Poll Will Nunez ever become 20+ goal striker?
- Thread starter rurikbird
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I've no doubt he does do good things for the team. He certainly gets more assists than he used to, even if he doesn't score enough goals.
That said, there are endless posts on here about this player or that player, and how we should sign them, and how good they would be, etc etc etc. Is it not beyond the realms of possibility that at least one of them might do just as many good things for the team whilst also scoring a decent number of goals too?
That said, there are endless posts on here about this player or that player, and how we should sign them, and how good they would be, etc etc etc. Is it not beyond the realms of possibility that at least one of them might do just as many good things for the team whilst also scoring a decent number of goals too?
Yup, I voted no (to scoring 20+ goals in the league) for a variety of reasons.
1. EPL wise, it's no mean feat in the first place.
[article]Twenty goals in a single Premier League season (first season of 1992-93) is often regarded as the benchmark for success for elite strikers – and it has been achieved on 87 occasions in the competition's history[/article]
Lots of those achieved the 20/+ landmark with the help of penalties - Nunez doesn't take them for us in the league.
https://www.statbunker.com/competitions/TopGoalScorers?comp_id=745
2. In his best goal scoring season (21/22), he was outperforming his xG by quite a bit and featured prominently along the flank (as opposed to being an out-and-out striker).
https://www.skysports.com/transfer/...st-from-manchester-united-and-other-top-clubs
3. In his 2nd best goal scoring season at Almeria, this was what his then-assistant manager said:
https://www.skysports.com/football/...n-forward-looks-ready-for-the-premier-leaguev
[article]"He is a tall guy but he is very quick off the mark and he can maintain that speed over long distances," Badia explains. "That was amazing for the counter-attacks. You could put a long ball to him and he could beat defenders even if they were two metres ahead of him.
"He was amazing at that."
It became Almeria's chief route to goal.
"We had good players at No 10 and No 8 who could find very nice passes through the defensive line of the opponent. We had another fast winger. And he was our No 9.
"When we would steal the ball back in the middle of the pitch, we could find him easily because he is so good at finding the space, identifying the right areas to attack, understanding the deficiencies of the opposition defenders."
One game, in particular, has stayed in Badia's memory. It was January 2020, the first game after a brief winter break. Almeria had a difficult trip to Lugo in the relative cold of Galicia, an assignment that traditionally takes Andalusian teams out of their comfort zone.
Ten minutes had passed when Nunez changed the game.
"It was an amazing goal on the counter-attack. The moment that he feels we are going to win the ball, he starts to run. If he does not run before then the goal does not happen. Because of that movement, when we played the ball, he was already at full speed.
"He was one-on-one with the goalkeeper and everyone was expecting him to go to one side or the other. Instead, he shot directly from distance. Even the goalkeeper was not expecting that sudden move. It was like a rocket, you know. He had these special moments.
"It is a video I still show my players today."
Stylistically, there are some clubs that might suit him more than others. Agenjo wonders whether Diego Simeone's Atletico Madrid might be the best fit because of his counter-attacking skills and fighting instincts. "He is this type of player," he says.[/article]
4. Confidence player
[article]Portuguese football expert Pedro Sepulveda speaking on Sky Sports News:
"The biggest defect - or the less good point - about Nunez is his psychological game. In the 2020/21 season, he was not scoring many goals. He played 44 matches and only scored 14. He was criticised by the fans a little bit and the first thing he did was start suspending his social media, blocking people and not reading the comments. This proves he doesn't deal well with critics when things start not going well. And in England, the price tag is the first thing people will talk about when he doesn't start scoring goals.
"When you talk about a player like Nunez, you think about a typical No 9 that plays inside the penalty area. But he can easily play out wide to break spaces for other players in the central areas if teams need him. It's a very good deal for Liverpool, who already used the Portuguese league with Luis Diaz in a massive transfer which the winger completely deserved.
"In Jurgen Klopp's hands, Darwin can be one of the top strikers in the world. Nowadays, he's not one of the top strikers because he doesn't play in the top five leagues. We have to see how he develops in the Premier League, which is one of the best leagues in the world."[/article]
[article]Klopp's assistant, Pep Lijnders, described Nunez as "a pure intuition player" ahead of Wednesday's Carabao Cup win over Leicester. The difference now is that, following a season to settle in, the 24-year-old has found a level of confidence and conviction to match.
"An intuition player like Darwin needs this kind of confidence," added Lijnders.[/article]
5. Rather than lament over luck (no doubt, it is a factor), something great goal scorers share in common is outperforming their xG regularly - utilizing/maximizing their finishing skills to complete the job.
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Almost everyone is focusing on goals / misses but this is not the only problem.
But there were a couple of occasions in the second half (much better than the first) where if another player (Jones springs to mind... as despite having a great game was being hounded in the match thread) did the same thing, some of the fans would be screaming for his head. There was a breakaway with 3 players ahead of him where instead of passing he just ran until he lost it, and there was a chance that came to him at the edge of the box where instead of shooting / passing / dribbling, he just stood there (as if he was trying to decide what to do) until the ball was taken of him.
He was better last night with the offside rule and his first touch wasn't noticeably bad, so at least that's something.
But there were a couple of occasions in the second half (much better than the first) where if another player (Jones springs to mind... as despite having a great game was being hounded in the match thread) did the same thing, some of the fans would be screaming for his head. There was a breakaway with 3 players ahead of him where instead of passing he just ran until he lost it, and there was a chance that came to him at the edge of the box where instead of shooting / passing / dribbling, he just stood there (as if he was trying to decide what to do) until the ball was taken of him.
He was better last night with the offside rule and his first touch wasn't noticeably bad, so at least that's something.
Everything everyone is saying is true, even the things that contradict the other things.
But... I just think we're still a more dangerous team with Nunez in the team. We keep talking about all the chances created for Nunez like he has nothing to do with it. There's a reason he gets a ton of chances in games and other forwards don't. He's a problem for defenders and he's useful for our attack. It's not enough, but it is something. Klopp has tolerated forwards that don't score, if our forwards are scoring.
If that's wrong, and Klopp can come up with something new in Salah's absence, that's fine too. It's fantastic timing to get a really dangerous performance out of Diaz for the first time in ages, have Jota finding goals immediately after coming back, and have Gakpo, well, at least simmering somewhere on the back burner. It looks rosier than it did a couple games ago, even if that was a half dozen misses ago.
But... I just think we're still a more dangerous team with Nunez in the team. We keep talking about all the chances created for Nunez like he has nothing to do with it. There's a reason he gets a ton of chances in games and other forwards don't. He's a problem for defenders and he's useful for our attack. It's not enough, but it is something. Klopp has tolerated forwards that don't score, if our forwards are scoring.
If that's wrong, and Klopp can come up with something new in Salah's absence, that's fine too. It's fantastic timing to get a really dangerous performance out of Diaz for the first time in ages, have Jota finding goals immediately after coming back, and have Gakpo, well, at least simmering somewhere on the back burner. It looks rosier than it did a couple games ago, even if that was a half dozen misses ago.
.
Come on.
Mo. has done that umpteen times, a lot recently. Gakpo,Szobo and Diaz too. We've not been as clinical on our breaks for a while. I put it down to new players and not being sure what the other players will do. It'll come.
Mo is scoring.
And also fucks up tons of breaks.
Great point. I've changed my opinion entirely. The person who fucks up breaks and isn't scoring deserves the same criticism as the person who fucks up breaks and is scoring.
How about the person who fucks them up the most? Like at least once a game for Mo. Nobody complains because it's a numbers game. You're just looking for any excuse to have a dig.
Absolutely right. Noone has ever complained about Mo.
I complained about Mo twice before breakfast
The first one is hard to criticise.
Second and fourth. Well I’ve seen Mo and Mane score those but they’ve also done what Nunez did last night.
Yeah, he deserves the criticism for that third effort. That was poor
Looking back on this thread again there's a comment to be made here - thanks to Binny's post.
The number of players hitting 20+ goals per season in the PL (excluding penalties) is ridiculously low. Some seasons none at all. Others one or two. So the question then becomes can Nunez be one of the top two scorers in the PL and the answer to that is no.
That doesn't mean he can't be a very valuable member of the team (just reading the post on Dynamo Kiev destroying Barca 3-0 and 4-0 and the manager's statement that a star-team will beat a team of stars) because that's what I believe he is already and that we are top of the PL not despite him but partly because of his contributions.
Hopefully that chance falls to Jota
It's a matter of playing the percentages. Maybe without Nunez in the side some of the time we'd be less likely to get into those potential winning positions in the first place.
I've seen a lot of opinions over the past couple of days stating exactly this (from ex-players and media commentators and from Klopp) - he makes things happen, he creates so much space for others (Mo.) because of how he occupies CBs / defenders. I agree and it's why I believe he's making a great contribution to the team even if he's missing chances.
I’ve been watching a few videos on the current LFC formation, Trent’s role, what we’re doing well and what we aren’t doing well.
There’s probably something in the suggestion that Nunez is doing something right that is quite as easy to pin down, which is leading to all his assists.
The general consensus is that we’re using the inverted FB set up differently because we’re aligning it to Trent’s abilities - so we’re using him to progressive the ball faster, longer and more directly.
City use the inverted FB system for control, possession and to move the ball through central areas.
We’re using it to create direct attacks quickly and then counter pressing - the downside of that is it means we don’t have width, we’re more open at the back, we’re not controlling games, meaning we’ll give away more chances for the opposition to score.
That also kind of tallies with the idea that our defence, including Alisson are keeping us afloat, to an extent.
The upside of what we’re doing, is we should be creating more chances - which we are.
It’s a balance thing - we’re making games a little more open. Possibly to try to tempt teams out of low blocks more, but certainly to kill them in transition - which is where we excel.
With Arsenal playing this system, they’re more closed - the question is, “Will they score?” Because defensively they’re strong.
City are more about control - “Will the opposition see enough of the ball to score?”.
It feels a bit Biesla-esque - but with better defenders.
It also might explain Nunez importance and why he’s getting so many assists - it’s because he’s fast and high up the pitch and we’re getting the ball in there quickly (also explains Trent’s Hollywood balls).
There’s lots of moving pieces here - but Inthink this system is designed to get all our forwards scoring a bucket load of goals.
If you look at Nunez assists, they’re not exactly Firminoesque genius passes or defence splitting “eye of the needle” through balls like Mo regularly pulls off - not to to denigrate Nunez assists - but they’re all usually simple short passes.
So - he’s getting into the right positions and he’s integrating really well by providing opportunities - which is great - but for this system to ultimately work, and I mean if we’re going to give up space and opportunity for opposition to attack us, then it needs someone to be banging away more of the chances than Nunez currently is - maybe not 20+ - but certainly 15+ or close to, in the league.
We're not really a side that only "gets one chance" though, we produce at least a dozen almost every game. Newcastle were clinical the other night, got 2 chances and buried them both.....they still lost though, that was down to the sheer intensity of our play to create bundles of chances.
Jota would be the man for that occasion anyway, you need that variety with your front line which is what we have. Explosiveness, directness, quick feet, poachers finisher, we have it all there.
It'll come with the three of them (Diaz, Nunez and Gapko). Neville made a really great point to that effect after the game. The three of them have explosiveness and cause problems, but they lack that "peak age" experience and composure, which came much later in Klopp's reign with Firmino and Mane, after a few years of the same sort of stuff we're seeing now. Just because they are missing chances, it doesn't mean they are without their merits. As Klopp mentioned on Sunday, Nunez occupied their central defenders and gave them a headache, giving space to Salah and Diaz to attack. Sure, he's frustrating in front of goal, but he's equally electric and a real pest to play against. The rest of his game will follow.
The Salah goal showed the composure can be there, Diaz did what he does best (and admittedly has lacked recently), and Nunez did what many would think is beyond his intelligence.
One thing we do have to find over the coming years is another prolific finisher. There's no reason why Nunez, Diaz and Gapko can't be 10-20 league goals a season strikers, maybe more, but only Jota and Salah have natural clinical ability in front of goal. Let's not forget, Mane was explosive but very much a purple patch player at times in his early years, he was a more consistent finisher than the others, but not always by much, it took time. He was often a player who would bury a goal rather than place a goal, that came more consistently later on. We're well equipped upfront, the only thing we have to think about is longterm and replacing Salah and possibly Jota (as his injuries will always hamper him and us).
Nunez might be a bit of a raw and slightly frustrating enigma at the moment, but he's not offering "nothing", he's playing a part. He needs more goals to his game, but I bet defenders hate playing against him.
The Salah goal showed the composure can be there, Diaz did what he does best (and admittedly has lacked recently), and Nunez did what many would think is beyond his intelligence.
One thing we do have to find over the coming years is another prolific finisher. There's no reason why Nunez, Diaz and Gapko can't be 10-20 league goals a season strikers, maybe more, but only Jota and Salah have natural clinical ability in front of goal. Let's not forget, Mane was explosive but very much a purple patch player at times in his early years, he was a more consistent finisher than the others, but not always by much, it took time. He was often a player who would bury a goal rather than place a goal, that came more consistently later on. We're well equipped upfront, the only thing we have to think about is longterm and replacing Salah and possibly Jota (as his injuries will always hamper him and us).
Nunez might be a bit of a raw and slightly frustrating enigma at the moment, but he's not offering "nothing", he's playing a part. He needs more goals to his game, but I bet defenders hate playing against him.
I'm at the stage where Nunez is a complimentary player. The two proven finishers we have are Salah and Jota, and they simply have to start whenever possible. If Jota goes on a scoring run, like he has done in the past, then we could well stay stop until the end. He's proven capable of putting up absurd numbers and I have more faith in him restoring that than Nunez finding his shooting boots this season. That's not to stay Nunez is without merit, but for me he's competing for the third spot with Gakpo and Diaz. If we were not doing so well then I'd be more forgiving of giving Nunez development time, but the stakes are too high now. There's a potential title on the line and the side Klopp selects against the big sides could well determine where the title goes in May.
So far so good though, right? I mean a lot of our dropped points have been against the so called "bigger sides" but we still find ourselves top as it stands.....because the side he's picked generally do the biz against the lesser sides. I don't recall too many times this season where fans were in uproar over his selections.
& it's not always gonna be the same side playing in the big games, at times he'll have his hands tied due to injuries or mid-season internationals or protecting players with fixture congestion etc but I'm positive by now Klopp has earned the trust of every fan to pick the right team to win the next game.
I can easily see Nunez getting 20 goals in a season, if he's here a while. I don't see him doing it consistently.
If he scores a little more, he'll be fine. If he continues as he has the last few games, he won't be here a while even though he's effective elsewhere.
If he scores a little more, he'll be fine. If he continues as he has the last few games, he won't be here a while even though he's effective elsewhere.
Getting rid of Nunez would be the biggest mistake since the Americans stepped foot in Afghanistan, 20 odd years ago.
It won't happen as long as Klopp is around, he continues to put the upmost faith in him that he'll polish up his finishing touch (& he will) and once he does he'll be unstoppable. Klopp knows this. Time is on our side. He sees what I see and what the thousands inside Anfield every week that chant NUNEZ! NUNEZ! NUNEZ!
In a way he already is unstoppable because defenders can't get near him and are helpless in preventing him getting chance after chance. His pace, power, determination makes it impossible. The only defender that's manage to defend him well so far has been Varane & that was more to do with the team lacking the service into him and lacking silly potshots from distance.
It won't happen as long as Klopp is around, he continues to put the upmost faith in him that he'll polish up his finishing touch (& he will) and once he does he'll be unstoppable. Klopp knows this. Time is on our side. He sees what I see and what the thousands inside Anfield every week that chant NUNEZ! NUNEZ! NUNEZ!
In a way he already is unstoppable because defenders can't get near him and are helpless in preventing him getting chance after chance. His pace, power, determination makes it impossible. The only defender that's manage to defend him well so far has been Varane & that was more to do with the team lacking the service into him and lacking silly potshots from distance.
One interesting stat I heard on the RedmenTV "Deep dive" today is that Nunez has outperformed his XG in his last season for Benfica, in fact he outperformed it BY A LOT. So he does have at least one season of better-than-average finishing in his recent career. Optimists expected his 2nd season for Liverpool to mimic his progression at Benfica, so far it hasn't happened (in fact his XG conversion has slightly decreased), but it's still possible to imagine things will click at some point.
Binny did tell you that on the last page. Even posted the stats.
Yes, he did.
Alright, let’s look at this from a different angle - the next month or so is going to tell us a lot about the attacking components of our squad and give us an insight into “life after Mo”.
Realistically we’re not changing our system - so that means 433 with Trent inverting from RB.
We’ll play Mac A as the 6 and likely Harvey in MO’s position with Slobbers, Curtis & Gravy filling the double 8 roles. (Might see Gakpo in there too, particularly if Slobbers is out for a while with his hammie injury.
So… this means, we’ll be likely more open through the centre, Mac A isn’t as good at defending, but more creative and better at ball progression, because Mac A is better technically.
With Harvey, he’s likely to provide more width, but much less in the way of goals - he might grab a couple, but he’s unlikely to score at Salah rate.
The width is important though - because while Mo hangs out wide, you really want him getting into the centre.
Harvey out wide means 2 things - more space for the central striker and an absolute necessity that the centre striker has a high conversion rate.
Let’s assume, Diaz is going to hold the fort down on the left and Gakpo is going to end up in midfield.
You look directly at Jota to play through the centre because he’s the one most able to convert and go on a hot run of scoring - but he’s made of biscuits and there’s every chance he’ll pick up an injury - so there’s a level of protection required there which means he can’t start every game, particularly as he’s just coming back from an injury.
I think this is Nunez moment to shine - and we need him to - Harvey will give him space, the system is set up to get the ball to him through the centre, directly… he gets chances, he’s got the ability - he needs to take this moment and justify that all the name chanting is not just dickheads that finds us name easy to pronounce.
For me this next month or so will tell me everything I need to know about Nunez.
If he activates “Binomial wet dream mode” then then it’s fucking on line donkey kong!!!
If he doesn’t… then he’s king donkey and the dream is close to dead.
Realistically we’re not changing our system - so that means 433 with Trent inverting from RB.
We’ll play Mac A as the 6 and likely Harvey in MO’s position with Slobbers, Curtis & Gravy filling the double 8 roles. (Might see Gakpo in there too, particularly if Slobbers is out for a while with his hammie injury.
So… this means, we’ll be likely more open through the centre, Mac A isn’t as good at defending, but more creative and better at ball progression, because Mac A is better technically.
With Harvey, he’s likely to provide more width, but much less in the way of goals - he might grab a couple, but he’s unlikely to score at Salah rate.
The width is important though - because while Mo hangs out wide, you really want him getting into the centre.
Harvey out wide means 2 things - more space for the central striker and an absolute necessity that the centre striker has a high conversion rate.
Let’s assume, Diaz is going to hold the fort down on the left and Gakpo is going to end up in midfield.
You look directly at Jota to play through the centre because he’s the one most able to convert and go on a hot run of scoring - but he’s made of biscuits and there’s every chance he’ll pick up an injury - so there’s a level of protection required there which means he can’t start every game, particularly as he’s just coming back from an injury.
I think this is Nunez moment to shine - and we need him to - Harvey will give him space, the system is set up to get the ball to him through the centre, directly… he gets chances, he’s got the ability - he needs to take this moment and justify that all the name chanting is not just dickheads that finds us name easy to pronounce.
For me this next month or so will tell me everything I need to know about Nunez.
If he activates “Binomial wet dream mode” then then it’s fucking on line donkey kong!!!
If he doesn’t… then he’s king donkey and the dream is close to dead.
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