Arsenal vs Liverpool

[Fabio]

[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=44934.msg1317589#msg1317589 date=1303133614]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=44934.msg1317573#msg1317573 date=1303131697]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=44934.msg1317567#msg1317567 date=1303131028]
[quote author=Fox link=topic=44934.msg1317454#msg1317454 date=1303120464]
[quote author=iseered link=topic=44934.msg1317407#msg1317407 date=1303116981]
Spearing, Flanagan and Robinson got a lot of love on MOTD. Nice to see.
[/quote]


Its funny how Kelly was the great new young fullback and now a month or two later we have flanagan and Robinson.

Great to have but can we find some wingers in that academy please not just loads of defenders

BTW, is our goal the latest goal ever, must be up there
[/quote]

Never seen Raheem & Stirling play then?
[/quote]

Just got that deja vu feeling.

Raheem & Sterling is the same person, Dr Mac did this in another thread. Weird.
[/quote]

Raheem is an amazing winger. Sterling isn't going to make it IMHO.
Ahem.
[/quote]

Ahem is a tidy little player too. He always looks fed up though

 

[Judge Jules]

Yeah, I reckon a loan period would help him mature.

 

[themn]

How many times have we seen that happen, only for the player to never return ?

I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Boozer]

Rafa's not here anymore though. He never gave kids a chance.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Boozer link=topic=44934.msg1317746#msg1317746 date=1303160853]
Rafa's not here anymore though. He never gave kids a chance.
[/quote]

patently untrue and further rafa spend an absolute fucking fortune on a lot of talented kids for the future when he could just as easily has spent the first team (some would say that would have been better) so let's not make out rafa was against youth or isn't a massive reason you are seeing the fruits of the academy

 

[Boozer]

So are you seriously suggesting that if Rafa was still in charge Raheem, Sterling and Ahem would all have had a fair crack at the 1st team?

 

[the count]

[quote author=Boozer link=topic=44934.msg1317760#msg1317760 date=1303163094]
So are you seriously suggesting that if Rafa was still in charge Raheem, Sterling and Ahem would all have had a fair crack at the 1st team?
[/quote]Well he played Florent Sinama Pongolle fairly regularly in his first season so that's three for starters.

 

[Squiggles]

[quote author=the count link=topic=44934.msg1317761#msg1317761 date=1303163453]
[quote author=Boozer link=topic=44934.msg1317760#msg1317760 date=1303163094]
So are you seriously suggesting that if Rafa was still in charge Raheem, Sterling and Ahem would all have had a fair crack at the 1st team?
[/quote]Well he played Florent Sinama Pongolle fairly regularly in his first season so that's three for starters.
[/quote]

Managers have to work with what they've got in the first season.

Rafa could obviously understand the importance of the youth structure for a club, but the overhaul of the academy took far too long and Rafa never benefited from it.

We never had a decent plan of getting youngsters into the side and often youngsters would see their way into the team blocked by shit freebie signings.

 

[TheBunnyman]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=44934.msg1317762#msg1317762 date=1303164082]
[quote author=the count link=topic=44934.msg1317761#msg1317761 date=1303163453]
[quote author=Boozer link=topic=44934.msg1317760#msg1317760 date=1303163094]
So are you seriously suggesting that if Rafa was still in charge Raheem, Sterling and Ahem would all have had a fair crack at the 1st team?
[/quote]Well he played Florent Sinama Pongolle fairly regularly in his first season so that's three for starters.
[/quote]

Managers have to work with what they've got in the first season.

Rafa could obviously understand the importance of the youth structure for a club, but the overhaul of the academy took far too long and Rafa never benefited from it.

There's nothing much left to say on the issue.
[/quote]

You're definitely Jamo.

 

[spider-Neil]

anyone who watches the reserves semi regularly will tell you the reserves was rubbish for years it's only recently there has been a sharp jump in quality and a big reason for that is the amount of money rafa poured into the youth. rafa didn't play the youth that often as there was no youth to play and even then he played the likes of insua.

also in rafa's first season he trusted the youth right till the semi final of the carling cup and then went with experiene so anyone saying rafa didn't give youth a chance is talking rubbish.

 

[SaintGeorge67]

Spot on spidey

 

[FoxForceFive]

[quote author=Portly link=topic=44934.msg1317310#msg1317310 date=1303084061]
[quote author=themn link=topic=44934.msg1317289#msg1317289 date=1303079692]
Erm.......what ?
[/quote]

Harry Beck who designed the London Underground "map" based it on an electronic circuit diagram. It's a diagram not a map and doesn't show the relative distances between the stations. 🙂
[/quote]

Yep, hence you can look at the map, see where you want to go at the other side of the map, travel there by some convoluted system, then when you look on an overground map discover it was literally just around the corner.

However, the tube map itself is genius & was revolutionary.

 

[Red Mullet]

[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=44934.msg1317773#msg1317773 date=1303167097]
[quote author=Portly link=topic=44934.msg1317310#msg1317310 date=1303084061]
[quote author=themn link=topic=44934.msg1317289#msg1317289 date=1303079692]
Erm.......what ?
[/quote]

Harry Beck who designed the London Underground "map" based it on an electronic circuit diagram. It's a diagram not a map and doesn't show the relative distances between the stations. 🙂
[/quote]

Yep, hence you can look at the map, see where you want to go at the other side of the map, travel there by some convoluted system, then when you look on an overground map discover it was literally just around the corner.

However, the tube map itself is genius & was revolutionary.
[/quote]

Thought everybody knew this? ???

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=44934.msg1317763#msg1317763 date=1303164268]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=44934.msg1317762#msg1317762 date=1303164082]
[quote author=the count link=topic=44934.msg1317761#msg1317761 date=1303163453]
[quote author=Boozer link=topic=44934.msg1317760#msg1317760 date=1303163094]
So are you seriously suggesting that if Rafa was still in charge Raheem, Sterling and Ahem would all have had a fair crack at the 1st team?
[/quote]Well he played Florent Sinama Pongolle fairly regularly in his first season so that's three for starters.
[/quote]

Managers have to work with what they've got in the first season.

Rafa could obviously understand the importance of the youth structure for a club, but the overhaul of the academy took far too long and Rafa never benefited from it.

There's nothing much left to say on the issue.
[/quote]

You're definitely Jamo.
[/quote]

Yup, absolutely.

 

[KopKing]

[quote author=Boozer link=topic=44934.msg1317746#msg1317746 date=1303160853]
Rafa's not here anymore though. He never gave kids a chance.
[/quote]

So not true. Jack Robinson is the youngest player ever to make a senior appearance, who played him? Rafa.
Jay Spearing , Martin Kelly Rafa played them both. Not forgetting Insua, Plessis and Mellor. That's six players off the top of my head.

 

[Modo]

[quote author=KopKing link=topic=44934.msg1317805#msg1317805 date=1303174892]
[quote author=Boozer link=topic=44934.msg1317746#msg1317746 date=1303160853]
Rafa's not here anymore though. He never gave kids a chance.
[/quote]

So not true. Jack Robinson is the youngest player ever to make a senior appearance, who played him? Rafa.
Jay Spearing , Martin Kelly Rafa played them both. Not forgetting Insua, Plessis and Mellor. That's six players off the top of my head.
[/quote] Ayala, Pongolle, Paletta, Ngog, Pacheco, Raven, Welsh, Whitbread and Potter.

 

[SummerOnions]

[quote author=KopKing link=topic=44934.msg1317805#msg1317805 date=1303174892]
[quote author=Boozer link=topic=44934.msg1317746#msg1317746 date=1303160853]
Rafa's not here anymore though. He never gave kids a chance.
[/quote]

So not true. Jack Robinson is the youngest player ever to make a senior appearance, who played him? Rafa.
Jay Spearing , Martin Kelly Rafa played them both. Not forgetting Insua, Plessis and Mellor. That's six players off the top of my head.
[/quote]

He gave Robinson 5 minutes of a meaningless match, he didn't play Kelly at all in the league, Insua only played cos he was better than Dossena, he fucked Mellor off sharpish after some decent performances, and played Plessis like twice.

They arent't the greatest examples.

 

[localny]

A lot of people credit the current crop with changes in personnel and management that Rafa brought in in 2009. He joined us in 2004. Can someone explain the reasons/politics/ why it took Rafa five years to make those changes, or get interested in the youth set-up?

Still thinking about some of Spearing/Robinson's/Flanno's performances this past weekend. Some of Spearing's tackles were immense. He really wants his place. Great to see.

 

[hamstrung_pigeon]

[quote author=localny link=topic=44934.msg1317812#msg1317812 date=1303177164]
A lot of people credit the current crop with changes in personnel and management that Rafa brought in in 2009. He joined us in 2004. Can someone explain the reasons/politics/ why it took Rafa five years to make those changes, or get interested in the youth set-up?

Still thinking about some of Spearing/Robinson's/Flanno's performances this past weekend. Some of Spearing's tackles were immense. He really wants his place. Great to see.
[/quote]

Didn't he really get a say in the Academy matters only after the last contract he signed that gave him absolute powers? Didn't McParland, Pep, Rudolfo come only after that? And of course, there was the extremely fortunate masterstroke of bringing Kenny back into the fold.

I think a balanced analysis of Benitez's legacy in the setup beyond the first team also has to take into account the failed policy of air-dropping a whole genre of mediocre purchases/transfers in the Reserves over a thin crop of Academy graduates. None of those paratroopers made any significant inroads into a very thin first team squad (still chance yet for Pacheco and Ayala though). Ironically, some of the graduates who were clouded over are actually playing with some regularity in the league (Kelly, Spearing, Guthrie, Hammill...).

 

[Modo]

I remember that replaced a lot of the staff early on. Steve Heighway who was head of the academy got sacked I seem to recall as well as some of the scouts.

Steve Heighway Bitter At Benitez
Heighway fumes at 'crazy' Benitez

Heighway with the latest crop of Liverpool academy graduates
Former Liverpool academy coach Steve Heighway says manager Rafael Benitez's decision to assume control of the club's youth policy is "crazy".
Heighway left his job last week after 18 years in charge, following their FA Youth Cup win over Manchester United.

He told The Times: "Rafa is a terrific manager, but I think I'm the best coach of 17 and 18-year-olds in this club.

"But I no longer get the chance to do that. It's crazy, mad and it's to the detriment of the young players here."

Heighway, who oversaw the development of Michael Owen and Steven Gerrard, added: "If they are not working with the best coach of young players, then what is this football club doing?

"It's not an ego thing, but one thing I am absolutely sure about is that the best thing for the players is to be with me.

"My influence is being taken away too soon over the best players and I'm not convinced that what they are going to do is better for them.

"I would urge any football club to make sure the academy is not one of the areas the manager controls."

The emphasis on youthful talent is no surprise. “When I arrived we had a lot of players we needed to change,†Benítez says. “We had to replace these players year on year. The first team were bad and it was the worse for the reserves.

“So we had to buy fringe players and take a gamble. Some of these players have been good and some not good enough for us. It’s a risk you have to accept when you have not got too much money available. The problem started at the academy. We weren’t producing players.â€

The production line that served up Robbie Fowler, Steve McManaman, Michael Owen, Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher had ground to a halt. Steve Heighway, the academy director, was replaced by Frank McParland and Benítez took a hands-on role.

“This is the first year of my second five years and the first time I can have some influence in the academy,†he says. “We are trying to build something and leave a legacy for the future.

“When we talk about the young players we’ve brought in, the cost for them is about £5m. Players like Gulacsi, Pacheco, Ayala, Ngog, Insúa. The value of Insúa in the marketplace now would pay for all the signing of the young players in the last five years. We had to build foundations so we can win in the future.†The shortage of young Scousers coming through the ranks aggravates the manager, however.

“I want to see the academy producing local players,†Benítez says. “We didn’t produce too many so we had to look elsewhere to be able to find the new generation of players that will be at the heart of the team and the club. We need local players.â€

A shrewd move was to bring back Kenny Dalglish to assist at Kirkby. The iconic former player and manager is performing a number of roles and the manager is delighted to have him involved. “He was a good signing, no?†Benítez says with a twinkle.

“He is someone who knows the club, has a very good mentality and is strong enough mentally to defend the club as an ambassador. With his role in the academy, he attracts players.â€

Don't forget Rafa also bought Raheem, Suso and Wilson.

 

[Portly]

[quote author=Modo link=topic=44934.msg1317837#msg1317837 date=1303196863]
Don't forget Rafa also bought Raheem, Suso and Wilson.
[/quote]

Rafa bought dozens of young players but he was always too cautious to put them in the first team. There was no way we would have seen Flanagan and Robinson against Arsenal had Rafa still been in charge. Probably not Spearing either.

 

[Modo]

[quote author=Portly link=topic=44934.msg1317839#msg1317839 date=1303197420]
[quote author=Modo link=topic=44934.msg1317837#msg1317837 date=1303196863]
Don't forget Rafa also bought Raheem, Suso and Wilson.
[/quote]

Rafa bought dozens of young players but he was always too cautious to put them in the first team. There was no way we would have seen Flanagan and Robinson against Arsenal had Rafa still been in charge. Probably not Spearing either.
[/quote]

Well that's a different issue. I'm trying to say that Rafa revitalized the academy.
I think it's unfair to say that Rafa wouldn't have played them because tbf they wouldn't have played if we weren't missing three fullbacks. It's kind of a freak accident.
Robinson wasn't scheduled to play he only came on for Aurelio and Dalglish did try to "safe it" by playing Carra and Wilson as fullbacks a couple of times before but that kinda backfired.
I don't know what Benitez would have done. All I know is that when we were down 0-1 against Olympiakos and needed three goals, he threw in Mellor and Sinama in the second half and we managed to turn it around. And having them around was a desperate move considering that Cissé was injured and Baros had just come back from injury.
Dalglish has been just as cautious as Benitez with the youths IMO, the only reason Flanno and Robbo are playing is because of freak circumstances.

 

[Delinquent]

[quote author=Modo link=topic=44934.msg1317851#msg1317851 date=1303199284]
[quote author=Portly link=topic=44934.msg1317839#msg1317839 date=1303197420]
[quote author=Modo link=topic=44934.msg1317837#msg1317837 date=1303196863]
Don't forget Rafa also bought Raheem, Suso and Wilson.
[/quote]

Rafa bought dozens of young players but he was always too cautious to put them in the first team. There was no way we would have seen Flanagan and Robinson against Arsenal had Rafa still been in charge. Probably not Spearing either.
[/quote]

Well that's a different issue. I'm trying to say that Rafa revitalized the academy.
I think it's unfair to say that Rafa wouldn't have played them because tbf they wouldn't have played if we weren't missing three fullbacks. It's kind of a freak accident.
Robinson wasn't scheduled to play he only came on for Aurelio and Dalglish did try to "safe it" by playing Carra and Wilson as fullbacks a couple of times before but that kinda backfired.
I don't know what Benitez would have done. All I know is that when we were down 0-1 against Olympiakos and needed three goals, he threw in Mellor and Sinama in the second half and we managed to turn it around. And having them around was a desperate move considering that Cissé was injured and Baros had just come back from injury.
Dalglish has been just as cautious as Benitez with the youths IMO, the only reason Flanno and Robbo are playing is because of freak circumstances.
[/quote]

Sorry Modo, but that's nonsense, and I suspect you know it. Kelly became a mainstay in the side under Kenny. Glen was shifted out to the left to accommmodate him. Rafa would never have done that. Flannaghan and Robinson wouldn't been used under Rafa either. He would have reshuffled the back line in favour of the more experienced players. Spearing would not be featuring regularly under Rafa. Wilson wouldn't have had as many chances. Kenny has even given a couple of run-outs to kids in Europe.

There is a marked difference in Kenny's approach to youngsters. It has even been commented on by the youngsters themselves.

 

[Modo]

[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=44934.msg1317866#msg1317866 date=1303201307]
[quote author=Modo link=topic=44934.msg1317851#msg1317851 date=1303199284]
[quote author=Portly link=topic=44934.msg1317839#msg1317839 date=1303197420]
[quote author=Modo link=topic=44934.msg1317837#msg1317837 date=1303196863]
Don't forget Rafa also bought Raheem, Suso and Wilson.
[/quote]

Rafa bought dozens of young players but he was always too cautious to put them in the first team. There was no way we would have seen Flanagan and Robinson against Arsenal had Rafa still been in charge. Probably not Spearing either.
[/quote]

Well that's a different issue. I'm trying to say that Rafa revitalized the academy.
I think it's unfair to say that Rafa wouldn't have played them because tbf they wouldn't have played if we weren't missing three fullbacks. It's kind of a freak accident.
Robinson wasn't scheduled to play he only came on for Aurelio and Dalglish did try to "safe it" by playing Carra and Wilson as fullbacks a couple of times before but that kinda backfired.
I don't know what Benitez would have done. All I know is that when we were down 0-1 against Olympiakos and needed three goals, he threw in Mellor and Sinama in the second half and we managed to turn it around. And having them around was a desperate move considering that Cissé was injured and Baros had just come back from injury.
Dalglish has been just as cautious as Benitez with the youths IMO, the only reason Flanno and Robbo are playing is because of freak circumstances.
[/quote]

Sorry Modo, but that's nonsense, and I suspect you know it. Kelly became a mainstay in the side under Kenny. Glen was shifted out to the left to accommmodate him. Rafa would never have done that. Flannaghan and Robinson wouldn't been used under Rafa either. He would have reshuffled the back line in favour of the more experienced players. Spearing would not be featuring regularly under Rafa. Wilson wouldn't have had as many chances. Kenny has even given a couple of run-outs to kids in Europe.

There is a marked difference in Kenny's approach to youngsters. It has even been commented on by the youngsters themselves.
[/quote]

To be fair I don't think Glenn was shifted to the right to accommodate Kelly it was basically because we didn't have a left back. Aurelio was out injured and Konchesky was shipped out. You make it sound like Kelly is first choice RB...
If we buy a LB this summer it's back to the bench for Kelly IMO.
Regarding the reshuffling...see LFC vs Braga. Dalglish did the same. Instead of giving Robinson a chance he moved Johnson to the left and played Carra on the right. When both Agger and Johnson broke down vs WBA, Flanno and Robbo weren't even on the bench. Wilson and Stelios came on.
But it didn't work out. DLWL is what we got out of it, so enter backup plan Flanno and Robbo on the bench.

Regarding Wilson not given chances under Rafa, you just pulled that one out of your ass. Almost every young defender Rafa has bought especially foreign ones have been given a shot.
Paletta, Ayala, Insua and to a lesser extent Agger who was 21 when he joined are just some of the examples. It's a matter of being good enough. The only mistake I can remember is prolly San Jose who is a regular at Bilbao.

Rafa never rated Spearo.

 

[peterhague]

i'm pretty certain that rafa would've been more cautious than dalglish has, but nevertheless i still think people always underestimate his willingness to give youngsters a chance. firstly, throughout his time here he never once had a youngster come through of the highest quality, but even so there were usually a couple in and around the squad. insua, ngog and lucas are just 3 of the more obvious and recent examples.

to suggest he'd never have given these newer lads a chance after constantly placing SO much emphasis on reforming the youth system is a tad ridiculous imo.

 

[Judge Jules]

It was Rafa who first fetched Robinson into the eskwad.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=peterhague link=topic=44934.msg1317905#msg1317905 date=1303204990]
i'm pretty certain that rafa would've been more cautious than dalglish has, but nevertheless i still think people always underestimate his willingness to give youngsters a chance. firstly, throughout his time here he never once had a youngster come through of the highest quality, but even so there were usually a couple in and around the squad. insua, ngog and lucas are just 3 of the more obvious and recent examples.

to suggest he'd never have given these newer lads a chance after constantly placing SO much emphasis on reforming the youth system is a tad ridiculous imo.
[/quote]

well said, pete.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

Rafa put much of the youth system in place, and now Kenny is nurturing it beautifully.

Both deserve a lot of credit.

 

[Delinquent]

[quote author=peterhague link=topic=44934.msg1317905#msg1317905 date=1303204990]
i'm pretty certain that rafa would've been more cautious than dalglish has, but nevertheless i still think people always underestimate his willingness to give youngsters a chance. firstly, throughout his time here he never once had a youngster come through of the highest quality, but even so there were usually a couple in and around the squad. insua, ngog and lucas are just 3 of the more obvious and recent examples.

to suggest he'd never have given these newer lads a chance after constantly placing SO much emphasis on reforming the youth system is a tad ridiculous imo.
[/quote]

While Rafa spent a great deal of time and effort improving the quality in the academy (and should be commended for that), he didn't have a great record when it came to them making the transition to the first team. Now, you could point to a lack of quality there, but when you look at the number of underperforming first team players, and you see the likes of Kelly, Spearing, Flannaghan, and Robinson coming in and giving good accounts of themselves, it does make you wonder whether Rafa was perhaps a little reluctant, or, as you say, cautious, when it came to giving youth a chance.

I also think there is a legitimate case to be made that Kenny is the better man to bed youngsters into the team. Just look at the way he handled the situation with Flannaghan and Carragher the other day. He is constantly talking to them, reassuring them, complimenting them in his post-match comments. He does everything he can to take the pressure off them. What's more, Dalglish is a warm, compassionate man, and I think that can be of enormous benefit to youngsters when making the step up. It almost makes you wonder how Insua might have progressed under his tutorship (although I suspect that Dalglish would not have sold Riise and replaced him with a fat, homesick Italian, thereby making Insua first choice by default).

 

[doctor_mac]

It's clear that Flanno and Robinson are in the team due to circumstance rather than Dalglish accelerating their progress. On the other hand, Dalglish will pick players on merit, rather than age. Accommodating Kelly as 1st choice FB was a case of his recognition that Kelly was the best FB at the club, regardless of reputation and experience. I think his trust in these kids was signalled by his releasing Konchesky. He thought with the versatility of Johnson, and with Aurelio about, he wouldn't need to use them very much, other than coming on from the bench, but he was clearly wanting to get them acclimatised for more use next season.Circumstances have meant he's had to throw them in at the deep end, but this is far from ideal.

That being said, this must be extremely positive for the Academy to see opportunities come up in this way. I think the buzz about the place improves our chances of competing for the best young talent both in Merseyside and beyond.