The Donkey

[rubans]

It’s a fair challenge. How many of those listed made a consistent run of appearances for the club? Badger (12 appearances) and Quansah (15 appearances). Both of them took their chances due to injuries. Neither seemed to have a clear defined path into the first team. Chances came and they took it.

After those two it has been a case of an appearance here and another there for the rest of the list. We’ve seen it to an extreme level this season. Kids come in, know the system, know the patterns, do a job and then dropped because players who are selected based on fees and wages rather than merit.

Bringing it back to Danns and Nunez, we could see Darwin is struggling. Yet continues to get game time. Even against Everton Klopp persisted with him despite Danns being on the bench. Then Klopp comes out with the “they would’ve killed him comment” which won’t do the kid any favours about believing he can compete at this level.

I think Both do have a path, if Bajetic hasdn't been injured then surely would have got mins. The youngsters shouldn't be entitled for start position in the team, they have to earn it and Quansah despite some shakey shows has been picked for some huge games. Not sure what else Klopp could do here.
Danns thing is a bit much, I get some of the frustrations but maybe Klopp wants to protect him or doesn't think he is quite ready. Doak got a load of game time and had fans raving but so far hasn't got a single goal of note and been injured constantly like our other Scottish RB, it could be Klopp puts young player welfare first. Bradley has been playing constantly since Jan and now is injured, there is a lot to be said for hampering a young player's career by overplaying them intensely when younger, we have had it seems a lot of promising players out on long term injuries over the last few seasons too.

 

[Farkmaster]

Ben Doak was given enough chances and he failed the test. There have been others who have just washed out in similar ways. Most youth players don't work out. Playing the odds, that carling cup is likely the highlight of danns career. It's fun to see these youth talent break through but it mostly doesn't happen and is plagued with injury what ifs and the capriciousness of first team injuries and fate. Bajetic for instance would have been a massive help this year, but instead he lost a year of his career and you never know if he will figure.

 

[Frogfish]

It’s a fair challenge. How many of those listed made a consistent run of appearances for the club? Badger (12 appearances) and Quansah (15 appearances). Both of them took their chances due to injuries. Neither seemed to have a clear defined path into the first team. Chances came and they took it.

After those two it has been a case of an appearance here and another there for the rest of the list. We’ve seen it to an extreme level this season. Kids come in, know the system, know the patterns, do a job and then dropped because players who are selected based on fees and wages rather than merit.

I find it surprising that you're surprised ! How many youngsters are brought in and then replace the injured first teamer completely? Most youngsters not named Owen, gradually assert themselves and become regular starters over a period of 2-3 seasons, not based on half a dozen sub appearances or even starts and scoring against weaker opposition.

It would also be shocking if a player the club has paid big money for, and were regular first teamers before injury, didn't return to the squad/starting lineup and were not given every opportunity to prove their worth, regardless of current form. How often does that ever happen?

This is even more acute at a top level club. Try naming even a handful that have come through at City / Bayern / PSG / Real etc. in a short period, almost all are big money signings or were big money recruits for the youth team that eventually filtered through to the 1st team squad. For clubs with lower budgets they must find a way to balance the books and so promising youngsters get games.

I saw some stats somewhere for the number of youngsters Klopp has blooded and also the total number of games given to youngsters. It's off the charts for a top level club.

 

[StevieM]

Ben Doak was given enough chances and he failed the test. There have been others who have just washed out in similar ways. Most youth players don't work out. Playing the odds, that carling cup is likely the highlight of danns career. It's fun to see these youth talent break through but it mostly doesn't happen and is plagued with injury what ifs and the capriciousness of first team injuries and fate. Bajetic for instance would have been a massive help this year, but instead he lost a year of his career and you never know if he will figure.

Eh?

The same Ben Doak that’s 18, and had 10 appearances for Liverpool - mostly as a sub???

Those games were mostly as a 17 yo.

That’s “given enough chances” in your book.

Sorry - that’s codswallop.

 

[Fabio]

That will be the case in most top clubs though.

True to a point. The cheats down the road often slowly integrate players in, regardless of fortune. That oscar Bobb cunt came on when they were drawing against Newcastle and won them the game. Equally Rico Lewis has consistently been getting minutes, even in a team that didn't struggle with injuries in that position.
I think there's a case to show that klopp has been reluctant to use his whole squad unless necessary, and that's across multiple seasons.

 

[Fabio]

If you want to try and play kids in the first team, you'll find a way to get them minutes. Recently when chasing a game klopp brought on 3 defenders and a DM who were all senior team members, rather than some of the younger players who were more attacking.

I don't think it's some outlandish claim that in the time klopps been here, we should have seen more than 1 player consistently break in to the first team? Quansah id still say is necessity, rather than ability (even though he's good). Even Jones had to rely on injuries or everyone else to be decrepit.

 

[Squiggles]

Like Mark, I'm more than up for seeing what Slott can do with him. Klopp has to take some responsibility when we we invest heavily in a player that required so much work, but it is what it is. There has been progress this season, not as much as we'd like, but progress nonetheless. Reading up a bit, Slott places a lot of emphasis on individualised training, and it's that kind of attention Nunez needs. Finishing relentlessly until he has a natural set of finishers he can fall back on when his not as his sharpest.

I'm not hugely optimistic, and would take a decent offer for him now, but if that doesn't transpire then I'll be intrigued to see how he fares under a new coach. I've said it before but if we got more high and low crosses into the box, cut backs from the half space and decent heading opportunities than Nunezs output will increase. From what I've seen of Slott be likes to play his attacking game and build up through the central areas with quick interplay, with lots of technique. That's why I'm not overly optimistic if Slott intended to port his game over.

 

[Hansern]

True to a point. The cheats down the road often slowly integrate players in, regardless of fortune. That oscar Bobb cunt came on when they were drawing against Newcastle and won them the game. Equally Rico Lewis has consistently been getting minutes, even in a team that didn't struggle with injuries in that position.
I think there's a case to show that klopp has been reluctant to use his whole squad unless necessary, and that's across multiple seasons.

I beg to differ:

Oscar Bobb has played 287 minutes in the league. Rico Lewis has played 400 minutes.

Quansah (debut season) 1009 mins, Bradley (debut season) 741 mins, Elliott 1178 mins.

 

[MomoWASright]

I think Both do have a path, if Bajetic hasdn't been injured then surely would have got mins. The youngsters shouldn't be entitled for start position in the team, they have to earn it and Quansah despite some shakey shows has been picked for some huge games. Not sure what else Klopp could do here.
Danns thing is a bit much, I get some of the frustrations but maybe Klopp wants to protect him or doesn't think he is quite ready. Doak got a load of game time and had fans raving but so far hasn't got a single goal of note and been injured constantly like our other Scottish RB, it could be Klopp puts young player welfare first. Bradley has been playing constantly since Jan and now is injured, there is a lot to be said for hampering a young player's career by overplaying them intensely when younger, we have had it seems a lot of promising players out on long term injuries over the last few seasons too.

I think they have a plan now because they’ve proven they can make that step up. They didn’t have a plan to begin with. Stefan was thrown in because we had to try and complete a season with geriatrics, half of which are made of biscuits. Quansah wasn’t going get minutes until Matip died, Konate had his programme changed to one game a week and our full backs died so Gomez was needed there. Bradley was never going to get minutes unless neither Trent or Gomez could play right back.

All three of those showed what they can do and got a dozen games in the side. You can see our forwards are struggling. Due to injuries, exhaustion or confidence they weren’t performing to a level they should. Yet Klopp made that decision to not to see if Danns can make a step up as he did with Badger, Quansah and Bradley. There is something about protecting youth but he also should be protecting the first team too.

While it is all ifs and buts, that decision may have been the difference between finishing third and first.

We’re not in a position of a mega club that can have several “£50 million” subs ready to rotate in. That’s why the academy was changed to help that transition of the elite talents we have.

That’s what is frustrating me most. We have a player who misses so many easy chances that you’d expect most professionals to convert is still getting games yet decided not to use a kid from our ranks who has scored when asked to play.

 

[tomasjj]

Maybe being subbed for an academy kid will be a kick up nunez' arse too.

 

[rubans]

I don't think it's kick up the arse he needs. If he is hitting the keeper everytime when he 1-1 then I don't think it's intending to do it, whom would?
It's like Bowler bowling No balls, maybe that's his capability or something else. Would have preferred to See Danns given a go a bit more too but then he has also been injured too.

 

[jan]

It will just motivate him to delete his Twitter posts as well

 

[mark1975]

Good. The faster the useless fuck is gone, the better.

I don't know why people have to resort to stuff like this. Maybe it's just me. I mean, we've all had our pet hates and usually for much worse reasons than Nunez, and maybe I'm just a bit past all of this, but yeah. It's not helpful is it?

 

[rubans]

I don't know why people have to resort to stuff like this. Maybe it's just me. I mean, we've all had our pet hates and usually for much worse reasons than Nunez, and maybe I'm just a bit past all of this, but yeah. It's not helpful is it?

I think it's set of fans who feels shouting and abusing someone make some one perform better. Tried it on sidelines of youth football and cricket, it certainly doesn't. It maybe because they feel players are on a whole load of money, some feel they are entitled to abuse them and use them as punch bags for their own escape but it does make me uncomfortable regardless of how he is doing. Especially to the fact, the lad had to go and delete his public profile. No one is intending to go out there and be so crap but it happens.

 

[StevieM]

I don't know why people have to resort to stuff like this. Maybe it's just me. I mean, we've all had our pet hates and usually for much worse reasons than Nunez, and maybe I'm just a bit past all of this, but yeah. It's not helpful is it?

Yeah… this site just loves extremes.

I’m not Darwin’s biggest fan, but I still wouldn’t sell him unless he wanted to go or we got an unbelievable offer for him.

I still can’t get my head around this time of year - half the site spends the season gurning about not having a big enough squad or that we can’t possibly compete on all 4 fronts or that we don’t give the youths enough opportunity or that we’ll not win anything playing the kids…. And then the same people start double gurning about how we have to sell half the team. The same gurners will be wanting to send about 15 of the kids out on loan too before double gurning they’re not good enough because we sent them out on loan.

Given the players leaving who are out of contract, we have 7 senior positions to fill.

How about get like… really radical…. And keep all the players we have and figure out how to build on that squad by bringing in additional players so we can compete on 4 fronts?

 

[rubans]

No, that's too sensible.
We have always been stuck in not being truly mega club cash wise mentality but also this notion of let's follow Brighton but also not wanting to give possible their bulk buys a go at the same time (not sure how sustainable Brighton approach is especially with LFC fan expectations). In addition, also let's sell our experienced aging players who are still valuable to raise cash for the next 20yr old whom would need time to bed in. Repeat this thought process throughout the season depending on how we are doing.

 

[keniget]

It was obvious very early on that he wasn't good enough and that's entirely on us.

It was a weird purchase - too expensive, too raw, doesn't really fit the system etc.

We could spend the next 100 pages dissecting stats, trying to determine under which conditions Nunez might actually come good but the general rule of thumb is that when a player generates this much debate, it means he's not good enough... or if you're being charitable, we can do better.

I'm very much over this season and it's problems.

Hopefully Edwards, Slot and co do what's required so we can have less Lucas type discussions.

 

[MomoWASright]

Yeah… this site just loves extremes.

I’m not Darwin’s biggest fan, but I still wouldn’t sell him unless he wanted to go or we got an unbelievable offer for him.

I still can’t get my head around this time of year - half the site spends the season gurning about not having a big enough squad or that we can’t possibly compete on all 4 fronts or that we don’t give the youths enough opportunity or that we’ll not win anything playing the kids…. And then the same people start double gurning about how we have to sell half the team. The same gurners will be wanting to send about 15 of the kids out on loan too before double gurning they’re not good enough because we sent them out on loan.

Given the players leaving who are out of contract, we have 7 senior positions to fill.

How about get like… really radical…. And keep all the players we have and figure out how to build on that squad by bringing in additional players so we can compete on 4 fronts?

Who are the ones out of contract? Matip & Thiago are the ones I can think of and you’re stretching it to say Thiago has a senior position to fill. I’m guessing the 3 of the other 5 could be sub GK, LB and DM. What are the other 2?

I don’t want to be here in 12 months time missing out on a trophy thinking about the big misses Nunez has made. My radical thinking is to stop showing loyalty to players who do not make the grade. I would like the club to maximise it’s potential and if selling Nunez and any other of the forwards and bringing others in contributes to that then so be it. I don’t want a space filled up by someone who doesn’t have the composure to help us win shiny things.

 

[Markeh]

It was obvious very early on that he wasn't good enough and that's entirely on us.

It was a weird purchase - too expensive, too raw, doesn't really fit the system etc.

We could spend the next 100 pages dissecting stats, trying to determine under which conditions Nunez might actually come good but the general rule of thumb is that when a player generates this much debate, it means he's not good enough... or if you're being charitable, we can do better.

I'm very much over this season and it's problems.

Hopefully Edwards, Slot and co do what's required so we can have less Lucas type discussions.

i’m starting to think he had his ‘newcastle’ performance against us in the CL

 

[rurikbird]

I beg to differ:

Oscar Bobb has played 287 minutes in the league. Rico Lewis has played 400 minutes.

Quansah (debut season) 1009 mins, Bradley (debut season) 741 mins, Elliott 1178 mins.

I also want to add that Quansah has not been playing “by necessity” - Matip got injured before the January transfer window and we could have easily bought or loaned an experienced defender as stop-gap replacement. The fact that we didn’t shows that Klopp chose to put his trust in Quansah - so he should absolutely count alongside Trent, Jones and Elliott as Academy kids Klopp brought through to the 1st team.

 

[MomoWASright]

We were never going to sign anyone in January as Klopp had told the club he was leaving.

 

[Brizzle]

He's a luxury player in a front line where we can't support luxury, as our main goalscorer is in rapid decline, our 'best finisher' is injured every 5-7 games and our other attackers are seemingly 1 in 4, 1 in 5 players.

 

[Farkmaster]

Eh?

The same Ben Doak that’s 18, and had 10 appearances for Liverpool - mostly as a sub???

Those games were mostly as a 17 yo.

That’s “given enough chances” in your book.

Sorry - that’s codswallop.

Ok. I think those were his chance. It's a cruel game and there's some luck involved. He had to show more in those games, not to be a good professional footballer, not to make decent money, not to succeed someplace, but to just break through in the way that we were discussing about. That's very rare and requires luck, and for you to nail the chance. Doak looked not ready. He probably won't get another big chance here.

 

[mark1975]

It was obvious very early on that he wasn't good enough and that's entirely on us.

It was a weird purchase - too expensive, too raw, doesn't really fit the system etc.

We could spend the next 100 pages dissecting stats, trying to determine under which conditions Nunez might actually come good but the general rule of thumb is that when a player generates this much debate, it means he's not good enough... or if you're being charitable, we can do better.

I'm very much over this season and it's problems.

Hopefully Edwards, Slot and co do what's required so we can have less Lucas type discussions.

I don't think Nunez is necessarily a Lucas type discussion, and I've seen this mentioned now a few times in recent days. Maybe you can level that at someone like Gapko who *has* for the large part been ordinary, but even he has had his moments. Lucas was effective without being particularly brilliant at anything. I think the difference with attackers is that they have moments of brilliance that can blindside you, but anyway. Nunez when he's been good has sometimes looked unplayable. I can't really see any parallel between him and Lucas, other than creating divisive opinions, but it's for completely different reasons. Nunez has had no in between - he's either looked really good or really bad, Lucas was a steady Eddie who did an ok job.

 

[Fabio]

I beg to differ:

Oscar Bobb has played 287 minutes in the league. Rico Lewis has played 400 minutes.

Quansah (debut season) 1009 mins, Bradley (debut season) 741 mins, Elliott 1178 mins.

To counter that:

Oscar Bobb has played 287 minutes in the league. Rico Lewis has played 400 minutes.
Given minutes due to no injury issues

Quansah (debut season) 1009 mins, Bradley (debut season) 741 mins, Elliott 1178 mins.
All minutes given due to injury necessity, except Elliott, who probably would have half as many if everyone was fit

 

[Fabio]

I also want to add that Quansah has not been playing “by necessity” - Matip got injured before the January transfer window and we could have easily bought or loaned an experienced defender as stop-gap replacement. The fact that we didn’t shows that Klopp chose to put his trust in Quansah - so he should absolutely count alongside Trent, Jones and Elliott as Academy kids Klopp brought through to the 1st team.

Nah. Not buying that. Quansah would have a lot less minutes if konate was fit consistently and matip wasnt dead. And we never buy anyone in Jan unless we're strong armed in to it by other teams buying our targets (like Diaz and gakpo). Jones and Elliott klopps done everything in his power to not give them minutes. Gakpo in midfield, buying 3 8s last summer.

 

[dogboy]

the airport guy?

No, the jealous one.

 

[StevieM]

Ok. I think those were his chance. It's a cruel game and there's some luck involved. He had to show more in those games, not to be a good professional footballer, not to make decent money, not to succeed someplace, but to just break through in the way that we were discussing about. That's very rare and requires luck, and for you to nail the chance. Doak looked not ready. He probably won't get another big chance here.

Utter tosh.

 

[StevieM]

Who are the ones out of contract? Matip & Thiago are the ones I can think of and you’re stretching it to say Thiago has a senior position to fill. I’m guessing the 3 of the other 5 could be sub GK, LB and DM. What are the other 2?

I don’t want to be here in 12 months time missing out on a trophy thinking about the big misses Nunez has made. My radical thinking is to stop showing loyalty to players who do not make the grade. I would like the club to maximise it’s potential and if selling Nunez and any other of the forwards and bringing others in contributes to that then so be it. I don’t want a space filled up by someone who doesn’t have the composure to help us win shiny things.

Adrian is the other, plus we have 4 Home Grown spots.

It’s not a stretch - Adrian, Matip & Thiago were register to play - that’s the 3 overseas spots we have to play with.

Sign a CB, a DM and a forward.

I don’t want to be sitting here in 22 months time reading people gurning about squad depth not being enough.

Darwin should only be a key player if his performances warrant it - otherwise I’m happy for him to be expensive Divock.

 

[tombrown]

What would we do without the "overseas quota guru"? 😆