Arsenal 2-Liverpool 1 Post match thoughts

[Stulikesdrums]

[quote author=Hansern link=topic=36805.msg974219#msg974219 date=1256814017]
Am I the only one that wasn't to impressed with the "Wizz" kids from Arsenal.
Granted Gibbs and Ramsey will be good players for them in the future. But the rest were average.
The wankfest over the Arsenal youngsters is well overrated imho.
[/quote]

I agree.
When that lad Eastman or whatever he is called came off the commentator was saying 'This kid has got a bright future' and I was thinking to myself that he will probably pop up playing for Port Vale in three seasons and will be referred to as 'the former Arsenal youngster'. He was OK, but just that. I mean he ran around a LOT but he didn't show anything to say he was gonna make it as a Premiership Player. That said, either did Plessis or Spearing.

 

[the_khl]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=36805.msg974235#msg974235 date=1256815644]
[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=36805.msg974202#msg974202 date=1256811691]
I have my doubts about the lad, but this switch from 'give Jay a chance' to 'denounce Spearing as the antichrist' is really brutally premature. If you've seen him play for the reserves regularly you'll know, for example, that there's FAR more to his game than this, and, when confident, he's a sharp and imaginative midfielder who is also very tactically aware. I don't deny for one moment he's has a couple of stinkers in the first team, but this mad rush to dismiss him for all time already just epitomises how hard it is for any academy graduate to make it here. They get wildly hyped, largely without being watched, and then absolutely slaughtered if they don't look great immediately and remain great all season. You wait for Martin Kelly's first bad game - suddenly it will be 'He's been found out,' 'Get rid' etc etc. Give these young players SOME time at least!
[/quote]

Well said. The slating Spearing has gotten since the Sunderland game has been embarassing.
[/quote]
Agreed.

Personally I thought the likes of Plessis, Spearing, Ngog and Insua (the youngsters) all did quite well last night. They've got some obvious flaws but people should really get of their backs at this early stage. Some will come good and some won't but it's been a while since we were able to field so many young 'reserve'-players without getting depressed.

This lot is miles better than what've seen in the past 5-8 years from the Reserves.

 

[gkmacca]

Also, whatever other complaints we might have about Benitez, I do think he deserves far more praise than he gets for having the courage to invest so much time and energy in re-organising the set-up at youth and reserve levels. He's brought in some excellent people, he's got Kenny as a co-ordinator, he's not only brought in a number of promising foreign lads but also - at long last - attempted to revive our local scouting system, and, in five or so years, we'll see this as one of his legacies for the club. Why Houllier, with his reputation for academy football, proved so damagingly uninterested in this area remains a mystery, even after one acknowledges the personality clash with Heighway, but we're now in so much healthier place than five years ago. It's early days, but, at a time when the ownership chaos and in-fighting has been such a distraction, the enterprise shown in this part of the club has been admirable, and it barely gets a mention.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=36805.msg974247#msg974247 date=1256817222]
Also, whatever other complaints we might have about Benitez, I do think he deserves far more praise than he gets for having the courage to invest so much time and energy in re-organising the set-up at youth and reserve levels. He's brought in some excellent people, he's got Kenny as a co-ordinator, he's not only brought in a number of promising foreign lads but also - at long last - attempted to revive our local scouting system, and, in five or so years, we'll see this as one of his legacies for the club. Why Houllier, with his reputation for academy football, proved so damagingly uninterested in this area remains a mystery, even after one acknowledges the personality clash with Heighway, but we're now in so much healthier place than five years ago. It's early days, but, at a time when the ownership chaos and in-fighting has been such a distraction, the enterprise shown in this part of the club has been admirable, and it barely gets a mention.
[/quote]

I hope you're right Macca (that the efforts will be rewarded in the end).

Fact is, I'm very happy with Rafa and the chances he's giving to the kids this year. I know some have been forced upon him but he's giving them a go (Kelly, Ayala, Spearing, N'gog, Insua etc).

 

[peekay]

[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=36805.msg974247#msg974247 date=1256817222]
Also, whatever other complaints we might have about Benitez, I do think he deserves far more praise than he gets for having the courage to invest so much time and energy in re-organising the set-up at youth and reserve levels. He's brought in some excellent people, he's got Kenny as a co-ordinator, he's not only brought in a number of promising foreign lads but also - at long last - attempted to revive our local scouting system, and, in five or so years, we'll see this as one of his legacies for the club. Why Houllier, with his reputation for academy football, proved so damagingly uninterested in this area remains a mystery, even after one acknowledges the personality clash with Heighway, but we're now in so much healthier place than five years ago. It's early days, but, at a time when the ownership chaos and in-fighting has been such a distraction, the enterprise shown in this part of the club has been admirable, and it barely gets a mention.
[/quote]

Agreed there Macca. From what most people have described, it will take another two years for the first set of Benitez kids to start making an impact. We seem to have a lot of talented Under 18's. I dont think we ever had so many promising players who at the very least will make it in the championship or the lower level premiership teams. Hopefully in another two years we can have squad fillers from our reserves.

 

[rebel23]

I think the next generation of kids are better i.e the ones who are 18/19 now, especially Pacheco

it takes years for these things to have an affect, remember Wenger has had full control for over 10 years and able to influence the academy whereas Benitez hasn't had that time, in a few years you will gradually see better players as Benitez will insist on certain characteristics in the youth

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

Out of interest, when was it that Wenger really started producing young talent? How long was he in the job. Obviously the odd one early on, would be by chance rather than his doing.

 

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=36805.msg973982#msg973982 date=1256768604]
Nothing yet but bewildering sights about Degen: very fast when he arrived, then injured all season. Then wretchedly poor defensively this pre-season, then injured. Then tonight fast again. No idea what kind of player he can be if he's ever really fit.
[/quote]

His speed going forward and his sh!teness defensively are totally in line with what the Dortmund supporters were saying about him on their forums when we bought the guy, which amounted to "Thank goodness Flash Harry's gone". As DWM suggests above, I'm afraid I think we probably do know what he'll be like when fully fit, 'coz we've seen it already.

 

[Delinquent]

[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=36805.msg974160#msg974160 date=1256806057]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=36805.msg974159#msg974159 date=1256805800]
Not sure if they showed this on the Tele, but when one of the Gooner players went down, Aquilani was strutting around in circles and clicking his fingers ... It was just funny to watch, he has this aura about him ... From the few minutes I saw of his debut, I'm really looking forward to seeing him play ...
[/quote]

No, I didn't see his aura on the tele.

It's fun to get carried away, and why not, but keep in mind it has nothing to do with anything he's projecting, or anything he did, and everything to do with the fact that if he isn't at the very least a solid player, our season is fucked.
[/quote]

Haha. Nothing like a dose of reality to bring people crashing back down to earth.

He showed some decent touches last night, and played a lovely diagonal ball but I think it'll be a while before we see the best of him.

I think the fans will be patient with him, for the most part.

 

[peekay]

[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=36805.msg974160#msg974160 date=1256806057]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=36805.msg974159#msg974159 date=1256805800]
Not sure if they showed this on the Tele, but when one of the Gooner players went down, Aquilani was strutting around in circles and clicking his fingers ... It was just funny to watch, he has this aura about him ... From the few minutes I saw of his debut, I'm really looking forward to seeing him play ...
[/quote]

No, I didn't see his aura on the tele.

It's fun to get carried away, and why not, but keep in mind it has nothing to do with anything he's projecting, or anything he did, and everything to do with the fact that if he isn't at the very least a solid player, our season is fucked.
[/quote]

Shut up with all this talking sense, farky. I dont want to imagine the potential consequences if Aquilani turned out to be average. So for the time being, I am going to believe in the aura.

 

[gkmacca]

[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=36805.msg974325#msg974325 date=1256822905]
Out of interest, when was it that Wenger really started producing young talent? How long was he in the job. Obviously the odd one early on, would be by chance rather than his doing.
[/quote]

I think Arsenal already had a pretty healthy youth set-up, and certainly scouted their main catchment area really intensively. Wenger built on that very well, although arguably he's remained too biased towards foreign imports. Benitez, on the other hand, arrived to find an absolutely shameful situation, with an awful reserve set-up and an academy that had totally lost its way (as much as I respect Heighway, he'd become like a character from Conrad's Heart of Darkness by that time). Over the past decade we've lost young reds with huge potential to Everton, simply because they and their parents have looked at the academy and decided there's no chance of progression. To change all of that has been a massive challenge, and, because the results will of neccessity only appear down the line, many managers would have been tempted to concentrate purely on the first team, but Benitez has really taken the task on.

 

[Judge Jules]

Indeed. The state of the ressies and the academy was symptomatic of the drift towards mediocrity into which the club had fallen. It needed someone with Rafa's bull-necked stubbornness to even begin the job, let alone carry it through.

 

[Avmenon]

[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=36805.msg974349#msg974349 date=1256825675]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=36805.msg974325#msg974325 date=1256822905]
Out of interest, when was it that Wenger really started producing young talent? How long was he in the job. Obviously the odd one early on, would be by chance rather than his doing.
[/quote]

I think Arsenal already had a pretty healthy youth set-up, and certainly scouted their main catchment area really intensively. Wenger built on that very well, although arguably he's remained too biased towards foreign imports. Benitez, on the other hand, arrived to find an absolutely shameful situation, with an awful reserve set-up and an academy that had totally lost its way (as much as I respect Heighway, he'd become like a character from Conrad's Heart of Darkness by that time). Over the past decade we've lost young reds with huge potential to Everton, simply because they and their parents have looked at the academy and decided there's no chance of progression. To change all of that has been a massive challenge, and, because the results will of neccessity only appear down the line, many managers would have been tempted to concentrate purely on the first team, but Benitez has really taken the task on.
[/quote]


Agree with this.

 

[Sunny]

[quote author=Khalido link=topic=36805.msg974021#msg974021 date=1256770816]
If we had one decent centre midfielder playing from the start, we would have won that game. The decision to partner such an in-experienced duo of Spearing & Plessis away from home against a side whose strongest asset is their midfield passing and moving was beyond me. They were completely overrun.
There is no point playing 4 forwards when your have a midfield that can't win the ball or supply any service to them. Yes it was ONLY the Carling Cup but it was a chance to build more confidence and momemtum. We have a mountain to climb in the Champions League and we're playing catch up in the EPL yet somehow Rafa deems it ok to play that side tonight and expect to win.

[/quote]

Weclome to the site Khalido

 

[RolandG]

Hahaha Delinquent, Mascherano is a good player but don't think for a minute that he is irreplaceable. That's the point I tried to make which you obviously missed. Any half decent player given a chance can make the grade and you definately not telling me that Mascherano is a creative genius! Or are you?

 

[Judge Jules]

Nobody's irreplaceable, but some players are closer to it than others and in our current set-up (financially as well as on the field) Mascher is one of them. If you really think "any half-decent player" could replace him, I want lots of what you're smoking.

 

[RolandG]

Lucas is half decent and would do pretty well alongside Gerrard or Aquilani in central midfield. Mascherano is a key player and we'll win without him too.
We've done without better players. Barcelona is bound to come knocking in January.

 

[the count]

[quote author=Khalido link=topic=36805.msg974021#msg974021 date=1256770816]
If we had one decent centre midfielder playing from the start, we would have won that game. The decision to partner such an in-experienced duo of Spearing & Plessis away from home against a side whose strongest asset is their midfield passing and moving was beyond me. They were completely overrun.
There is no point playing 4 forwards when your have a midfield that can't win the ball or supply any service to them. Yes it was ONLY the Carling Cup but it was a chance to build more confidence and momemtum. We have a mountain to climb in the Champions League and we're playing catch up in the EPL yet somehow Rafa deems it ok to play that side tonight and expect to win.

[/quote]

While the pairing of Spearing and Plessis was the glaring weakness in the side there really wasn't any other alternatives available. Out of our other better central midfielders Masher wasn't available, Aqualini is not ready to start yet and it wasn't woth the risk of playing Gerrard even if he was fit. Lucas has played every minute of every game so far so he needed a rest.

It just shows how weak in depth we are in central midfield.

 

[Judge Jules]

Roland, neither of the CM combos you suggest would leave us sufficiently tight defensively. Either of them, especially Lucas/Aquilani, would see Lucas carrying the primary defensive responsibility in front of the back four and I for one don't think he's up to it yet. If Mascher wants to go we'll just have to make the best of it, but that doesn't change the fact - and this is a fact (copyright Rafa Benitez) - that losing him will pose us a major problem.

 

[Squiggles]

CM is one area we aren't weak in, it's just we've been pushed to the extremes in recent weeks by purchasing an injured Aquilani, Gerrard getting injured & Lucas & Masher flying across the world and back and covering for the other two, etc.

We've got enough depth in that area.

 

[Judge Jules]

Currently that's true, plus IMO we could lose Lucas and - his improved form notwithstanding - wouldn't find it THAT hard to replace like with like. Losing Mascher or (Heaven forbid) Gerrard, though, would be a very different matter. Hopefully we'll say the same about Aquilani soon.

 

[keniget]

Are people still quacking on about being able to replace Masher with any 'ol two bit player?

Fuck it. Let's sell Masher for 20-30M to Barca and bring in Robbie Savage. Or better yet, why don't we inform Barca of Masher's limitations and recommend Savage to them.

 

[Delinquent]

[quote author=RolandG link=topic=36805.msg974407#msg974407 date=1256836238]
Hahaha Delinquent, Mascherano is a good player but don't think for a minute that he is irreplaceable. That's the point I tried to make which you obviously missed. Any half decent player given a chance can make the grade and you definately not telling me that Mascherano is a creative genius! Or are you?
[/quote]

Am I missing something?

 

[RolandG]

JJ, If we do lose Mascherano it will be a blow because he gives us great defensive cover. However,I'm not of the opinion that we always need a defensive midfielder. There should be greater emphasis on our attacking play even though we need to improve defensively this season.

 

[Avmenon]

Post match thoughts.

I'm tired of seeing us lose.