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Anti-Pep backlash

rurikbird

Part of the Furniture
Honorary Member

View: https://youtu.be/F6l1pb1bbZs?si=JIuHhSrjgML5E4j7

Finally it looks like the tenor of City’s coverage in the media is changing - it used to take an iconoclast like Ibrahimovic to say that Pep kills football, now regular pundits are not afraid to say it out loud. Everyone can’t wait for life without Pep’s City.

Can anyone recall a rival team that was so unwatchable in years past?
 
Ken Early not overly impressed with Liverpool and Chelsea either...................................


Every time he’s spoken about taking over from Jürgen Klopp at Liverpool in the summer, Arne Slot has talked about how he’s really only changed a few small details.

“I think it would be a really strange decision, if this club had been so successful with Jurgen and so many players are still there, then to change everything,” he told Sky Sports over the weekend. “I don’t think that would work out really well. So, you just keep the things that you like a lot and implement a few ideas that you have yourself as well… it would be stupid to change everything where they were successful with.”

Obviously the playing staff at Anfield has hardly changed at all. They only signed two new players in the summer. One is doing a year on loan at Valencia, and the other has barely featured due to lack of fitness.

All the more remarkable, then, that Liverpool already feels like a different club.
Last season, Liverpool beat Chelsea 4-1 at Anfield in one of the last great floodlit demolition jobs of the nine-year Klopp era. The 20-year-old full-back Conor Bradley got a goal and two assists in a storming performance on a night when Klopp’s team finished with 27 shots to Chelsea’s four.

Liverpool beat Chelsea again on Sunday, but everything else about this season’s match was … quite different. Eight shots was Liverpool’s lowest total in a home league match since early 2021. (As for Bradley, who captained Northern Ireland for the first time last week, he didn’t even make the squad.)


Liverpool's Mohamed Salah shoots from the penalty spot to score the team's first goal against Chelsea. Photograph: Paul Ellis/AFP/Getty Images

Liverpool's Mohamed Salah shoots from the penalty spot to score the team's first goal against Chelsea. Photograph: Paul Ellis/AFP/Getty Images
It was after he’d been intensely bored and depressed by watching Liverpool and Chelsea contest the semi-final of the 2007 Champions League that Jorge Valdano came up with the phrase “shit on a stick”. The phrase came to define that era of football: in Valdano’s words, “very intense, very collective, very tactical, very physical, and very direct”.

At Anfield on Sunday, the Pep Guardiola acolytes now in charge of Liverpool and Chelsea showcased Shit on a Stick, 2024 Edition.

The basic scene of the new style involves two defenders and the goalkeeper, standing in a line at the back, slowly kicking the ball to each other while the opposition stand watching them. The players in possession are waiting for a press that is never going to come – two years after Roberto de Zerbi shocked the Premier League by telling his center backs to roll the ball around under their studs, who’s still stupid enough to take the bait?

This Beckettian spectacle eventually comes to an end when somebody boots the ball long. It runs out of play or the opposing goalkeeper gets it, and the other team proceeds to do the same thing.

There have been complaints that the Anfield atmosphere is being ruined by Liverpool’s decision to devote too high a share of their new stands to corporate hospitality. Like most other Premier League clubs, they seem more interested in accommodating tourists (who spend lots of money) than regulars (who might sing and create atmosphere).

Referee John Brooks completes an on field VAR check to review a penalty. Photograph: Peter Byrne/PA

Referee John Brooks completes an on field VAR check to review a penalty. Photograph: Peter Byrne/PA
But to be fair to the crowd, a game like this doesn’t make it easy for them. In 2007, Valdano lamented: “If Didier Drogba was the best player in the first match it was purely because he was the one who ran the fastest, jumped the highest and crashed into people the hardest.”


At least back then the fans got to see people jumping and crashing into each other. In the first half yesterday the teams patiently worked the ball around at the back and sides, waiting for clear openings to appear before they risked a pass into midfield.

With both sides staying compact and keeping the ball outside their structure when they were on the defensive, it seemed as though the play was hardly ever arriving into the central areas, between the lines, where football happens.

The same sort of sterile shadowboxing characterised the games between Arsenal and Manchester City last season, between two coaches who were determined above all not to lose. What exactly are fans supposed to be getting excited about?

When the game is so carefully controlled and managed by progressive coaches, it falls to the referee to introduce the precious spark of chaos. At Anfield, John Brooks was not found wanting.

Liverpool's Curtis Jones celebrates scoring their side's second goal of the game. Photograph: Peter Byrne/PA

Liverpool's Curtis Jones celebrates scoring their side's second goal of the game. Photograph: Peter Byrne/PA
Less than 24 hours after William Saliba was sent off for a last-man foul on halfway, Tosin Adarabioyo committed an eerily similar foul on Diogo Jota. No red card this time: that would have opened Professional Game Match Officials Board up to accusations of consistency. Brooks powered on – overlooking, awarding and rescinding penalties with no apparent rhyme or reason. Mohamed Salah broke the deadlock from the penalty spot following one of these random decisions.

The only other outbreak of chaos was in the five minutes after half-time, when there were two goals in quick succession: Nicolas Jackson for Chelsea, then Curtis Jones for Liverpool. Both sides soon reverted to the holding pattern. Chelsea, a goal down, remained stubbornly patient to the end.


Afterwards Enzo Maresca said he was pleased with how his team had played. It might have escaped his attention that they had not recorded a single shot after the 50th minute, when Liverpool went 2-1 up. But then shots are not really what he focuses on, as a coach.

Result aside, the best thing about the game for Liverpool was the performance of Jones in midfield alongside their revelation of the season so far, Ryan Gravenberch.

Gravenberch’s success as a 6 has surprised everybody. Part of it is that Slot gives him a team-mate close by to help. Certainly it’s easier to be one of two sixes in Slot’s system than to be the lone six in Klopp’s. It’s one way in which Liverpool’s new style is less risky for them and maybe less rewarding for the rest of us, but with 10 wins in Slot’s first 11 matches, something seems to be working.
 
Didn't Slot mention Bradley and said he struggled with some issues after the international break? Weird that a journo can't register that before writing an article.

Our game yesterday did almost feel like an energy saving effort to try and win after a difficult preparation.
I rather we do that and get 3 points.
 

View: https://youtu.be/F6l1pb1bbZs?si=JIuHhSrjgML5E4j7

Finally it looks like the tenor of City’s coverage in the media is changing - it used to take an iconoclast like Ibrahimovic to say that Pep kills football, now regular pundits are not afraid to say it out loud. Everyone can’t wait for life without Pep’s City.

Can anyone recall a rival team that was so unwatchable in years past?

Arsenal are even worse somehow
 
I watched the game against Wolves and it was horrendously boring. Play it out left, loft a cross. Repeat. There was just a whole lot of nothing. Lucky break from the corner in the 95th min.
 
Ken Early not overly impressed with Liverpool and Chelsea either...................................


Every time he’s spoken about taking over from Jürgen Klopp at Liverpool in the summer, Arne Slot has talked about how he’s really only changed a few small details.

“I think it would be a really strange decision, if this club had been so successful with Jurgen and so many players are still there, then to change everything,” he told Sky Sports over the weekend. “I don’t think that would work out really well. So, you just keep the things that you like a lot and implement a few ideas that you have yourself as well… it would be stupid to change everything where they were successful with.”

Obviously the playing staff at Anfield has hardly changed at all. They only signed two new players in the summer. One is doing a year on loan at Valencia, and the other has barely featured due to lack of fitness.

All the more remarkable, then, that Liverpool already feels like a different club.
Last season, Liverpool beat Chelsea 4-1 at Anfield in one of the last great floodlit demolition jobs of the nine-year Klopp era. The 20-year-old full-back Conor Bradley got a goal and two assists in a storming performance on a night when Klopp’s team finished with 27 shots to Chelsea’s four.

Liverpool beat Chelsea again on Sunday, but everything else about this season’s match was … quite different. Eight shots was Liverpool’s lowest total in a home league match since early 2021. (As for Bradley, who captained Northern Ireland for the first time last week, he didn’t even make the squad.)


Liverpool's Mohamed Salah shoots from the penalty spot to score the team's first goal against Chelsea. Photograph: Paul Ellis/AFP/Getty Images's Mohamed Salah shoots from the penalty spot to score the team's first goal against Chelsea. Photograph: Paul Ellis/AFP/Getty Images

Liverpool's Mohamed Salah shoots from the penalty spot to score the team's first goal against Chelsea. Photograph: Paul Ellis/AFP/Getty Images
It was after he’d been intensely bored and depressed by watching Liverpool and Chelsea contest the semi-final of the 2007 Champions League that Jorge Valdano came up with the phrase “shit on a stick”. The phrase came to define that era of football: in Valdano’s words, “very intense, very collective, very tactical, very physical, and very direct”.

At Anfield on Sunday, the Pep Guardiola acolytes now in charge of Liverpool and Chelsea showcased Shit on a Stick, 2024 Edition.

The basic scene of the new style involves two defenders and the goalkeeper, standing in a line at the back, slowly kicking the ball to each other while the opposition stand watching them. The players in possession are waiting for a press that is never going to come – two years after Roberto de Zerbi shocked the Premier League by telling his center backs to roll the ball around under their studs, who’s still stupid enough to take the bait?

This Beckettian spectacle eventually comes to an end when somebody boots the ball long. It runs out of play or the opposing goalkeeper gets it, and the other team proceeds to do the same thing.

There have been complaints that the Anfield atmosphere is being ruined by Liverpool’s decision to devote too high a share of their new stands to corporate hospitality. Like most other Premier League clubs, they seem more interested in accommodating tourists (who spend lots of money) than regulars (who might sing and create atmosphere).

Referee John Brooks completes an on field VAR check to review a penalty. Photograph: Peter Byrne/PA

Referee John Brooks completes an on field VAR check to review a penalty. Photograph: Peter Byrne/PA
But to be fair to the crowd, a game like this doesn’t make it easy for them. In 2007, Valdano lamented: “If Didier Drogba was the best player in the first match it was purely because he was the one who ran the fastest, jumped the highest and crashed into people the hardest.”


At least back then the fans got to see people jumping and crashing into each other. In the first half yesterday the teams patiently worked the ball around at the back and sides, waiting for clear openings to appear before they risked a pass into midfield.

With both sides staying compact and keeping the ball outside their structure when they were on the defensive, it seemed as though the play was hardly ever arriving into the central areas, between the lines, where football happens.

The same sort of sterile shadowboxing characterised the games between Arsenal and Manchester City last season, between two coaches who were determined above all not to lose. What exactly are fans supposed to be getting excited about?

When the game is so carefully controlled and managed by progressive coaches, it falls to the referee to introduce the precious spark of chaos. At Anfield, John Brooks was not found wanting.

Liverpool's Curtis Jones celebrates scoring their side's second goal of the game. Photograph: Peter Byrne/PA's Curtis Jones celebrates scoring their side's second goal of the game. Photograph: Peter Byrne/PA

Liverpool's Curtis Jones celebrates scoring their side's second goal of the game. Photograph: Peter Byrne/PA
Less than 24 hours after William Saliba was sent off for a last-man foul on halfway, Tosin Adarabioyo committed an eerily similar foul on Diogo Jota. No red card this time: that would have opened Professional Game Match Officials Board up to accusations of consistency. Brooks powered on – overlooking, awarding and rescinding penalties with no apparent rhyme or reason. Mohamed Salah broke the deadlock from the penalty spot following one of these random decisions.

The only other outbreak of chaos was in the five minutes after half-time, when there were two goals in quick succession: Nicolas Jackson for Chelsea, then Curtis Jones for Liverpool. Both sides soon reverted to the holding pattern. Chelsea, a goal down, remained stubbornly patient to the end.


Afterwards Enzo Maresca said he was pleased with how his team had played. It might have escaped his attention that they had not recorded a single shot after the 50th minute, when Liverpool went 2-1 up. But then shots are not really what he focuses on, as a coach.

Result aside, the best thing about the game for Liverpool was the performance of Jones in midfield alongside their revelation of the season so far, Ryan Gravenberch.

Gravenberch’s success as a 6 has surprised everybody. Part of it is that Slot gives him a team-mate close by to help. Certainly it’s easier to be one of two sixes in Slot’s system than to be the lone six in Klopp’s. It’s one way in which Liverpool’s new style is less risky for them and maybe less rewarding for the rest of us, but with 10 wins in Slot’s first 11 matches, something seems to be working.
I've hardly ever read such a pile of shite ! Ken Early you say? Noted not to bother with this guy in the future.
 
Sounds to me like it's similar to the hate LFC got in the 80s. Comes with the territory when you're dominating.
I doubt if City fans are bored with winning all the time and I don't think we would be either if we won while boring the life out of our opponents
 
Love Ken Early and agree with him here. This football is fucking boring compared to what we had under Klopp. Winning games is great and all, but yesterday was pretty boring for the most part.
 
I'm putting this here to counter that atrocious piece of crap from Early. And this is a by far far more accomplished and lauded journalist, Phil McNulty at the BBC :

Liverpool seem able to exert greater control under Slot's more studied style than on the occasions when so many victories were secured after a wild ride under Klopp.

This must never be taken as a criticism of the German, who left at the end of last season after a nine-year spell as boss, but Slot's early statistics are hugely impressive - the home defeat by Nottingham Forest in September the one blot on his record.

This was Slot's 10th win in 11 games, their best record in any campaign since 1990-91, when then-manager Kenny Dalglish had an identical record. During the Premier League era, only Manchester City's Pep Guardiola, who won his first 10 matches, has reached that many wins in all competitions in fewer matches than Slot.

Chelsea's pass completion rate of 88.1% was the highest on record, since 2003-04, by any away team at Anfield in a Premier League game. And yet, apart from a couple of late scares, Liverpool gave off an air of control that is fast becoming a Slot hallmark.

Maresca's side may have had the ball but Liverpool were solid, with deputy goalkeeper Caoimhin Kelleher, in for injured Alisson, rarely troubled.

 

View: https://youtu.be/F6l1pb1bbZs?si=JIuHhSrjgML5E4j7

Finally it looks like the tenor of City’s coverage in the media is changing - it used to take an iconoclast like Ibrahimovic to say that Pep kills football, now regular pundits are not afraid to say it out loud. Everyone can’t wait for life without Pep’s City.

Can anyone recall a rival team that was so unwatchable in years past?

Its a formula thats delivered 7 league titles in 8 seasons, a CL and several domestic trophies. If that was us, we would be saying fuck you to rival fans.
Some of the football under GH was horrible, and Mourinho was the manager that coined the term "park the bus" and his team was the most defensive I can remember only letting in 15 goals all season (I could be wrong on that figure)
 
So people would rather play exciting end to end football and be 6th?

I think its a bit unfair in regards to Slot. He's clearly implementing his style of play and at the same time winning matches. What more does Cunt Early expect?
 
I'm all for attacking football, but with an enhanced "control", which is what slots giving us. Klopp would be 100mph from 1' to 90'. Not every game needs that and not every game would end in a win because of that.

There will be game klopp would have won that slot won't, and vice versa. I like not feeling panicked every time there's an opposition attack. Even yesterday, I never actually believed they'd score after we got the 2nd. The goal they did get was down to a sleepy ibou moment.
 
I'm all for attacking football, but with an enhanced "control", which is what slots giving us. Klopp would be 100mph from 1' to 90'. Not every game needs that and not every game would end in a win because of that.

There will be game klopp would have won that slot won't, and vice versa. I like not feeling panicked every time there's an opposition attack. Even yesterday, I never actually believed they'd score after we got the 2nd. The goal they did get was down to a sleepy ibou moment.
Braver than me.. from 80 minutes onwards it was squeaky bum time for me.
 
I don't think Pep is destroying football, no manager can destroy football - its a silly idea. It is up to opposition teams and their managers to take the on. There are so many flaws in Pep's system that I cannot understand why managers of other teams don't setup to counter it if they don't think they can beat them at ball retention. The players who were in that Wolves team - they are equally competent on the ball as any City player - the fact that they are not able to pass and move like City - is a coaching issue not a player issue. This whole argument is blown out of proportion. Just ask yourself - of all the teams that City play why have they always struggled against Spurs ? - against United managed by Ten-Hag ? - that team can be picked off easily at the right times or can be countered by doing exactly what they do - which was done perfectly last season by Aston Villa when City played them away - it was the worse performance by City against any team under Pep - they were totally outfought by Villa in terms of ball retention.
 
Personally I am happy to trade excitement for success and I'm not sure why people are being so prickly when it is said what we are less exciting to watch this season.
Saying we have more control of a game now
shouldn't be taken as a criticism of Klopp no more than saying that we are less gung ho is a criticism of Slot.
 
Love Ken Early and agree with him here. This football is fucking boring compared to what we had under Klopp. Winning games is great and all, but yesterday was pretty boring for the most part.

Yeah I think our football is really boring too.

I thought we played some nice stuff in the second half at Ipswich but since then it's been a weird combination of controlled and yet technically inept.

I don't really know what to think beyond that. I don't think we're going to win the league but obviously I hope I'm wrong.
 
Its a bit weird that our football is labelled boring when we have created the most big chances in the league, 3rd for shots on target and 2nd for expected goals. All this while having the best defensive record in the league and our new manager trying to implement his new style and tactics.

We're doing pretty well in all honesty, so maybe some have a bit of an unrealistic look at how we should play versus getting results while being in transition.

Fwiw, I don't think we are seeing a Slot team yet anyway. It will take some time to set that up correctly. But I'm really enjoying it so far.
 
Football fans complain no matter what. I think the gripe for City fans is that have so many players that are 'system style' players, or heavily restricted by one, and that can means there's very little plan B, or dynamism when it's not working. Doku is an outlier to some degree, but his form has been shite. Honestly, though, who give a fuck about the gripes of a spoiled, plastic fanbase. It reeks of entitlement.
 
I don't fully buy into the loss of excitement. It feels like we are making almost just as many attacking opportunities but we are being a lot less clinical and careful with possession in the final third leading to lots and lots breaking down.

I am enjoying the current style, and it only needs a couple of players to really click (Szobs, Jota) for us to be potentially scoring 5 or 6 every game
 
I don't fully buy into the loss of excitement. It feels like we are making almost just as many attacking opportunities but we are being a lot less clinical and careful with possession in the final third leading to lots and lots breaking down.

I am enjoying the current style, and it only needs a couple of players to really click (Szobs, Jota) for us to be potentially scoring 5 or 6 every game
I think we're making less chances, but creating more "clear cut" ones; so the clinical aspect seems worse than it is.

I'm confident it'll click soon
 
Love Ken Early and agree with him here. This football is fucking boring compared to what we had under Klopp. Winning games is great and all, but yesterday was pretty boring for the most part.
I don't always agree with what he says but I like that he doesn't follow the herd while at the same time isn't a contrarian just for the sake of it.
 
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