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Kabak - Phillips (the 'Other Guys')

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moron

moron

i am legend
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Ok - so what's the issue some of you have with those two now ? all I know is that they have played 4 games together now as a partnership (from the start of the game) - have conceded zero goals and we have won every game with them both, with three games I think Fab shielding them in his midfield defensive role.

This got me thinking - I am looking back to the season with Gomez/Matip, and VDD only - when you look back to some of those games before Fab/Alli arrived there were some inconsistent moments (e.g. conceding goals against Roma home and away..), I mean yes VVD bought the organizational presence but we were still leaking goals and losing/drawing games even at the tail-end of last season, and lets not forget the goals we conceded early on e.g. Villa away, and against Leeds in our first game - in this season.

I actually get a buzz out of how these two youngsters will play each game now, and along with the excitement of Jota up front who seems to be able have the positioning and scoring abilities of a natural striker. Yet we seem to be so uncertain about them - lets face it - there has not been a header that Phillips has missed, and yet any moment when either of our two Rookie defenders make a slight error - it's a case of they are not good enough. Are we being too harsh and critical on these guys ? - If they get through the Real Madrid game this Tuesday without losing or fucking up - I think we should stop and take these two seriously.

Yeah I get it - Kabak/Phillips are the 'Other Guys', but man they are so good together.
 
I think the only criticism you can level at them is that Kabak in particular isn't that great technically. He's ok, but whereas before we had Matip who could play out from the back, VVD who could ping 40 yard passes and Gomez who could also play, Kabak is alot more of an out and out defender first and foremost. Phillips is actually quite decent on the ball, he passes it well and first time, he also showed he can play a bit yesterday when he pressed high up the pitch, worked his way into the box and put in a decent cross.

Other than the slight downgrade in technical ability, they've done brilliantly. Though we've now remembered how to protect our defense again so they have been put under a lot less pressure than our defense had been over the previous few months.
 
Natbak have been completely immense.

Completely agree Phillips in particular will be a cult hero at the very least if we manage to win CL.

I remember in his 1st few outings he completly cleaned out a couple of strikers once he'd been rinsed. And whilst that's not always a bad thing he's improved so much we haven't seen him have to do that recently.

Kabak has also improved beyond wildest dreams.
 
mark1975 said:
I think the only criticism you can level at them is that Kabak in particular isn't that great technically. He's ok, but whereas before we had Matip who could play out from the back, VVD who could ping 40 yard passes and Gomez who could also play, Kabak is alot more of an out and out defender first and foremost. Phillips is actually quite decent on the ball, he passes it well and first time, he also showed he can play a bit yesterday when he pressed high up the pitch, worked his way into the box and put in a decent cross.

Other than the slight downgrade in technical ability, they've done brilliantly. Though we've now remembered how to protect our defense again so they have been put under a lot less pressure than our defense had been over the previous few months.
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I think Kabak is actually good technically and a decent passer, but has limited himself to stay further back than Philips because he has more pace. Yesterday there was one dodgy situation - and Kabak just took the ball out of the danger area without any issues.

@peekay - thanks for posting that tweet - that actually makes sense and I was thinking the same - games without conceding a goal - how long has that not happened for - fuck me 1988 !!! - but it is the sort of thing I am talking about, these two have been so good together that I cannot remember a time even with VVD where we did that. What this underlines to me is also how fucking good is Fab at shielding our defense ? - we really need a backup for him at some stage.
 
moron said:
I think Kabak is actually good technically and a decent passer, but has limited himself to stay further back than Philips because he has more pace. Yesterday there was one dodgy situation - and Kabak just took the ball out of the danger area without any issues.

@peekay - thanks for posting that tweet - that actually makes sense and I was thinking the same - games without conceding a goal - how long has that not happened for - fuck me 1988 !!! - but it is the sort of thing I am talking about, these two have been so good together that I cannot remember a time even with VVD where we did that. What this underlines to me is also how fucking good is Fab at shielding our defense ? - we really need a backup for him at some stage.
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Yes we do need a back up in the DM position, but it's not a priority.
 
I agree with everyone else here that Kabak and Philips have been immense, but a major factor in that is having Fabinho in DM. The center of the pitch has basically been closed off for our opponents since his move from defence, making the defending so much easier for Philips and Kabak.
If they try to play the ball over the midfield the aggressiveness and aerial ability of Philips makes it easy for him to clear.
Kabak is very mature for his age. I like the fact that he's calm and composed. They fit each other well.
 
Remember when Mascherano was covering for Carra and Hyypiä/Agger?
Basically the same with Fabinho. Maybe not as quick, but stronger in the air and a better tackler.
 
tomasjj said:
Regarding technique and passing, I see it differently. Kabak being superior in that department.
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Yes, Philips has the basics but he still gives me that Sakho feeling every time he's got the ball at his feet.
 
Modo said:
Yes we do need a back up in the DM position, but it's not a priority.
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I would really invest in Grujic or Trent in that position. Although I think Trent is better suited to the right midfield position after two seasons. So that leaves us with Grujic or the new Lahm in our academy. I would evaluate them and get them trained in real games before another disaster occurs next season.
 
TheRedCrusade said:
I would really invest in Grujic or Trent in that position. Although I think Trent is better suited to the right midfield position after two seasons. So that leaves us with Grujic or the new Lahm in our academy. I would evaluate them and get them trained in real games before another disaster occurs next season.
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Who is the new Lahm? And why would Lahm play in the defensive midfield role?
Grujic will most definitely be sold.
 
Modo said:
Yes, Philips has the basics but he still gives me that Sakho feeling every time he's got the ball at his feet.
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Not at all meant to bash Phillips, who has done really well.
The trio with Fabs in front is working. However, up against Real, the gap in individual quality compared to our top choices might become visible.
 
tomasjj said:
Not at all meant to bash Phillips, who has done really well.
The trio with Fabs in front is working. However, up against Real, the gap in individual quality compared to our top choices might become visible.
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Yes up against Real Madrid - I was actually expecting this gap in quality to appear vs Leipzig, Wolves, and Arsenal, so far it has not, so lets see if this worse fear that everyone is carrying actually materializes against Real.

Let it also be known for the record we lost a European Cup Final against Real Madrid with VVD, and Lovren at the back where Lovren was outstanding. You see I have a real problem with some of the stuff posted on here - it's working because they have Fab in front of them ? - yes that is part of it but has anyone considered that that maybe the same case why the likes of VVD, and Gomez/Matip look great with Fab in front of them ?
 
moron said:
Yes up against Real Madrid - I was actually expecting this gap in quality to appear vs Leipzig, Wolves, and Arsenal, so far it has not, so lets see if this worse fear that everyone is carrying actually materializes against Real.

Let it also be known for the record we lost a European Cup Final against Real Madrid with VVD, and Lovren at the back where Lovren was outstanding. You see I have a real problem with some of the stuff posted on here - it's working because they have Fab in front of them ? - yes that is part of it but has anyone considered that that maybe the same case why the likes of VVD, and Gomez/Matip look great with Fab in front of them ?
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I guess the first part of your post makes sense and no really knows how it will turn out.

For the second part, remember there is a new goal keeper behind the CBs and Fab in front of them, in case we start comparing teams on the surface. Of course there are other factors also coming into play, in case we start analysing our playing style compared the older days under Klopp. There are too many factors involved but I still get your point about "current pair of CBs working pretty fine"
 
TheRedCrusade said:
I guess the first part of your post makes sense and no really knows how it will turn out.

For the second part, remember there is a new goal keeper behind the CBs and Fab in front of them, in case we start comparing teams on the surface. Of course there are other factors also coming into play, in case we start analysing our playing style compared the older days under Klopp. There are too many factors involved but I still get your point about "current pair of CBs working pretty fine"
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Glad someone does, I was on youtube listening to one of the latest TAW podcasts, and this bloke on there was making me laugh crazy based on how much (like myself) he loves watching them both play and that after this season is over - they should go and get their own show !!!! On a serious note our current defensive circumstances and hopes for winning the CL using our current bottom order defenders is not without precedent. I think @rurikbird - will know this - but in the world cup of 1994 I distinctly remember that Brazil had to bring in their 5th choice CB pairing (think it was Marcio Santos, and Aldair) - they went onto win the world cup, with I think the best defensive record of any Brazil team in that tournament !!!

I think it was Rio Ferdinand who after the Leipzig game said we did not have a chance of winning the CL with our two defenders - I can understand where he is coming from - but I am hoping for the best !!!!
 
It is just proof of just how finely balanced our system is. By having Fabinho in DM, we also have Gini back in one of the other CM roles, and the third CM role is also a bit more advanced. Fabinho at DM means these two CMs are able to press higher (at the deep playmakers pinging balls in behind our high line) too. The whole balance works with a proper DM - and Fabinho is way more than just a 'proper DM'.

When Fabs was at CB, we were essentially playing a double DM system, meaning we not only sat deeper but the press from midfield was too easy to beat for the opposition.

On top of that, Nat & Kabak have gelled well. Kudos to Kabak after getting GBH'd by Alisson versus Leicester and catching a lot of flak for what was 100% the GKs fault. You can see that Kabak is trying to be the distributor of the two, but hasn't quite found his passing boots yet (lots of trying, but lots of overhit balls).
 
I don't want to be too harsh, but last night exposed the shortcomings of this partnership. Not that they did something terribly wrong defensively. Both seem like solid pros and haven't made any glaring errors the way Sakho and Lovren used to. I have a solid degree of trust in their defensive play, and we of course need to stick with them till the end of the season.

But the problem is that when you play in a high-line and are attempting to play progressive football, you need your CBs to be able to play football as well, not just defend.

Our biggest problem in the first half last night was that we simply weren't able to progress the ball from defence to attack fast enough. And this wasn't even because Madrid were pressing us very hard - we simply didn't have the ability to. Phillips is slow and can't carry the ball forward at all, his passes are short and simple. Kabak has a bit more pace, but he doesn't have the confidence to try and carry the ball forward certainly at this stage. And he doesn't have the passing range to compensate. Last night, he got frustrated in possession a couple of times and tried to hit the diagonal, but it went awry both times.

Van Dijk would have hit the diagonal to Trent and Salah all night long. Matip (and even Gomez to a lesser extent) would have broken lines by simply carrying the ball into midfield - a crucial offensive movement. That's really where our front 3 and midfield gets activated. Quick progression of the ball before the opposition defence has numbers and structure back. What our midfield is not attuned to is having to drop back constantly to receive the ball with their back to goal and then try and progress the ball forward. That's the job of a DLP, and our system doesn't have one because we rely on our high-line CBs to be good footballers.

Now the midfield last night, especially Keita and Wijnaldum were lacklustre because they provided very little energy. But that's also because they found themselves in a position where the ball simply wasn't moving quick enough from deep. Which is why Klopp brought on Thiago because he's the only midfield player we have who moves the ball rapidly and over longer distances if required.

Long term, this is probably the reason someone like Phillips won't have a future here. It's also the reason we're interested in Konate - who's not just a physical monster but also quite good in carrying the ball forward a'la Matip.
 
I totally disagree with having a player who already has one foot out the door in a fixture like this. Yeah, yeah I still haven't forgotten what he did against Barca...but he should be on the bench in crucial games for the reminder of the season.
 
moron said:
Glad someone does, I was on youtube listening to one of the latest TAW podcasts, and this bloke on there was making me laugh crazy based on how much (like myself) he loves watching them both play and that after this season is over - they should go and get their own show !!!! On a serious note our current defensive circumstances and hopes for winning the CL using our current bottom order defenders is not without precedent. I think @rurikbird - will know this - but in the world cup of 1994 I distinctly remember that Brazil had to bring in their 5th choice CB pairing (think it was Marcio Santos, and Aldair) - they went onto win the world cup, with I think the best defensive record of any Brazil team in that tournament !!!

I think it was Rio Ferdinand who after the Leipzig game said we did not have a chance of winning the CL with our two defenders - I can understand where he is coming from - but I am hoping for the best !!!!
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I was too young in 1994, the first WC I’ve watched properly was 1998.
 
dmishra said:
I don't want to be too harsh, but last night exposed the shortcomings of this partnership. Not that they did something terribly wrong defensively. Both seem like solid pros and haven't made any glaring errors the way Sakho and Lovren used to. I have a solid degree of trust in their defensive play, and we of course need to stick with them till the end of the season.

But the problem is that when you play in a high-line and are attempting to play progressive football, you need your CBs to be able to play football as well, not just defend.

Our biggest problem in the first half last night was that we simply weren't able to progress the ball from defence to attack fast enough. And this wasn't even because Madrid were pressing us very hard - we simply didn't have the ability to. Phillips is slow and can't carry the ball forward at all, his passes are short and simple. Kabak has a bit more pace, but he doesn't have the confidence to try and carry the ball forward certainly at this stage. And he doesn't have the passing range to compensate. Last night, he got frustrated in possession a couple of times and tried to hit the diagonal, but it went awry both times.

Van Dijk would have hit the diagonal to Trent and Salah all night long. Matip (and even Gomez to a lesser extent) would have broken lines by simply carrying the ball into midfield - a crucial offensive movement. That's really where our front 3 and midfield gets activated. Quick progression of the ball before the opposition defence has numbers and structure back. What our midfield is not attuned to is having to drop back constantly to receive the ball with their back to goal and then try and progress the ball forward. That's the job of a DLP, and our system doesn't have one because we rely on our high-line CBs to be good footballers.

Now the midfield last night, especially Keita and Wijnaldum were lacklustre because they provided very little energy. But that's also because they found themselves in a position where the ball simply wasn't moving quick enough from deep. Which is why Klopp brought on Thiago because he's the only midfield player we have who moves the ball rapidly and over longer distances if required.

Long term, this is probably the reason someone like Phillips won't have a future here. It's also the reason we're interested in Konate - who's not just a physical monster but also quite good in carrying the ball forward a'la Matip.
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That game yesterday - was very strange and our boys were asleep as fuck - if you are to compare that game with any other game this season - then compare it to the Aston Villa game where we lost 7-2 (VVD, Fab, and also Gomez played in that game, we also started with Keita), and had not Klopp taken Keita off it would have been worse. I thought both were let down by TAA, and the midfield yesterday, they were constantly exposed last night and at times had to deal with 3 players at the same time.

To be honest - a high line against a team that were intent on attacking us last night might not have been the best approach - we should have and probably could have played a less attacking approach against them. Unfortunately it is not in our DNA.
 
Fabinho wasn't great either, he didn't protect the back four well. It was a weird set up from us. When Henderson plays he covers the inside right and generally tracks runners, so Trent gets alot more help. We should have probably played Milner there for that reason, he'd have doubled up on Vini Jnr and it'd have been a different game. Fabinho was sluggish at times blocking the phase of play before the final shot. Gini showed himself for about 10 minutes of the game after half time. I agree with whoever it was who said he shouldn't be playing. If he doesn't want to be here, why the fuck should Milner or Jones be sat on the bench? Both will give their all and won't go missing.
 
mark1975 said:
Fabinho wasn't great either, he didn't protect the back four well. It was a weird set up from us. When Henderson plays he covers the inside right and generally tracks runners, so Trent gets alot more help. We should have probably played Milner there for that reason, he'd have doubled up on Vini Jnr and it'd have been a different game. Fabinho was sluggish at times blocking the phase of play before the final shot. Gini showed himself for about 10 minutes of the game after half time. I agree with whoever it was who said he shouldn't be playing. If he doesn't want to be here, why the fuck should Milner or Jones be sat on the bench? Both will give their all and won't go missing.
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*raises hand*
 
He wasn't the only one, and to be fair he's still coming back from injury himself. In the first half especially we were second to everything, in the second half he tried to boss the midfield more and looked better with Thiago (who still wasn't great). Gini was anonymous though, he did his typical disappearing act when the chips were down. The least said about Keita the better, what a waste of money.
 
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