And here's to you Mr Robertson

[Fabio]

That phrase "perceived inaction" is an interesting one. If anybody seriously imagines the club has just sat back and done nothing about these issues, I want lots of whatever they're toking. If not, why accuse the club of it at all? I appreciate that anger will rise, but that doesn't make it a good guide to decision-making.

To me the vastly more likely explanation is that we've looked but haven't found what we want so far. Fair play to you for naming names, but we simply do not know whether the club has enquired and been knocked back/quoted unacceptable fees, whether Klopp doesn't think they're good enough/a good fit for our system, whether there are off-the-field troubles affecting some of the players concerned, etc. The fact that Coutinho hasn't yet been replaced does not automatically imply that the club's at fault, and the apparent assumption by some of us that it does imply that makes no sense to me.

If we're willing to spend 75 million on a problem position, it's bizarre to me we wouldn't spend 90 on mahrez, to replace a quality player in an area where we've struggled creatively. Yes, we tired to get keita, yes we've meant to have tried to get lemar. Both failed.

If they tried other targets then fine, but as we're often told klopp has his targets and no one else is acceptable. This works to a point.

 

[Hansern]

Mahrez isnt worth 90 mill though, and we’ll get a better player this summer as Coutinho’s replacement.

 

[Fabio]

Mahrez isnt worth 90 mill though, and we’ll get a better player this summer as Coutinho’s replacement.

How do you know though? Lemar talks cooled, and now no one is really being linked. I know papers mean fuck all anyway like.

And that's kinda not the point. I wouldn't want us to spunk 90m on mahrez, I was just mentioning a similar player who was available.

If we finish the season in 5th because we lose form, then no one will be "well, we were boss for 2 months after he left". There would be uproar.

We knew he was leaving, and it seemed like we were scrambling for keita or lemar.

Hindsight makes or breaks that midseason coutinho sale.

 

[Fabio]

At the end of the day, we didn't HAVE to sell him. We let it happen. A losing a quality player at a crucial time was a bit fucking daft if we didn't have someone else in the wings.

 

[Fabio]

But this isn't the thread

 

[Hansern]

Yeah, hindsight will prove if this was a good move or not.
I dont think blowing loads of money on a short term fix would be the answer, and we all know Klopp doesnt work that way.

I think we actually have a better balance in the team now without Coutinho. The fab 4 left us top heavy but the fab 3 gives us more balance in midfield.
We definetly need a replacement but not a like for like. Shame we couldnt get Keita in now to bolster the midfield options.

Hopefully we can stay clear of long term injuries for the rest of the season and finish in the top 4.

 

[Insignificance]

No, but I don't think that was Stevie's point. I think he's aiming, rightly IMO, at all those panicky "there has to be somebody else out there who would do just as well" posts - of which, with respect, there's a slight echo in the beginning of your second para.above - which kept appearing a while ago, usually without actually naming anyone. AFAIC there may well be only a tiny number of players, quite possibly just the one, who (a) will be good enough and (b) are available at (c) an acceptable price - and, even if we find him/them, doing a deal isn't an overnight job. We have endured a profusion of "near enough is good enough" signings in recent years, decades even, which have turned around and bitten us on the @rse, so I'm totally with Stevie in celebrating the fact that under Klopp we're no longer willing to go that route.

I agree With you here. There is of course allways a potential player that can be bought as a replacement, but if it isn't who Klopp wants in the long run there is no point is spending stupid Money just because we can.

Plenty times it has been pointed out that VVD wasn't the only one that was better than what we had and hence would improve us. However, in hindsight there is nothing suggesting we would got the defensive leader we needed if we spent 30 mill on Lindeløf, or 40 mill on Rudiger or whoever was out there. Some good CD's but what Klopp probably also identified was the leader to bring the rest on a decent Level. Hence waiting for VVD was probably smart from us.

Same goes for Coutinho. We could maybe buy Mahrez for 90 mill, or Lemar for same or others for crazy amount, but if Klopp decided that he wants different it is probably smart to wait. Maybe he rather want a stronger midfield and put more Money on alternatives up front, or maybe he just doesn't see value in 90 Mill for Mahrez, like People saw huge value in Aubemayang, Mktarian and that splendid piece of busines called Sanchez (who already is rumoured to be unsettled as he has to do a job).

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

And the fact that you refer to "inaction", despite yourself having admitted just now (by your use of the word "outwardly") that you don't know whether that's true or not, shows you're ranting, albeit fluently. In terms of backing up your argument or otherwise, it may not be your "job" to name names, but it's never been clear to me how those who voice such criticisms expect those criticisms to be taken seriously without being able to point to possible names themselves. That "balance of probabilities" line is a copout and you know it.

It not a copout though JJ. Really it isn't. I don't watch football other than Liverpool matches, so I readily admit my inability to identify others who would fit the bill. it doesn't logically follow however, that I don't know a more optimal algorithm for the release of one of our best players mid-season. It may work out for Klopp in the end (and as as a fan of course I hope it does) but it doesn't mean that it's not a risk, and that better planning would have diminished that risk. Again, I'm not ranting or frothing at the mouth or demanding Klopp's resignation. I'm making a point about player acquisition being sub-optimal in this specific case, and you're being too obtuse to admit that I'm right.

 

[Judge Jules]

The reason I'm not doing that is that I don't reckon you *are* right. AFAIC you're positing an argument for which there's no adequate backup. There is a risk involved in the course the club has adopted (there always is when transfer choices get made), but the leap you make from that to concluding that the club got its planning wrong doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Having explained why at some length above, I'll let it rest there. Peace.

 

[juniormember]

It not a copout though JJ. Really it isn't. I don't watch football other than Liverpool matches, so I readily admit my inability to identify others who would fit the bill. it doesn't logically follow however, that I don't know a more optimal algorithm for the release of one of our best players mid-season. It may work out for Klopp in the end (and as as a fan of course I hope it does) but it doesn't mean that it's not a risk, and that better planning would have diminished that risk. Again, I'm not ranting or frothing at the mouth or demanding Klopp's resignation. I'm making a point about player acquisition being sub-optimal in this specific case, and you're being too obtuse to admit that I'm right.

But could we have got a January replacement for the second most expensive player in the history of football? I understand the concern, but I doubt that Klopp or others thought Coutinho would get to the point of proclaiming that he’d never play for the club again, mid-season. He was even more of a cunt than the club could ever imagine. The plan I’m sure was to have kept him till the summer.
If we’re getting a direct replacement, I think the summer would be the only realistic timing.

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

But could we have got a January replacement for the second most expensive player in the history of football? I understand the concern, but I doubt that Klopp or others thought Coutinho would get to the point of proclaiming that he’d never play for the club again, mid-season. He was even more of a cunt than the club could ever imagine. The plan I’m sure was to have kept him till the summer.
If we’re getting a direct replacement, I think the summer would be the only realistic timing.

The title of second most expensive player in the history of football does not translate to the second greatest football player to have ever played football - or even hint that he is "irreplaceable". He was very good for us, (occasionally brilliant) but he doesn't even fall into an elite echelon of player from a current, let alone a historical perspective.

But, I would say that you are correct - obviously a direct replacement for Coutinho is more difficult than a direct replacement for, say, a Jay Spearing. But surely identifying a player with an approximate skill set is not impossible. It's what scouts are paid to do, right? And they had six months to do it. Isn't that strategically more acceptable than placing us at enhanced risk (from further reductions in the squad from possible player injuries etc.) of not making top four?

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

The reason I'm not doing that is that I don't reckon you *are* right. AFAIC you're positing an argument for which there's no adequate backup. There is a risk involved in the course the club has adopted (there always is when transfer choices get made), but the leap you make from that to concluding that the club got its planning wrong doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Having explained why at some length above, I'll let it rest there. Peace.

So you think that where we left our January transfer business was optimized?

 

[Judge Jules]

No, but I don't draw the same conclusion from that as you do, namely that it was necessarily due to failings on the club's part.

 

[C/O]

Am I the only one that was confused with JJ and Sanchez arguing?

I thought they were the same person, but on closer inspection, it's two different avatars.

 

[LFD]

I see lots of Finnan comparisons. I think defensively, I agree with that. Maybe in terms of their crossing ability too.

But I think Robertson has more energy, speed and a better dribbler than Finnan was.

He reminds me more of Baines in his prime.

He's looking the part.

Just shows bargains can still be found and not everything is about how much you spend.

 

[juniormember]

The title of second most expensive player in the history of football does not translate to the second greatest football player to have ever played football - or even hint that he is "irreplaceable". He was very good for us, (occasionally brilliant) but he doesn't even fall into an elite echelon of player from a current, let alone a historical perspective.

But, I would say that you are correct - obviously a direct replacement for Coutinho is more difficult than a direct replacement for, say, a Jay Spearing. But surely identifying a player with an approximate skill set is not impossible. It's what scouts are paid to do, right? And they had six months to do it. Isn't that strategically more acceptable than placing us at enhanced risk (from further reductions in the squad from possible player injuries etc.) of not making top four?

My point was that nobody expected him to act the complete tit 4-5 months after the summer transfer window. He’s a kid who couldn’t get a game at Inter who we developed, so even after the shut in the summer I would presume that the club and manager thought he’d stick around for 9-10 more months.
You’re making it aound like we should have absolutely predicted what happened in Jan, and maybe we should have, but under normal circumstamces planning a year in advance after rejecting everything should have been enough

 

[peekay]

Yeah, hindsight will prove if this was a good move or not.
I dont think blowing loads of money on a short term fix would be the answer, and we all know Klopp doesnt work that way.

I think we actually have a better balance in the team now without Coutinho. The fab 4 left us top heavy but the fab 3 gives us more balance in midfield.
We definetly need a replacement but not a like for like. Shame we couldnt get Keita in now to bolster the midfield options.

Hopefully we can stay clear of long term injuries for the rest of the season and finish in the top 4.

That is the key. It is a mad gamble in my opinion.

Having said that, for the first time in ages, we have a recruitment team, scouts, manager on the same page which is starting to show in our transfers. So cannot complain too much.

 

[Woland]

I reckon if Chelsea get bummed by Citeh on Sunday we're pretty much there. Chill.

However, I'm still well anti us not bringing in some heads. We're well light. Not every signing needs to be a perfect fit.

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

No, but I don't draw the same conclusion from that as you do, namely that it was necessarily due to failings on the club's part.

Fair dooz.

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

My point was that nobody expected him to act the complete tit 4-5 months after the summer transfer window. He’s a kid who couldn’t get a game at Inter who we developed, so even after the shut in the summer I would presume that the club and manager thought he’d stick around for 9-10 more months.
You’re making it aound like we should have absolutely predicted what happened in Jan, and maybe we should have, but under normal circumstamces planning a year in advance after rejecting everything should have been enough

All of that's true enough. Although I guess I feel that Coutinho acting a cunt in January wasn't that surprising to me.

 

[moron]

All of that's true enough. Although I guess I feel that Coutinho acting a cunt in January wasn't that surprising to me.

To be honest - Klopp probably did not want him anyway - great skill and all, but a fucking defensive liability given that Klopp really wanted to play the current 3 up front all the time.

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

Anyway, enough about Cuntyo. That Robertson's a cracking player, aye?

 

[Insignificance]

So you think that where we left our January transfer business was optimized?

So far it's working perfect.

So far Karius proves a new goalie was not needed.

So far VVD control and lead our defence. And we look solid.

So far the midfield seem more balanced and isn't runned over.

So far the front three is even more lethal and score for fun.

It might not last, but if we are to Judge the January business by now it left is with plenty of cash, fixed the defensive part and made is a counter monster.

 

[gkmacca]

Interesting about Karius. An Echo hack was saying the other day that he believed that Klopp intended to play him as number one at the start of the season, with VVD in front of him to revamp the defence, and it was only when the VVD deal collapsed that Ming came back. Then when VVD finally arrived, Karius got his chance again.

 

[Fabio]

Interesting about Karius. An Echo hack was saying the other day that he believed that Klopp intended to play him as number one at the start of the season, with VVD in front of him to revamp the defence, and it was only when the VVD deal collapsed that Ming came back. Then when VVD finally arrived, Karius got his chance again.

That strikes me as massively odd.

Surely the mentality of both keepers behind VVD, or without VVD, would be similar?

Neither seem the most assured, so both would benefit from a commanding centre back.

Maybe karius is younger and klopp likes him, so protected him from the fans?

 

[Insignificance]

Interesting about Karius. An Echo hack was saying the other day that he believed that Klopp intended to play him as number one at the start of the season, with VVD in front of him to revamp the defence, and it was only when the VVD deal collapsed that Ming came back. Then when VVD finally arrived, Karius got his chance again.

Karius must have felt that late desember signing as the best xmas gift ever then!

 

[doctor_mac]

That strikes me as massively odd.

Surely the mentality of both keepers behind VVD, or without VVD, would be similar?

Neither seem the most assured, so both would benefit from a commanding centre back.

Maybe karius is younger and klopp likes him, so protected him from the fans?

The thing is, from that first game in the cup v Everton VVD was on Karius's case, telling him to come for balls and so on. Perhaps with Ming being a senior pro neither VVD nor Ming would be comfortable with Virgil occupying this very obvious commanding role? Karius is young enough to accept being bossed around, whilst mentally, Ming would not respond well to it? Just a guess like, but it may have something in it.

 

[Fabio]

The thing is, from that first game in the cup v Everton VVD was on Karius's case, telling him to come for balls and so on. Perhaps with Ming being a senior pro neither VVD nor Ming would be comfortable with Virgil occupying this very obvious commanding role? Karius is young enough to accept being bossed around, whilst mentally, Ming would not respond well to it? Just a guess like, but it may have something in it.

Good point so Maybe.

But then that's a more damning indictment on ming

I've long thought he would improve with a commanding voice in front of him. But if the opposite is true, and we have actually seen him at his best...fuck me.

 

[tombrown]

That strikes me as massively odd.

Surely the mentality of both keepers behind VVD, or without VVD, would be similar?

Neither seem the most assured, so both would benefit from a commanding centre back.

Maybe karius is younger and klopp likes him, so protected him from the fans?

Maybe because Karius is his man, and he believes in him to be the long term number 1. So without VVD, he would rather throw Mignolet under the bus

Bit harsh maybe ... not sure if it is Machiavellian, as I don't really know what that means, but it sounds like the sort of word to describe it.

 

[Fabio]

Maybe because Karius is his man, and he believes in him to be the long term number 1. So without VVD, he would rather throw Mignolet under the bus

Bit harsh maybe ... not sure if it is Machiavellian, as I don't really know what that means, but it sounds like the sort of word to describe it.

Seems to be, especially if doc macs hypothesis is true