I am perplexed by this team. How can we show some solidity in midfield and beat chelsea, then get run over by the likes of wigan in midfield and look utterly toothless against stoke?
Stoke Away
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[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=42710.msg1217707#msg1217707 date=1289676573]
Stoke are now ahead of us in the league.
[/quote]
At least we didn't lose to a poor team then...?
Stoke are now ahead of us in the league.
[/quote]
At least we didn't lose to a poor team then...?
[quote author=cobrastatus link=topic=42710.msg1217727#msg1217727 date=1289676833]
I am perplexed by this team. How can we show some solidity in midfield and beat chelsea, then get run over by the likes of wigan in midfield and look utterly toothless against stoke?
[/quote]
Because really good teams with really good coaches do it every week because they are fit, motivated, talented winners.
Our team is mostly made up of exhausted, weedy, unmotivated, talentless losers.
And that's a slight exaggeration.
I am perplexed by this team. How can we show some solidity in midfield and beat chelsea, then get run over by the likes of wigan in midfield and look utterly toothless against stoke?
[/quote]
Because really good teams with really good coaches do it every week because they are fit, motivated, talented winners.
Our team is mostly made up of exhausted, weedy, unmotivated, talentless losers.
And that's a slight exaggeration.
.. and once again, we look toothless and clueless going forward UNTIL we go a goal down, when we start to string a few passes together.
Whilst it's obvious we need some much better attacking players, I think we need an entirely new defence too.
One that can deal with pace (thus not be scared to play high up against Wigan), can head (and deal with teams like Stoke) and play the ball out of defence (again, dealing with the shit teams and not simply giving it back to them every 10seonds, because they put a little bit of pressure on us high up the pitch).
Whilst it's obvious we need some much better attacking players, I think we need an entirely new defence too.
One that can deal with pace (thus not be scared to play high up against Wigan), can head (and deal with teams like Stoke) and play the ball out of defence (again, dealing with the shit teams and not simply giving it back to them every 10seonds, because they put a little bit of pressure on us high up the pitch).
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=42710.msg1217733#msg1217733 date=1289676992]
.. and once again, we look toothless and clueless going forward UNTIL we go a goal down, when we start to string a few passes together.
Whilst it's obvious we need some much better attacking players, I think we need an entirely new defence too.
One that can deal with pace (thus not be scared to play high up against Wigan), can head (and deal with teams like Stoke) and play the ball out of defence (again, dealing with the shit teams and not simply giving it back to them every 10seonds, because they put a little bit of pressure on us high up the pitch).
[/quote]
It's amazing that we've built a defence with no obvious strength, but loads of weaknesses
.. and once again, we look toothless and clueless going forward UNTIL we go a goal down, when we start to string a few passes together.
Whilst it's obvious we need some much better attacking players, I think we need an entirely new defence too.
One that can deal with pace (thus not be scared to play high up against Wigan), can head (and deal with teams like Stoke) and play the ball out of defence (again, dealing with the shit teams and not simply giving it back to them every 10seonds, because they put a little bit of pressure on us high up the pitch).
[/quote]
It's amazing that we've built a defence with no obvious strength, but loads of weaknesses
[quote author=the_dude link=topic=42710.msg1217737#msg1217737 date=1289677042]
passing was awful. movement was non-existent. it seems to me as though a lot of the team make a conscious effort to get into positions which stop them from being passed to.
[/quote]
Yea, a lot of cowards and losers in our team.
passing was awful. movement was non-existent. it seems to me as though a lot of the team make a conscious effort to get into positions which stop them from being passed to.
[/quote]
Yea, a lot of cowards and losers in our team.
[quote author=the_dude link=topic=42710.msg1217737#msg1217737 date=1289677042]
passing was awful. movement was non-existent. it seems to me as though a lot of the team make a conscious effort to get into positions which stop them from being passed to.
[/quote]
Too true. And not for the first time this season.
passing was awful. movement was non-existent. it seems to me as though a lot of the team make a conscious effort to get into positions which stop them from being passed to.
[/quote]
Too true. And not for the first time this season.
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=42710.msg1217743#msg1217743 date=1289677189]
14 games played goal difference -3
LIVERPOOL FOOTBALL CLUB.
That is fucking staggering.
[/quote]
-4 actually.
14 games played goal difference -3
LIVERPOOL FOOTBALL CLUB.
That is fucking staggering.
[/quote]
-4 actually.
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=42710.msg1217742#msg1217742 date=1289677126]
[quote author=the_dude link=topic=42710.msg1217737#msg1217737 date=1289677042]
passing was awful. movement was non-existent. it seems to me as though a lot of the team make a conscious effort to get into positions which stop them from being passed to.
[/quote]
Yea, a lot of cowards and losers in our team.
[/quote]
to add to that, the teams movement off the ball is so fucking terrible. stoke were sticking to our men and pressing down every player. if the team had any brains going forward you would use that to create gaps and dismantle their defence. they are not a good team
[quote author=the_dude link=topic=42710.msg1217737#msg1217737 date=1289677042]
passing was awful. movement was non-existent. it seems to me as though a lot of the team make a conscious effort to get into positions which stop them from being passed to.
[/quote]
Yea, a lot of cowards and losers in our team.
[/quote]
to add to that, the teams movement off the ball is so fucking terrible. stoke were sticking to our men and pressing down every player. if the team had any brains going forward you would use that to create gaps and dismantle their defence. they are not a good team
Stoke striker Ricardo Fuller: "That's our result of the season so far, definitely. Today was very, very difficult because Liverpool are a great team and are getting back to their best, so it took a tremendous effort from us to do a job on them today."
Ha ha ha.
Ha ha ha.
[quote author=the_dude link=topic=42710.msg1217737#msg1217737 date=1289677042]
passing was awful. movement was non-existent. it seems to me as though a lot of the team make a conscious effort to get into positions which stop them from being passed to.
[/quote]
Just a couple examples (and not trying to pick on particular players):
Towards the end, Gerrard looked like he was going on a drive to try to make something happen (seemed to me he didn't feel passing it anywhere was a good idea). N'Gog ended up basically getting in his way then struggling to move into space. The ball eventually came back to Carra for a high cross into the box that was cleared because Gerrard couldn't break into space with three defenders around him.
A couple nice touches led to a break out of our pass. Carra is bombing down the wing and Kuyt lays the ball out for him. The pass is slightly underhit and instead of bursting forward with it, Carra brings the ball to a dead stop, allows Stoke to catch up, then fires a crossfield ball to no one in particular. (Not that there were many options for him.)
passing was awful. movement was non-existent. it seems to me as though a lot of the team make a conscious effort to get into positions which stop them from being passed to.
[/quote]
Just a couple examples (and not trying to pick on particular players):
Towards the end, Gerrard looked like he was going on a drive to try to make something happen (seemed to me he didn't feel passing it anywhere was a good idea). N'Gog ended up basically getting in his way then struggling to move into space. The ball eventually came back to Carra for a high cross into the box that was cleared because Gerrard couldn't break into space with three defenders around him.
A couple nice touches led to a break out of our pass. Carra is bombing down the wing and Kuyt lays the ball out for him. The pass is slightly underhit and instead of bursting forward with it, Carra brings the ball to a dead stop, allows Stoke to catch up, then fires a crossfield ball to no one in particular. (Not that there were many options for him.)
[quote author=darkstarexodus link=topic=42710.msg1217752#msg1217752 date=1289677370]
[quote author=the_dude link=topic=42710.msg1217737#msg1217737 date=1289677042]
passing was awful. movement was non-existent. it seems to me as though a lot of the team make a conscious effort to get into positions which stop them from being passed to.
[/quote]
Just a couple examples (and not trying to pick on particular players):
Towards the end, Gerrard looked like he was going on a drive to try to make something happen (seemed to me he didn't feel passing it anywhere was a good idea). N'Gog ended up basically getting in his way then struggling to move into space. The ball eventually came back to Carra for a high cross into the box that was cleared because Gerrard couldn't break into space with three defenders around him.
A couple nice touches led to a break out of our pass. Carra is bombing down the wing and Kuyt lays the ball out for him. The pass is slightly underhit and instead of bursting forward with it, Carra brings the ball to a dead stop, allows Stoke to catch up, then fires a crossfield ball to no one in particular. (Not that there were many options for him.)
[/quote]
You have a point but it's hard to begrudge Carra, he's just utterly useless with the ball at his feet. I have never ever seen him take a man on and try to beat him at RB, and that's probably for a good reason - he should not be playing there. That's a Hodgson mistake in my opinion.
[quote author=the_dude link=topic=42710.msg1217737#msg1217737 date=1289677042]
passing was awful. movement was non-existent. it seems to me as though a lot of the team make a conscious effort to get into positions which stop them from being passed to.
[/quote]
Just a couple examples (and not trying to pick on particular players):
Towards the end, Gerrard looked like he was going on a drive to try to make something happen (seemed to me he didn't feel passing it anywhere was a good idea). N'Gog ended up basically getting in his way then struggling to move into space. The ball eventually came back to Carra for a high cross into the box that was cleared because Gerrard couldn't break into space with three defenders around him.
A couple nice touches led to a break out of our pass. Carra is bombing down the wing and Kuyt lays the ball out for him. The pass is slightly underhit and instead of bursting forward with it, Carra brings the ball to a dead stop, allows Stoke to catch up, then fires a crossfield ball to no one in particular. (Not that there were many options for him.)
[/quote]
You have a point but it's hard to begrudge Carra, he's just utterly useless with the ball at his feet. I have never ever seen him take a man on and try to beat him at RB, and that's probably for a good reason - he should not be playing there. That's a Hodgson mistake in my opinion.
[quote author=darkstarexodus link=topic=42710.msg1217752#msg1217752 date=1289677370]
[quote author=the_dude link=topic=42710.msg1217737#msg1217737 date=1289677042]
passing was awful. movement was non-existent. it seems to me as though a lot of the team make a conscious effort to get into positions which stop them from being passed to.
[/quote]
Just a couple examples (and not trying to pick on particular players):
Towards the end, Gerrard looked like he was going on a drive to try to make something happen (seemed to me he didn't feel passing it anywhere was a good idea). N'Gog ended up basically getting in his way then struggling to move into space. The ball eventually came back to Carra for a high cross into the box that was cleared because Gerrard couldn't break into space with three defenders around him.
A couple nice touches led to a break out of our pass. Carra is bombing down the wing and Kuyt lays the ball out for him. The pass is slightly underhit and instead of bursting forward with it, Carra brings the ball to a dead stop, allows Stoke to catch up, then fires a crossfield ball to no one in particular. (Not that there were many options for him.)
[/quote]
They're not examples of what The Dude is talking about though. Weird you should bring Wash into it because, whatever his failings (going down too easily, inconsistency etc), not wanting the ball is not one of them. I think, in the bit you mention, that he was really trying to help Gerrard, but Gerrard clearly doesn't trust him and wanted to get the ball straight to Torres. Probably a bad decision, but understandable given the state of the game at that point.
[quote author=the_dude link=topic=42710.msg1217737#msg1217737 date=1289677042]
passing was awful. movement was non-existent. it seems to me as though a lot of the team make a conscious effort to get into positions which stop them from being passed to.
[/quote]
Just a couple examples (and not trying to pick on particular players):
Towards the end, Gerrard looked like he was going on a drive to try to make something happen (seemed to me he didn't feel passing it anywhere was a good idea). N'Gog ended up basically getting in his way then struggling to move into space. The ball eventually came back to Carra for a high cross into the box that was cleared because Gerrard couldn't break into space with three defenders around him.
A couple nice touches led to a break out of our pass. Carra is bombing down the wing and Kuyt lays the ball out for him. The pass is slightly underhit and instead of bursting forward with it, Carra brings the ball to a dead stop, allows Stoke to catch up, then fires a crossfield ball to no one in particular. (Not that there were many options for him.)
[/quote]
They're not examples of what The Dude is talking about though. Weird you should bring Wash into it because, whatever his failings (going down too easily, inconsistency etc), not wanting the ball is not one of them. I think, in the bit you mention, that he was really trying to help Gerrard, but Gerrard clearly doesn't trust him and wanted to get the ball straight to Torres. Probably a bad decision, but understandable given the state of the game at that point.
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42710.msg1217739#msg1217739 date=1289677066]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=42710.msg1217733#msg1217733 date=1289676992]
.. and once again, we look toothless and clueless going forward UNTIL we go a goal down, when we start to string a few passes together.
Whilst it's obvious we need some much better attacking players, I think we need an entirely new defence too.
One that can deal with pace (thus not be scared to play high up against Wigan), can head (and deal with teams like Stoke) and play the ball out of defence (again, dealing with the shit teams and not simply giving it back to them every 10seonds, because they put a little bit of pressure on us high up the pitch).
[/quote]
It's amazing that we've built a defence with no obvious strength, but loads of weaknesses
[/quote]
Yep. You look at:
Arsenal - a somewhat pacey back line with skill - but it's a defence that can deal with teams with pace (the Wigans').. and hence their team can play high up the pitch and also knock it across the back 4 knowing they have the skill/comfort to keep it.. they usually struggle against the likes of Stoke, who batter them with physicality and throw-ins.
United - a completely balanced defence - defenders who can run, head, get stuck in, play it out of defence and get forward - you have to be good to get at their back line.. and their defenders have the skill to play forward passes that would put some of our attacking midfielders to shame.
Chelsea - total physical defence - strong defenders who are simply good at defending, especially dealing with things aerially - they can also, with their FBs, get forward when necessary and have the skill to play the ball out of defence - again, a good balance. Admittedly, there is a slight pace weakness (since Boswinga was demoted and Carvalho left) - but it's made up for by the fact they have such a great midfield and it's hard to get at their defence anyway.
Us - slow, not particularly good in the air, and very poor at playing the ball out of defence.. also there's just a general lack of skill in the majority of our defenders whenever they venture past the half way line with the ball.. there just seems to be a big caveat with each one of our defenders.. it's balance of weaknesses in our defence, as opposed to strengths.
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=42710.msg1217733#msg1217733 date=1289676992]
.. and once again, we look toothless and clueless going forward UNTIL we go a goal down, when we start to string a few passes together.
Whilst it's obvious we need some much better attacking players, I think we need an entirely new defence too.
One that can deal with pace (thus not be scared to play high up against Wigan), can head (and deal with teams like Stoke) and play the ball out of defence (again, dealing with the shit teams and not simply giving it back to them every 10seonds, because they put a little bit of pressure on us high up the pitch).
[/quote]
It's amazing that we've built a defence with no obvious strength, but loads of weaknesses
[/quote]
Yep. You look at:
Arsenal - a somewhat pacey back line with skill - but it's a defence that can deal with teams with pace (the Wigans').. and hence their team can play high up the pitch and also knock it across the back 4 knowing they have the skill/comfort to keep it.. they usually struggle against the likes of Stoke, who batter them with physicality and throw-ins.
United - a completely balanced defence - defenders who can run, head, get stuck in, play it out of defence and get forward - you have to be good to get at their back line.. and their defenders have the skill to play forward passes that would put some of our attacking midfielders to shame.
Chelsea - total physical defence - strong defenders who are simply good at defending, especially dealing with things aerially - they can also, with their FBs, get forward when necessary and have the skill to play the ball out of defence - again, a good balance. Admittedly, there is a slight pace weakness (since Boswinga was demoted and Carvalho left) - but it's made up for by the fact they have such a great midfield and it's hard to get at their defence anyway.
Us - slow, not particularly good in the air, and very poor at playing the ball out of defence.. also there's just a general lack of skill in the majority of our defenders whenever they venture past the half way line with the ball.. there just seems to be a big caveat with each one of our defenders.. it's balance of weaknesses in our defence, as opposed to strengths.
[quote author=cobrastatus link=topic=42710.msg1217766#msg1217766 date=1289677722]
[quote author=darkstarexodus link=topic=42710.msg1217752#msg1217752 date=1289677370]
[quote author=the_dude link=topic=42710.msg1217737#msg1217737 date=1289677042]
passing was awful. movement was non-existent. it seems to me as though a lot of the team make a conscious effort to get into positions which stop them from being passed to.
[/quote]
Just a couple examples (and not trying to pick on particular players):
Towards the end, Gerrard looked like he was going on a drive to try to make something happen (seemed to me he didn't feel passing it anywhere was a good idea). N'Gog ended up basically getting in his way then struggling to move into space. The ball eventually came back to Carra for a high cross into the box that was cleared because Gerrard couldn't break into space with three defenders around him.
A couple nice touches led to a break out of our pass. Carra is bombing down the wing and Kuyt lays the ball out for him. The pass is slightly underhit and instead of bursting forward with it, Carra brings the ball to a dead stop, allows Stoke to catch up, then fires a crossfield ball to no one in particular. (Not that there were many options for him.)
[/quote]
You have a point but it's hard to begrudge Carra, he's just utterly useless with the ball at his feet. I have never ever seen him take a man on and try to beat him at RB, and that's probably for a good reason - he should not be playing there. That's a Hodgson mistake in my opinion.
[/quote]
Maybe Carra should have refused to play there *again*. Decent stopper, awful footballer.
[quote author=darkstarexodus link=topic=42710.msg1217752#msg1217752 date=1289677370]
[quote author=the_dude link=topic=42710.msg1217737#msg1217737 date=1289677042]
passing was awful. movement was non-existent. it seems to me as though a lot of the team make a conscious effort to get into positions which stop them from being passed to.
[/quote]
Just a couple examples (and not trying to pick on particular players):
Towards the end, Gerrard looked like he was going on a drive to try to make something happen (seemed to me he didn't feel passing it anywhere was a good idea). N'Gog ended up basically getting in his way then struggling to move into space. The ball eventually came back to Carra for a high cross into the box that was cleared because Gerrard couldn't break into space with three defenders around him.
A couple nice touches led to a break out of our pass. Carra is bombing down the wing and Kuyt lays the ball out for him. The pass is slightly underhit and instead of bursting forward with it, Carra brings the ball to a dead stop, allows Stoke to catch up, then fires a crossfield ball to no one in particular. (Not that there were many options for him.)
[/quote]
You have a point but it's hard to begrudge Carra, he's just utterly useless with the ball at his feet. I have never ever seen him take a man on and try to beat him at RB, and that's probably for a good reason - he should not be playing there. That's a Hodgson mistake in my opinion.
[/quote]
Maybe Carra should have refused to play there *again*. Decent stopper, awful footballer.
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=42710.msg1217769#msg1217769 date=1289677762]
[quote author=darkstarexodus link=topic=42710.msg1217752#msg1217752 date=1289677370]
[quote author=the_dude link=topic=42710.msg1217737#msg1217737 date=1289677042]
passing was awful. movement was non-existent. it seems to me as though a lot of the team make a conscious effort to get into positions which stop them from being passed to.
[/quote]
Just a couple examples (and not trying to pick on particular players):
Towards the end, Gerrard looked like he was going on a drive to try to make something happen (seemed to me he didn't feel passing it anywhere was a good idea). N'Gog ended up basically getting in his way then struggling to move into space. The ball eventually came back to Carra for a high cross into the box that was cleared because Gerrard couldn't break into space with three defenders around him.
A couple nice touches led to a break out of our pass. Carra is bombing down the wing and Kuyt lays the ball out for him. The pass is slightly underhit and instead of bursting forward with it, Carra brings the ball to a dead stop, allows Stoke to catch up, then fires a crossfield ball to no one in particular. (Not that there were many options for him.)
[/quote]
They're not examples of what The Dude is talking about though. Weird you should bring Wash into it because, whatever his failings (going down too easily, inconsistency etc), not wanting the ball is not one of them. I think, in the bit you mention, that he was really trying to help Gerrard, but Gerrard clearly doesn't trust him and wanted to get the ball straight to Torres. Probably a bad decision, but understandable given the state of the game at that point.
[/quote]
for me it's the fact that certain players occupying positions where they are responsible for linking up play tend to hide behind a player from the opposite team and it instantly limits the options of the player on the ball. i think it's why there seem to be so many long balls being played due to complete lack of options. problem here is that maybe 2 of our players can provide long balls of any quality but regardless, that's not how we should be playing the game. from what i've seen this season, even if we do get a couple of good wingers it won't solve the issue in the centre of the pitch. i wish alonso still played for us
[quote author=darkstarexodus link=topic=42710.msg1217752#msg1217752 date=1289677370]
[quote author=the_dude link=topic=42710.msg1217737#msg1217737 date=1289677042]
passing was awful. movement was non-existent. it seems to me as though a lot of the team make a conscious effort to get into positions which stop them from being passed to.
[/quote]
Just a couple examples (and not trying to pick on particular players):
Towards the end, Gerrard looked like he was going on a drive to try to make something happen (seemed to me he didn't feel passing it anywhere was a good idea). N'Gog ended up basically getting in his way then struggling to move into space. The ball eventually came back to Carra for a high cross into the box that was cleared because Gerrard couldn't break into space with three defenders around him.
A couple nice touches led to a break out of our pass. Carra is bombing down the wing and Kuyt lays the ball out for him. The pass is slightly underhit and instead of bursting forward with it, Carra brings the ball to a dead stop, allows Stoke to catch up, then fires a crossfield ball to no one in particular. (Not that there were many options for him.)
[/quote]
They're not examples of what The Dude is talking about though. Weird you should bring Wash into it because, whatever his failings (going down too easily, inconsistency etc), not wanting the ball is not one of them. I think, in the bit you mention, that he was really trying to help Gerrard, but Gerrard clearly doesn't trust him and wanted to get the ball straight to Torres. Probably a bad decision, but understandable given the state of the game at that point.
[/quote]
for me it's the fact that certain players occupying positions where they are responsible for linking up play tend to hide behind a player from the opposite team and it instantly limits the options of the player on the ball. i think it's why there seem to be so many long balls being played due to complete lack of options. problem here is that maybe 2 of our players can provide long balls of any quality but regardless, that's not how we should be playing the game. from what i've seen this season, even if we do get a couple of good wingers it won't solve the issue in the centre of the pitch. i wish alonso still played for us
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=42710.msg1217769#msg1217769 date=1289677762]
[quote author=darkstarexodus link=topic=42710.msg1217752#msg1217752 date=1289677370]
[quote author=the_dude link=topic=42710.msg1217737#msg1217737 date=1289677042]
passing was awful. movement was non-existent. it seems to me as though a lot of the team make a conscious effort to get into positions which stop them from being passed to.
[/quote]
Just a couple examples (and not trying to pick on particular players):
Towards the end, Gerrard looked like he was going on a drive to try to make something happen (seemed to me he didn't feel passing it anywhere was a good idea). N'Gog ended up basically getting in his way then struggling to move into space. The ball eventually came back to Carra for a high cross into the box that was cleared because Gerrard couldn't break into space with three defenders around him.
A couple nice touches led to a break out of our pass. Carra is bombing down the wing and Kuyt lays the ball out for him. The pass is slightly underhit and instead of bursting forward with it, Carra brings the ball to a dead stop, allows Stoke to catch up, then fires a crossfield ball to no one in particular. (Not that there were many options for him.)
[/quote]
They're not examples of what The Dude is talking about though. Weird you should bring Wash into it because, whatever his failings (going down too easily, inconsistency etc), not wanting the ball is not one of them. I think, in the bit you mention, that he was really trying to help Gerrard, but Gerrard clearly doesn't trust him and wanted to get the ball straight to Torres. Probably a bad decision, but understandable given the state of the game at that point.
[/quote]
I agree with you completely and maybe I just wasn't clear with what I was insinuating. Gerrard was trying to do it all himself (understandably to an extent), Wash wanted to get into position to help but they couldn't get on the same wavelength and ended up basically tripping over each other. Not trying to get on N'Gog's case, just the lack of mutual understanding on the team as a whole.
Cobra:He tried to take on a man and beat him about two or three minutes after the incident I mentioned. He was taken down and the foul not given. He's not suited to provide offensive support from the flanks and shouldn't be played there.
[quote author=darkstarexodus link=topic=42710.msg1217752#msg1217752 date=1289677370]
[quote author=the_dude link=topic=42710.msg1217737#msg1217737 date=1289677042]
passing was awful. movement was non-existent. it seems to me as though a lot of the team make a conscious effort to get into positions which stop them from being passed to.
[/quote]
Just a couple examples (and not trying to pick on particular players):
Towards the end, Gerrard looked like he was going on a drive to try to make something happen (seemed to me he didn't feel passing it anywhere was a good idea). N'Gog ended up basically getting in his way then struggling to move into space. The ball eventually came back to Carra for a high cross into the box that was cleared because Gerrard couldn't break into space with three defenders around him.
A couple nice touches led to a break out of our pass. Carra is bombing down the wing and Kuyt lays the ball out for him. The pass is slightly underhit and instead of bursting forward with it, Carra brings the ball to a dead stop, allows Stoke to catch up, then fires a crossfield ball to no one in particular. (Not that there were many options for him.)
[/quote]
They're not examples of what The Dude is talking about though. Weird you should bring Wash into it because, whatever his failings (going down too easily, inconsistency etc), not wanting the ball is not one of them. I think, in the bit you mention, that he was really trying to help Gerrard, but Gerrard clearly doesn't trust him and wanted to get the ball straight to Torres. Probably a bad decision, but understandable given the state of the game at that point.
[/quote]
I agree with you completely and maybe I just wasn't clear with what I was insinuating. Gerrard was trying to do it all himself (understandably to an extent), Wash wanted to get into position to help but they couldn't get on the same wavelength and ended up basically tripping over each other. Not trying to get on N'Gog's case, just the lack of mutual understanding on the team as a whole.
Cobra:He tried to take on a man and beat him about two or three minutes after the incident I mentioned. He was taken down and the foul not given. He's not suited to provide offensive support from the flanks and shouldn't be played there.
I'm just so fucking fed up of this shite. Hodgson is a born and bred loser. A loser manager cannot inspire players to believe in his tactics and inspire them to achieve things. He's had his crowning glory in a 30yr career of getting to a final and losing. That was his summit, his swansong before what should have been retirement and a job with the FA conducting seminars to non-league coaches on 4-4-2.
His signing of Polusen & Konchesky are two of the worst players I have ever seen in a red shirt and the one decent player he buys, he plays out of position in favour of the cunt Lucas.
Fuck off now and take Lee with you........you cunt.
His signing of Polusen & Konchesky are two of the worst players I have ever seen in a red shirt and the one decent player he buys, he plays out of position in favour of the cunt Lucas.
Fuck off now and take Lee with you........you cunt.
[quote author=darkstarexodus link=topic=42710.msg1217782#msg1217782 date=1289678190]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=42710.msg1217769#msg1217769 date=1289677762]
[quote author=darkstarexodus link=topic=42710.msg1217752#msg1217752 date=1289677370]
[quote author=the_dude link=topic=42710.msg1217737#msg1217737 date=1289677042]
passing was awful. movement was non-existent. it seems to me as though a lot of the team make a conscious effort to get into positions which stop them from being passed to.
[/quote]
Just a couple examples (and not trying to pick on particular players):
Towards the end, Gerrard looked like he was going on a drive to try to make something happen (seemed to me he didn't feel passing it anywhere was a good idea). N'Gog ended up basically getting in his way then struggling to move into space. The ball eventually came back to Carra for a high cross into the box that was cleared because Gerrard couldn't break into space with three defenders around him.
A couple nice touches led to a break out of our pass. Carra is bombing down the wing and Kuyt lays the ball out for him. The pass is slightly underhit and instead of bursting forward with it, Carra brings the ball to a dead stop, allows Stoke to catch up, then fires a crossfield ball to no one in particular. (Not that there were many options for him.)
[/quote]
They're not examples of what The Dude is talking about though. Weird you should bring Wash into it because, whatever his failings (going down too easily, inconsistency etc), not wanting the ball is not one of them. I think, in the bit you mention, that he was really trying to help Gerrard, but Gerrard clearly doesn't trust him and wanted to get the ball straight to Torres. Probably a bad decision, but understandable given the state of the game at that point.
[/quote]
I agree with you completely and maybe I just wasn't clear with what I was insinuating. Gerrard was trying to do it all himself (understandably to an extent), Wash wanted to get into position to help but they couldn't get on the same wavelength and ended up basically tripping over each other. Not trying to get on N'Gog's case, just the lack of mutual understanding on the team as a whole.
Cobra:He tried to take on a man and beat him about two or three minutes after the incident I mentioned. He was taken down and the foul not given. He's not suited to provide offensive support from the flanks and shouldn't be played there.
[/quote]
I think he can put in a fine shift against teams where we don't need him to get forward, but against Stoke, it simply isn't enough to come forward with the ball and stop immediately when you run into the first defender and shy away from 1on1 situations. He simply can't be played there against teams that park the bus.
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=42710.msg1217769#msg1217769 date=1289677762]
[quote author=darkstarexodus link=topic=42710.msg1217752#msg1217752 date=1289677370]
[quote author=the_dude link=topic=42710.msg1217737#msg1217737 date=1289677042]
passing was awful. movement was non-existent. it seems to me as though a lot of the team make a conscious effort to get into positions which stop them from being passed to.
[/quote]
Just a couple examples (and not trying to pick on particular players):
Towards the end, Gerrard looked like he was going on a drive to try to make something happen (seemed to me he didn't feel passing it anywhere was a good idea). N'Gog ended up basically getting in his way then struggling to move into space. The ball eventually came back to Carra for a high cross into the box that was cleared because Gerrard couldn't break into space with three defenders around him.
A couple nice touches led to a break out of our pass. Carra is bombing down the wing and Kuyt lays the ball out for him. The pass is slightly underhit and instead of bursting forward with it, Carra brings the ball to a dead stop, allows Stoke to catch up, then fires a crossfield ball to no one in particular. (Not that there were many options for him.)
[/quote]
They're not examples of what The Dude is talking about though. Weird you should bring Wash into it because, whatever his failings (going down too easily, inconsistency etc), not wanting the ball is not one of them. I think, in the bit you mention, that he was really trying to help Gerrard, but Gerrard clearly doesn't trust him and wanted to get the ball straight to Torres. Probably a bad decision, but understandable given the state of the game at that point.
[/quote]
I agree with you completely and maybe I just wasn't clear with what I was insinuating. Gerrard was trying to do it all himself (understandably to an extent), Wash wanted to get into position to help but they couldn't get on the same wavelength and ended up basically tripping over each other. Not trying to get on N'Gog's case, just the lack of mutual understanding on the team as a whole.
Cobra:He tried to take on a man and beat him about two or three minutes after the incident I mentioned. He was taken down and the foul not given. He's not suited to provide offensive support from the flanks and shouldn't be played there.
[/quote]
I think he can put in a fine shift against teams where we don't need him to get forward, but against Stoke, it simply isn't enough to come forward with the ball and stop immediately when you run into the first defender and shy away from 1on1 situations. He simply can't be played there against teams that park the bus.
[quote author=the_dude link=topic=42710.msg1217781#msg1217781 date=1289678105]
for me it's the fact that certain players occupying positions where they are responsible for linking up play tend to hide behind a player from the opposite team and it instantly limits the options of the player on the ball. i think it's why there seem to be so many long balls being played due to complete lack of options. problem here is that maybe 2 of our players can provide long balls of any quality but regardless, that's not how we should be playing the game. from what i've seen this season, even if we do get a couple of good wingers it won't solve the issue in the centre of the pitch. i wish alonso still played for us
[/quote]
Yes. There are no triangles, or pass and move. Our players, when they look for the ball at all, either try to get (literally) in behind the opposition, leaving no available pass. Or offer themselves for the sideways, no-progress pass.
On the rare occasion where our players do try to break for open space, we do create chances, as evidenced by Maxi's shot straight at the keeper.
for me it's the fact that certain players occupying positions where they are responsible for linking up play tend to hide behind a player from the opposite team and it instantly limits the options of the player on the ball. i think it's why there seem to be so many long balls being played due to complete lack of options. problem here is that maybe 2 of our players can provide long balls of any quality but regardless, that's not how we should be playing the game. from what i've seen this season, even if we do get a couple of good wingers it won't solve the issue in the centre of the pitch. i wish alonso still played for us
[/quote]
Yes. There are no triangles, or pass and move. Our players, when they look for the ball at all, either try to get (literally) in behind the opposition, leaving no available pass. Or offer themselves for the sideways, no-progress pass.
On the rare occasion where our players do try to break for open space, we do create chances, as evidenced by Maxi's shot straight at the keeper.
[quote author=cobrastatus link=topic=42710.msg1217787#msg1217787 date=1289678314]Cobra:He tried to take on a man and beat him about two or three minutes after the incident I mentioned. He was taken down and the foul not given. He's not suited to provide offensive support from the flanks and shouldn't be played there.
[/quote]
I think he can put in a fine shift against teams where we don't need him to get forward, but against Stoke, it simply isn't enough to come forward with the ball and stop immediately when you run into the first defender and shy away from 1on1 situations. He simply can't be played there against teams that park the bus.
[/quote]
Agree completely. But I don't really think he should be played there at all. We need fullbacks who can play against anyone. Johnson either needs to buckle down and find fitness and form again or we need to bring Kelly along. Kelly is looking a real blue-chipper and I'd rather see him there than Carra.
[/quote]
I think he can put in a fine shift against teams where we don't need him to get forward, but against Stoke, it simply isn't enough to come forward with the ball and stop immediately when you run into the first defender and shy away from 1on1 situations. He simply can't be played there against teams that park the bus.
[/quote]
Agree completely. But I don't really think he should be played there at all. We need fullbacks who can play against anyone. Johnson either needs to buckle down and find fitness and form again or we need to bring Kelly along. Kelly is looking a real blue-chipper and I'd rather see him there than Carra.
[quote author=cobrastatus link=topic=42710.msg1217787#msg1217787 date=1289678314]
[quote author=darkstarexodus link=topic=42710.msg1217782#msg1217782 date=1289678190]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=42710.msg1217769#msg1217769 date=1289677762]
[quote author=darkstarexodus link=topic=42710.msg1217752#msg1217752 date=1289677370]
[quote author=the_dude link=topic=42710.msg1217737#msg1217737 date=1289677042]
passing was awful. movement was non-existent. it seems to me as though a lot of the team make a conscious effort to get into positions which stop them from being passed to.
[/quote]
Just a couple examples (and not trying to pick on particular players):
Towards the end, Gerrard looked like he was going on a drive to try to make something happen (seemed to me he didn't feel passing it anywhere was a good idea). N'Gog ended up basically getting in his way then struggling to move into space. The ball eventually came back to Carra for a high cross into the box that was cleared because Gerrard couldn't break into space with three defenders around him.
A couple nice touches led to a break out of our pass. Carra is bombing down the wing and Kuyt lays the ball out for him. The pass is slightly underhit and instead of bursting forward with it, Carra brings the ball to a dead stop, allows Stoke to catch up, then fires a crossfield ball to no one in particular. (Not that there were many options for him.)
[/quote]
They're not examples of what The Dude is talking about though. Weird you should bring Wash into it because, whatever his failings (going down too easily, inconsistency etc), not wanting the ball is not one of them. I think, in the bit you mention, that he was really trying to help Gerrard, but Gerrard clearly doesn't trust him and wanted to get the ball straight to Torres. Probably a bad decision, but understandable given the state of the game at that point.
[/quote]
I agree with you completely and maybe I just wasn't clear with what I was insinuating. Gerrard was trying to do it all himself (understandably to an extent), Wash wanted to get into position to help but they couldn't get on the same wavelength and ended up basically tripping over each other. Not trying to get on N'Gog's case, just the lack of mutual understanding on the team as a whole.
Cobra:He tried to take on a man and beat him about two or three minutes after the incident I mentioned. He was taken down and the foul not given. He's not suited to provide offensive support from the flanks and shouldn't be played there.
[/quote]
I think he can put in a fine shift against teams where we don't need him to get forward, but against Stoke, it simply isn't enough to come forward with the ball and stop immediately when you run into the first defender and shy away from 1on1 situations. He simply can't be played there against teams that park the bus.
[/quote]
Park the bus? Stoke dominated almost the entire match. We were the ones parking the bus.
[quote author=darkstarexodus link=topic=42710.msg1217782#msg1217782 date=1289678190]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=42710.msg1217769#msg1217769 date=1289677762]
[quote author=darkstarexodus link=topic=42710.msg1217752#msg1217752 date=1289677370]
[quote author=the_dude link=topic=42710.msg1217737#msg1217737 date=1289677042]
passing was awful. movement was non-existent. it seems to me as though a lot of the team make a conscious effort to get into positions which stop them from being passed to.
[/quote]
Just a couple examples (and not trying to pick on particular players):
Towards the end, Gerrard looked like he was going on a drive to try to make something happen (seemed to me he didn't feel passing it anywhere was a good idea). N'Gog ended up basically getting in his way then struggling to move into space. The ball eventually came back to Carra for a high cross into the box that was cleared because Gerrard couldn't break into space with three defenders around him.
A couple nice touches led to a break out of our pass. Carra is bombing down the wing and Kuyt lays the ball out for him. The pass is slightly underhit and instead of bursting forward with it, Carra brings the ball to a dead stop, allows Stoke to catch up, then fires a crossfield ball to no one in particular. (Not that there were many options for him.)
[/quote]
They're not examples of what The Dude is talking about though. Weird you should bring Wash into it because, whatever his failings (going down too easily, inconsistency etc), not wanting the ball is not one of them. I think, in the bit you mention, that he was really trying to help Gerrard, but Gerrard clearly doesn't trust him and wanted to get the ball straight to Torres. Probably a bad decision, but understandable given the state of the game at that point.
[/quote]
I agree with you completely and maybe I just wasn't clear with what I was insinuating. Gerrard was trying to do it all himself (understandably to an extent), Wash wanted to get into position to help but they couldn't get on the same wavelength and ended up basically tripping over each other. Not trying to get on N'Gog's case, just the lack of mutual understanding on the team as a whole.
Cobra:He tried to take on a man and beat him about two or three minutes after the incident I mentioned. He was taken down and the foul not given. He's not suited to provide offensive support from the flanks and shouldn't be played there.
[/quote]
I think he can put in a fine shift against teams where we don't need him to get forward, but against Stoke, it simply isn't enough to come forward with the ball and stop immediately when you run into the first defender and shy away from 1on1 situations. He simply can't be played there against teams that park the bus.
[/quote]
Park the bus? Stoke dominated almost the entire match. We were the ones parking the bus.
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=42710.msg1217932#msg1217932 date=1289685762]
[quote author=cobrastatus link=topic=42710.msg1217787#msg1217787 date=1289678314]
[quote author=darkstarexodus link=topic=42710.msg1217782#msg1217782 date=1289678190]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=42710.msg1217769#msg1217769 date=1289677762]
[quote author=darkstarexodus link=topic=42710.msg1217752#msg1217752 date=1289677370]
[quote author=the_dude link=topic=42710.msg1217737#msg1217737 date=1289677042]
passing was awful. movement was non-existent. it seems to me as though a lot of the team make a conscious effort to get into positions which stop them from being passed to.
[/quote]
Just a couple examples (and not trying to pick on particular players):
Towards the end, Gerrard looked like he was going on a drive to try to make something happen (seemed to me he didn't feel passing it anywhere was a good idea). N'Gog ended up basically getting in his way then struggling to move into space. The ball eventually came back to Carra for a high cross into the box that was cleared because Gerrard couldn't break into space with three defenders around him.
A couple nice touches led to a break out of our pass. Carra is bombing down the wing and Kuyt lays the ball out for him. The pass is slightly underhit and instead of bursting forward with it, Carra brings the ball to a dead stop, allows Stoke to catch up, then fires a crossfield ball to no one in particular. (Not that there were many options for him.)
[/quote]
They're not examples of what The Dude is talking about though. Weird you should bring Wash into it because, whatever his failings (going down too easily, inconsistency etc), not wanting the ball is not one of them. I think, in the bit you mention, that he was really trying to help Gerrard, but Gerrard clearly doesn't trust him and wanted to get the ball straight to Torres. Probably a bad decision, but understandable given the state of the game at that point.
[/quote]
I agree with you completely and maybe I just wasn't clear with what I was insinuating. Gerrard was trying to do it all himself (understandably to an extent), Wash wanted to get into position to help but they couldn't get on the same wavelength and ended up basically tripping over each other. Not trying to get on N'Gog's case, just the lack of mutual understanding on the team as a whole.
Cobra:He tried to take on a man and beat him about two or three minutes after the incident I mentioned. He was taken down and the foul not given. He's not suited to provide offensive support from the flanks and shouldn't be played there.
[/quote]
I think he can put in a fine shift against teams where we don't need him to get forward, but against Stoke, it simply isn't enough to come forward with the ball and stop immediately when you run into the first defender and shy away from 1on1 situations. He simply can't be played there against teams that park the bus.
[/quote]
Park the bus? Stoke dominated almost the entire match. We were the ones parking the bus.
[/quote]
Which is the most damning fact of all. It's one thing to lack the creativity to carve openings against a team with 10 men back but to actually be the ones forced onto the backfoot by such a pedestrian team as Stoke is embarrassing to say the least.
[quote author=cobrastatus link=topic=42710.msg1217787#msg1217787 date=1289678314]
[quote author=darkstarexodus link=topic=42710.msg1217782#msg1217782 date=1289678190]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=42710.msg1217769#msg1217769 date=1289677762]
[quote author=darkstarexodus link=topic=42710.msg1217752#msg1217752 date=1289677370]
[quote author=the_dude link=topic=42710.msg1217737#msg1217737 date=1289677042]
passing was awful. movement was non-existent. it seems to me as though a lot of the team make a conscious effort to get into positions which stop them from being passed to.
[/quote]
Just a couple examples (and not trying to pick on particular players):
Towards the end, Gerrard looked like he was going on a drive to try to make something happen (seemed to me he didn't feel passing it anywhere was a good idea). N'Gog ended up basically getting in his way then struggling to move into space. The ball eventually came back to Carra for a high cross into the box that was cleared because Gerrard couldn't break into space with three defenders around him.
A couple nice touches led to a break out of our pass. Carra is bombing down the wing and Kuyt lays the ball out for him. The pass is slightly underhit and instead of bursting forward with it, Carra brings the ball to a dead stop, allows Stoke to catch up, then fires a crossfield ball to no one in particular. (Not that there were many options for him.)
[/quote]
They're not examples of what The Dude is talking about though. Weird you should bring Wash into it because, whatever his failings (going down too easily, inconsistency etc), not wanting the ball is not one of them. I think, in the bit you mention, that he was really trying to help Gerrard, but Gerrard clearly doesn't trust him and wanted to get the ball straight to Torres. Probably a bad decision, but understandable given the state of the game at that point.
[/quote]
I agree with you completely and maybe I just wasn't clear with what I was insinuating. Gerrard was trying to do it all himself (understandably to an extent), Wash wanted to get into position to help but they couldn't get on the same wavelength and ended up basically tripping over each other. Not trying to get on N'Gog's case, just the lack of mutual understanding on the team as a whole.
Cobra:He tried to take on a man and beat him about two or three minutes after the incident I mentioned. He was taken down and the foul not given. He's not suited to provide offensive support from the flanks and shouldn't be played there.
[/quote]
I think he can put in a fine shift against teams where we don't need him to get forward, but against Stoke, it simply isn't enough to come forward with the ball and stop immediately when you run into the first defender and shy away from 1on1 situations. He simply can't be played there against teams that park the bus.
[/quote]
Park the bus? Stoke dominated almost the entire match. We were the ones parking the bus.
[/quote]
Which is the most damning fact of all. It's one thing to lack the creativity to carve openings against a team with 10 men back but to actually be the ones forced onto the backfoot by such a pedestrian team as Stoke is embarrassing to say the least.
[quote author=cobrastatus link=topic=42710.msg1217787#msg1217787 date=1289678314]
I think he can put in a fine shift against teams where we don't need him to get forward, but against Stoke, it simply isn't enough to come forward with the ball and stop immediately when you run into the first defender and shy away from 1on1 situations. He simply can't be played there against teams that park the bus.
[/quote]
What match were you watching? Stoke dominated us from start to finish.
I think he can put in a fine shift against teams where we don't need him to get forward, but against Stoke, it simply isn't enough to come forward with the ball and stop immediately when you run into the first defender and shy away from 1on1 situations. He simply can't be played there against teams that park the bus.
[/quote]
What match were you watching? Stoke dominated us from start to finish.
- Status
