A passer in midfield

[dmishra]

Picking up off a discussion in the match thread, where I think @keniget pointed out that one of the biggest issues with this side is that once teams evade our press, our midfield has to scramble back, and the result is usually a disjointed mess leaving the opposing team acres of space to attack.

If this is a systemic flaw in our midfield, it has got to be with Klopp’s obsession with a particular kind of midfield player – the energetic presser who has a limited passing range. Almost all our CMs fit this stereotype – not to say that they’re technically unable. Can, Wijnaldum, Henderson and Milner (and Grujic too) are all pretty decent technically, but they’re all predominantly short passers. They pass sideways, or play short forward passes, and then try and make a forward run. They prefer to pass short and move, as opposed to sitting and passing with range. Henderson is perhaps the only one with some ability to sit and pass, but that’s been a role that’s been imposed on him. His best years were as a ‘presser’ too.

Perhaps it’s not a Klopp obsession to be fair. That’s just how our midfield has been constructed since Alonso left. Meireles, Joe Cole, Allen, Kevin Stewart, Luis Alberto all fitted this stereotype as well.

The two exceptions in this period were Charlie Adam and Nuri Sahin. Adam of course was hopelessly out of depth for a top 4 side, and Sahin never took to England. So we haven’t actually seen our side with a proper passer in midfield since 2009, bar the last 6 months of the 13-14 season when Gerrard slipped into that quarterback role.

Which begs the question, with Can likely to leave this summer, Henderson being reduced to a squaddie, Milner aging etc., isn’t this a perfect opportunity to reconstruct our midfield, and fix a major systemic issue?

Pair Keita in CM with a passing CM. This has two purposes –

Firstly, passing CMs actually sit and hold their position in midfield. From a stability standpoint, that’s something this side desperately needs.

Secondly, relying on the press and countering with pace is perhaps this team’s only creative idea. As we’ve seen repeatedly, this can be easily frustrated by teams who park the bus. Getting someone who moves the ball quickly, and with range is the perfect way to spread the pitch, use the full-backs and add versatility to your attacking game.

We won two major trophies with Alonso in midfield, and we won the treble with Gary Mac in midfield. I think it’s time we added a player like that again.

 

[gene hughes]

There was a very short period when Henderson came on and made a couple of medium range passes, not even long range, and it was almost jarring to see it because all our other midfielders seem to just play shorter passes to a runner or hit it wide. It made me realize that we're not doing that very much for some reason.

 

[Ijg]

Can we tempt Xabi out of retirement and just get Keita to do all the running

 

[dmishra]

There are quite a few players in Europe who we could target.

Julian Weigl at Dortmund is probably my favourite. Ruben Neves has supposedly been superb for Wolves. Then there's Tielemans at Monaco, who's an amazing talent. Paredes was quite good at Roma, though I have no idea how he's been since he went to Zenit.

If they were available, we could also think of Kroos or Koke.

It doesn't necessarily have to be a number 6. You can have the passer in your number 8 or any other midfield position as well

United had Scholes for ages. Fabregas was quality for Chelsea in 14/15. De Bruyne today is the best passer in the game from a more advanced position.

 

[tomasjj]

Let's say we had Kroos, it would make little difference as Klopp doesn't set the team up to protect his defence properly.

 

[dmishra]

Let's say we had Kroos, it would make little difference as Klopp doesn't set the team up to protect his defence properly.

Talent dictates style, not the other way around.

At Dortmund, Klopp used a 4-2-3-1, and first had Sahin, and then Gundogan as a midfield passer. His team pressed from the front, but had a more stable base in midfield.

When Klopp arrived, the four midfielders at his disposal were Henderson, Can, Milner, Allen - all in the same pressing mould. It's ultimately what Rodgers had tried to construct. Instead of revamping it, Klopp went with it, and tried to improve it. His signings since have all reflected that - Wijnaldum as an upgrade over Allen - and indeed he is - I've always though of Wijnaldum as a fitter, stronger Allen. Converting Lallana into a high-pressing CM. Signing Keita.


With a top 4 finish last year, you can't say it hasn't yielded any success. Our ability to play stronger teams with this style is fantastic.

Yet, Klopp now faces a choice in summer with Can leaving, Milner possibly leaving, and Henderson and Lallana being perma-injured.

Does he continue to buy mids in the same mould, or does he try and reconstruct with a different style. Getting a passing midfielder will make us a more stable side, I'm certain of it.

 

[peekay]

@dmishra, Weren't we linked to Dahoud for some time. Was he a passer?

 

[gkmacca]

Alexander-Arnold could do it in time - he has the full range of passes and he can spot the space very quickly. But that will be in a couple of years or so. In this team VVD is probably the only one who can play some good passes out from the back - that and his ability at free kicks is something the team should start exploiting.

 

[dmishra]

I thought Dahoud and Zielinski were both in the Wijnaldum mould. High energy guys who play short passes.

 

[hmmmmm1]

Christian Pulisic will be the player klopp wants for this role.

 

[Glen C]

Our midfield is lacking in not only someone who is a good distributor of the ball but also a DM. Klopp seems obsessed with runners more than ability. Our midfield is wank. Klopp doesn't help the situation with the way they are setup offering minimal protection for our defence.

 

[Fabio]

Christian Pulisic will be the player klopp wants for this role.

Christian pulisic is not that type of player

 

[Mystic]

I get the impression that this is the player Can wants to be but simply isn't. I agree it's so very important, but it seems Klopp requires the high energy high press midfielder like you mention, so I don't think having a Alonso / Pirlo will ever be possible. Question is can you find someone who does both? I don't know world football well enough, but there must be one out there.

Unfortunately there is one fatal flaw in all this for me and that is that sitting midfielder goes against how Klopp plays, he wants his midfield to push forward and attack the ball when the play changes, a centre back will also push up into the position of the most withdrawn midfielder who's pushed forward. The idea is that you attack the ball early and you win it back, the problem for us is that either we don't do it well enough, or that teams have figured out how to beat it, meaning having Alonso in the team would make little difference to our issues, there has to be a greater tactical change from Klopp, and I worry that doing that will take away from what we're best at, it's a difficult balancing act.

 

[Fabio]

Alexander-Arnold could do it in time - he has the full range of passes and he can spot the space very quickly. But that will be in a couple of years or so. In this team VVD is probably the only one who can play some good passes out from the back - that and his ability at free kicks is something the team should start exploiting.

This is what's so jarring with us. Trent could do the job, so we should play him there, but then a few bad games and the fans would be on his back.

Surely now is the time where he should be placed in midfield, to finesse the rough edges with an eye to long term. We're wasting key playing time keeping him on the bench or at right back.

 

[Fabio]

I get the impression that this is the player Can wants to be but simply isn't. I agree it's so very important, but it seems Klopp requires the high energy high press midfielder like you mention, so I don't think having a Alonso / Pirlo will ever be possible. Question is can you find someone who does both? I don't know world football well enough, but there must be one out there.

Unfortunately there is one fatal flaw in all this for me and that is that sitting midfielder goes against how Klopp plays, he wants his midfield to push forward and attack the ball when the play changes, a centre back will also push up into the position of the most withdrawn midfielder who's pushed forward. The idea is that you attack the ball early and you win it back, the problem for us is that either we don't do it well enough, or that teams have figured out how to beat it, meaning having Alonso in the team would make little difference to our issues, there has to be a greater tactical change from Klopp, and I worry that doing that will take away from what we're best at, it's a difficult balancing act.

Yup. Klopp wants 3 midfielders who can press and pass. Sadly, the ones we have at the moment are very uninventive.

Henderson (as shite as he is now), actually tries long balls and creativity. Ox tries to power in to dangerous positions. Wijnaldum....I don't fucking know. Can, ditto

The balance between the 3 is so off.

 

[mark1975]

I don't see why we can't have both (playmaker and orthodox DM). No one is particularly happy or convinced by our current options in midfield. Henderson and Milner have regressed, Can is brainless and Gini plays brilliantly in the big games and disappears in the rest.

Regardless of Klopp's preferred style, I hope he's got enough about him to adjust his thinking to this league, we need a player in midfield with some steel, if we can add that and a playmaker of sorts, plus Keita, then the rest will rightly be playing back up and Can can have his dream move and get off our books.

I honestly believe we need both, although a playmaker cf Alonso who can dictate things and add an assured calmness, would help no end defensively, it's also not the sole answer to our problems. We looked incredibly disjointed and easy to carve open when we played Alonso and Gerrard in the middle. It was only when Gerrard was then pushed into the advanced roaming roles, either centrally or on the right, and we had Hamann/Mascherano in there, that it worked and looked "complete". We need something approaching that again.

However, there's definitely food for thought when it comes to TAA. If he's not getting many games because we don't trust him defensively, then take him out of a more demanding defensive role and give him a go occasionally in midfield.

 

[Glen C]

I get the impression that this is the player Can wants to be but simply isn't. I agree it's so very important, but it seems Klopp requires the high energy high press midfielder like you mention, so I don't think having a Alonso / Pirlo will ever be possible. Question is can you find someone who does both? I don't know world football well enough, but there must be one out there.

Unfortunately there is one fatal flaw in all this for me and that is that sitting midfielder goes against how Klopp plays, he wants his midfield to push forward and attack the ball when the play changes, a centre back will also push up into the position of the most withdrawn midfielder who's pushed forward. The idea is that you attack the ball early and you win it back, the problem for us is that either we don't do it well enough, or that teams have figured out how to beat it, meaning having Alonso in the team would make little difference to our issues, there has to be a greater tactical change from Klopp, and I worry that doing that will take away from what we're best at, it's a difficult balancing act.

He had no problem having a sitting midfielder at Dortmund for his system so i don't see how we can't have it here. We are so woefully exposed at the back.

 

[manwithnoname]

I get the impression that this is the player Can wants to be but simply isn't. I agree it's so very important, but it seems Klopp requires the high energy high press midfielder like you mention, so I don't think having a Alonso / Pirlo will ever be possible. Question is can you find someone who does both? I don't know world football well enough, but there must be one out there.

Two word question:

Nuri. Sahin.

 

[Kay Age El]

There's a young lad in Danish football at the moment, Mathias Jensen, 22, who could turn into an absolutely wonderful midfield maestro. Ajax is rumoured very interested but are probably slightly worried about asking prices in the £8M bracket (pretty steep for a Danish player still back home) but I can understand the cap.

If we should be in for him (which we most likely are not) he'd have to adapt and he wouldn't be a signing like Keita who'll very likely make us better from day one. However in due time (half a year/a year) he'd perhaps be ready and is he capable of keeping up his current progress and momentum he could reach the very top.

He's got that vision in him that you can't teach players but only a few got, like our very own Xabi for instance. An amazing eye for the pass, short and long as well as great overall skills and a balanced personality with leadership-attributes to boot (U21 Denmark Cpt). It's always difficult to predict whether a player can actually thrive at the top of the game no matter how talented one seems, but the prospect of him continuing his current rise should make us at least aware of him. He could turn into a marvellous player really.

Disclaimer; I don't think we should pay more than say £10M for a player like this as there are still some serious questions to be answered but if he's going to make the Denmark WC squad and potentially get a few games alongside Eriksen - Delaney (not likely mind you) his price could sky-rocket. He's the type of player that, with half a good/great season somewhere decent (could be in Holland) would suddenly demand a +£20M-£30M fee.

And finally someone's made a decent compilation with him;

 

[gkmacca]

Christian Pulisic will be the player klopp wants for this role.

Maybe, and I like the idea of waiting to get particular pieces of the jigsaw in, but I fear the clock is ticking too loudly now for that to go on any longer. You just don't get that amount of time any more.

 

[hmmmmm1]

Maybe, and I like the idea of waiting to get particular pieces of the jigsaw in, but I fear the clock is ticking too loudly now for that to go on any longer. You just don't get that amount of time any more.

Klopp will wait forever for the right player. he is on a 6 year deal so has time on his side unlike most managers (like rodgers - who was given 3 years)

 

[Rosco]

I wouldn't disagree with anything in the original post.The loss of Coutinho exacerbates the problem too.

Lyon have some really interesting midfielders at the minute in Tousart and Aouar.
Lorenzo Pellegrini at Roma probably best fits the description though.

 

[Mystic]

Two word question:

Nuri. Şahin.

Touché.

He had no problem having a sitting midfielder at Dortmund for his system so i don't see how we can't have it here. We are so woefully exposed at the back.

Touché x 2.

So clearly Klopp is capable of playing a system with a sitting midfielder, but has so far chosen not to at Liverpool, maybe striking the correct balance is to return to playing with one at Liverpool. I have no problem with us being an attacking side who concede more than they should as a result, but it's how hilariously exposed we leave ourselves that I, and I suspect most of us have a problem with.

 

[Fabio]

I wouldn't disagree with anything in the original post.The loss of Coutinho exacerbates the problem too.

Lyon have some really interesting midfielders at the minute in Tousart and Aouar.
Lorenzo Pellegrini at Roma probably best fits the description though.

Pellegrini won't be at Roma for long

No clue about the other Lyon lads though. Heard of tousart but never seen him

 

[Frogfish]

.................... Pair Keita in CM with a passing CM. This has two purposes –

Firstly, passing CMs actually sit and hold their position in midfield. From a stability standpoint, that’s something this side desperately needs.

Secondly, relying on the press and countering with pace is perhaps this team’s only creative idea. As we’ve seen repeatedly, this can be easily frustrated by teams who park the bus. Getting someone who moves the ball quickly, and with range is the perfect way to spread the pitch, use the full-backs and add versatility to your attacking game.

We won two major trophies with Alonso in midfield, and we won the treble with Gary Mac in midfield. I think it’s time we added a player like that again.

I don't see it as being quite as simple as your post seems to make it out to be and, with the systems played by most teams today, I'm actually in disagreement. The game has changed substantially since 2009. For the majority of games it's now basically become a rather boring version of 'attack versus defence' rather than two teams testing each other all over the pitch. The only time that isn't so being games between the top teams in the PL or CL or between teams of middling but equal skills (e.g maybe a West Ham vs Southampton type match).

This means that the most impressive midfielders today aren't those with innate medium-long passing skills but those that can unlock defences with creative brilliance, such as Eriksen, Ozil and David Silva. And Hazard, Sanchez etc. if you want to include midfielders-come-forwards.

We generally do very well against teams that 'come out to play' so surely we are not so lacking (though let me be clear, I don't rate any of our current CMs very highly at all and agree that none of three incumbents are worthy of a first team place).
However when faced with defensive minded teams we have issues breaking them down, although I also feel that simply getting to the by-line and cutting it back, something City do so well utilising Sane, Sterling, De Bruyne and Jesus (and that we should be able to do just as well with players such as Salah, Mane, Robertson, Lallana and TAA, but don't for some reason) would go a long way to doing just that.

Therefore the need for midfielders that can play long raking passes to the wings, or in behind the defensive backline, is negated versus the majority of teams but we've hardly been remiss when the opportunity arises, being the second best team on the break in the PL (behind City). So I don't see an Alonso, Sahin or Adam as the type we should be looking at.

Keita will make a massive difference to us simply because he is strong in the ways that our current midfield are weak .. defensively and in ball carrying into the heart of the opposition defence. As a partner for Keita we require a stable defence minded partner, along the lines of a Matic or Wanyama, with Lallana or, as I've proffered several times previously, Firmino, at the head of the trio. All ball winners and with Keita and Lallana/Firmino able to carry the ball deep as well as having creative, assist making, and goal-scoring, abilities.

 

[DHSC]

How about Rabiot?

 

[Fabio]

How about Rabiot?

I'd be all for it, but he doesn't seem consistent, or loses concentration easily

 

[MomoWASright]

He’d fit right in as Can’s replacement.

 

[Rosco]

Pellegrini won't be at Roma for long