So Luca's next best. If not, who then? Plessis??!?!
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39973.msg1094691#msg1094691 date=1272452341]
Whitey summed it up for me. There is no right or wrong way to play, that's what makes football interesting, but the notion that key roles can go out of fashion is nonsense. I would suggest the only key trend in recent time is the popularity of the 4231 system.
[/quote]

I agree Squiggles but with the notable exception of the sweeper, a position rendered extinct by the change of the offside rule.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=39973.msg1094639#msg1094639 date=1272448051]
So anyway, while we enjoy the tactical mastery and nous of Ryan O'Tomkins, Times readers can luxuriate in the deep-thinking analyses of Tony Cascarino every Monday, and this article caught my eye:

"Mikel's absence is evidence of Chelsea's great leap forwards"

"Chelsea's 7-0 victory against Stoke was another nail in the coffin of the holding midfield player. It's not a coincidence that they scored so many goals without Mikel in the side.

His type of player was fashionable five years ago but is redundant these days, where everyone needs to contribute something going forward"

So, who is right? O'Tomkins says we need two. Cascarino reckons they're an anachronism, and nobody should have one.

Thoughts please!
[/quote][quote author=Brendan link=topic=39973.msg1094645#msg1094645 date=1272448518]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=39973.msg1094641#msg1094641 date=1272448144]
I don't agree with the fact we need two but I don't ever want to side with Tony Cascarino. He is a moron.
[/quote]

It's funny how these things are cyclical isn't it?

Wingers are either obsolete or vital
Box-to-box players are "a thing of the past" (although admittedly that was an O'Tomkin special, and can be discounted)
All full-backs must now be attacking wing-backs

What's the latest on the "big target man"? They were probably on the way out when Barca didn't have one, but they've brought Ibra now, and Capello likes Heskey, so maybe they're cool again?

It really fucks me off to be honest. All this armchair superfan smuggery and bollocks.

I really like watching good players winning trophies for Liverpool. I tire of the rest of the crap over-analysis that goes with it.

[/quote]

Why are you actively acknowledging and promoting your complete lack of insight, clue, and knowledge about football?

"I don't care about analysis, formations, blah blah blah... J jst like watching good footballers" - You fucking simpleton.

I could ruin your every fucking utterance and thought about football. Fucking ruin you. But what's the point? You'll find one fucking word in whatever detailed breakdown I'm forced to type in order to help you attempt to comprehend and leap all over it in some woeful effort at humour, or a point, or whatever.

Two defensive midfielders never work? Off the top of my head...
Bayern against Lyon last week.
Inter at Stamford Bridge last month.
United against Milan the month before.

Box-to-box midfielders. Name one. Go on. Name someone in the current game who plays box-to-box. You can't, because they don't exist. Very very few can play defensive and offensive midfield roles, but rarely in the same game nevermind in their fucking career.

Heskey?
Pfft. Eriksson & Capello - Both of them love(d) him in the England side. Why do you think that is?

What else have you got?
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39973.msg1094691#msg1094691 date=1272452341]
Whitey summed it up for me. There is no right or wrong way to play, that's what makes football interesting, but the notion that key roles can go out of fashion is nonsense. I would suggest the only key trend in recent time is the popularity of the 4231 system.
[/quote]

Sorry, I have to ask.... Are you actually being serious?
 
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=39973.msg1094712#msg1094712 date=1272453255]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39973.msg1094691#msg1094691 date=1272452341]
Whitey summed it up for me. There is no right or wrong way to play, that's what makes football interesting, but the notion that key roles can go out of fashion is nonsense. I would suggest the only key trend in recent time is the popularity of the 4231 system.
[/quote]

I agree Squiggles but with the notable exception of the sweeper, a position rendered extinct by the change of the offside rule.
[/quote]

Interesting one.

The sweeper in the old fashioned sense prospered as the spare man in the back 3 of a 3-5-2. Most sides (us being a pretty good example, Chelsea another, Barca too) play 3-5-2 when in possession - with the defensive midfielder (in Chelsea's case Mikel) dropping alongside the two centre backs. If they drop deep enough, and get the timing right they can take the ball out of defence relatively unchallenged, and in a similar vein to the days of Sammer, etc.

It's not the same, more of an evolution really.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39973.msg1094753#msg1094753 date=1272456549]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39973.msg1094691#msg1094691 date=1272452341]
Whitey summed it up for me. There is no right or wrong way to play, that's what makes football interesting, but the notion that key roles can go out of fashion is nonsense. I would suggest the only key trend in recent time is the popularity of the 4231 system.
[/quote]

Sorry, I have to ask.... Are you actually being serious?
[/quote]

"Honestly like. Do people actually put any thought whatsoever into the team they write down here? Why not just go the whole hog and drop Carra and replace him with Pacheco.

How the fuck would the above team work? How? Seriously fucking how".
Click to expand...

Educate me, oh great one.
 
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