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Which one is the holding midfielder?

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Farkmaster

Farkmaster

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Mascherano, not known for his passing, known to be better without the ball, just trounced Lucas today in a game which was as close to a training game attack v defense exercise as you'll ever see. That's staggering. Mascherano, who is a fantastic player, but has honed his abilities to a very specific role, is better (sometimes) at doing an impression of a more all round midfielder, than the player Rafa thought would, at the very least, see us through to Aquilani. Mascherano played crossfield outlet balls to the sidelines several times today, and yet, often with all the time in the world, Lucas found the easy, unproductive layoff.

Yet I still hear some decent posters saying he was good, he was a 7, he was OK.

Here's the comparison:


mascherlucas.jpg


What precisely is Lucas' function? What is he doing on that evidence (and almost all the other games we've seen) He's not great defensively and gives away needless fouls, he provides no urgency or impetus to our forward play, and his finishing is atrocious. I was fine with Sissoko playing the simple ball when he struggled, but he was an essentially destructive player, and I thought he should play within himself. Lucas isn't that sort of player, he isn't particularly athletic and he's got someone miles better than he'll ever be in the holding role which should give him freedom. Yet in this role he has played game after game after game for us, and quietly offered safe sideways and backward passes.

His way of improving seems to be for him to not try anything. Nothing he does is particularly poor anymore, because he does very little that is notable.
 
[quote author=zlatan18 link=topic=37073.msg985031#msg985031 date=1257822648]
point is lucas is absolute shit!! i dont know how the word brazilian can be associated with him!
[/quote]

Thanks for that Neanderthalic reduction.
 
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=37073.msg985037#msg985037 date=1257823623]
[quote author=zlatan18 link=topic=37073.msg985031#msg985031 date=1257822648]
point is lucas is absolute shit!! i dont know how the word brazilian can be associated with him!
[/quote]

Thanks for that Neanderthalic reduction.
[/quote]

Lucas's role has long been discussed on here with everyone pretty much agreeing he isnt good enough to start, but is an ok squad player. There is a level of arrogance with Lucas's supporters almost an "I know more about football than you" belief because they see the merit of his attributes. As said he doesnt really excel in any area and is sloppy whilst tackeling, his passing regardless of that pass against Newcastle is pretty basic with 9 out of 10 passes being either short or to the wing.

The only thing Ive heard in his favour is that "he keeps the team ticking" which is utter bollocks. When Aquilani is fully fit we will finally see this bag of mediocrity benched.
 
Honestly, I really don't know what Lucas does out there. Some games I think he's just a waste of a teamsheet spot for us, opponents would ignore him when he has the ball, and they'd just walk by him when we're defending. I laud him for the good games he's had for us, but being paired up with Masch, I don't think it's working for him. I hope he gets some good games under his belt, so we can sell him off for a decent bit of moolah. Sorry Lucas fans.
 
[quote author=Peatcheo link=topic=37073.msg985045#msg985045 date=1257825215]
The only thing Ive heard in his favour is that "he keeps the team ticking" which is utter bollocks. When Aquilani is fully fit we will finally see this bag of mediocrity benched.
[/quote]

That's exactly what he does, if we are passing the ball around in defense, he can play it square to the full back. If we have already established possession in the attacking third, he can pass it square around the perimeter. He'll keep the time ticking away as we need a goal.
 
Heh, Lucas did surprise me by playing a few decent crossfield balls, but on the whole, yeah - he needs to cop some bench.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=37073.msg985087#msg985087 date=1257838594]
Heh, Lucas did surprise me by playing a few decent crossfield balls, but on the whole, yeah - he needs to cop some bench.
[/quote]

My eyes, and the chart show that Mascherano played all the decent crossfield balls. Lucas' longest "pass" is a corner.
 
I win a fair amount of money each season betting on football but predominantly on lower league football. This season however I am backing against us everytime Lucas starts an away match and in some home game too - I am up over £1,000 just on what I call "Lucas matches". I won again last night - I would much rather lose or not even bet i.e. Lucas doesn't get picked but I am going to continue my Lucas bets until he gets drops because the money is a small crumb of comfort.

I haven't checked the ratings from last night but if anyone gave him over 6 they need their heads examined. He was a 5.
 
He offers or practically nothing at all on the pitch. He is no threat to the opposition and no help to our defence.... He is slow on the ball, slow in his feet, and actually drags down any tempo we put on a game... he is a frustrating fuck to watch.
 
This is a very interesting post. After a layoff of several years and lurking around several LFC sites, I finally a find a bunch of posters who actually call it as they see it and are not a bunch of blind ostriches showing stupid devotion to Rafa and Rafa-protégés like Lucas.

Anyway, back to the topic, I believe there is a need for a dual-distinction with respect to central midfielders –positional and role-wise.

Positionally, all midfielders can be classified into either ‘holding’ or ‘advanced’ central midfielders. Therefore, calling a player a ‘holding’ central midfielder would be to simply say that he ‘holds’ the deeper of the two central midfield positions whereas calling a player an ‘advanced’ central midfielder would to say that he plays the higher of the two positions.

Clearly then, Mascherano is the ‘holding’ player and Lucas the ‘advanced’ player. Just as last season, Alonso was the ‘holding’ player and Mascherano the ‘advanced’ player

Role-wise, however, the distinction is entirely different. The roles that a central midfielder might play may be several – that of a defensive shield, an enforcer/ball-winner, a playmaker and a box-to-box player.

Defensive Shield – Out of all these roles, the only one actually linked to the position is the role of the defensive-shield which needs mandatorily to be played by the ‘holding’ player. The defensive shield doesn’t necessarily mean the player who’s the best tackler or who has the highest work-rate but is simply the player who rests before the defence, mopping up everything, making clearances, picking the ball up from the defence and organising things from the defence onwards. Hamann played this role for years and Alonso took it over subsequently, playing it with even greater aplomb. Possibly one of the most important attributes required of this role is the ability to shield the ball, something Hamann used to do brilliantly and something Alonso also picked up brilliantly over time, cue the amount of red cards he drew simply by shielding the ball.

Playmaker – Self-explanatory. However, it’s important to understand that a playmaker is not linked with the position in the central midfield. It’s a role that may be played by either the holding or the advanced player. Alonso and Carrick are ‘holding’ playmakers whereas Fabregas and Scholes are ‘advanced’ ones.

Enforcer/Ball-winner – Generally played by the player in the ‘advanced’ position though it may be played by the ‘holding’ player as well. The best central midfielders in Premier Leagues have played this role – the likes of Vieira, Keane and amongst the current crop Essien, Noble etc. Mascherano played this role last year.

Box-to-Box – A player accustomed to bombing the box with runs and scoring goals – the likes of a younger Gerrard, Lampard and Ballack (though all of them have changed considerably to become either playmakers or enforcers or a combination of all of them).


A perfect central midfield constituting of a ‘holding’ and an ‘advanced’ player should therefore necessarily have at least three of the above roles covered by the two players. While last year’s set-up had Alonso playing the defensive-shield cum playmaker, Mascherano played the enforcer/ball-winner role very well. This season, with the departure of Alonso, Mascherano has dropped to the ‘holding’ position and started playing the role of the defensive-shield cum enforcer/ball winner.

The problem, however, has been that Lucas is inept at playing any of the four roles mentioned above. He cannot be a defensive shield – he’s way too slow, lacks strength, is prone to committing silly fouls in dangerous areas and above all has no ability to organise things from the defence onwards. This is because he never ever demands the ball. I can’t thing of a single successful defensive-shield lacking the confidence to demand the ball from the defence. Alonso was brilliant at it and he could do much more with the ball than just organise the defence. Mascherano is also excellent at it though his ability with the ball is limited to organising the midfield in front of him rather than actually making plays. At any rate, it is sufficient for a defensive-shield.
Neither can Lucas play as an enforcer, a playmaker or a ball-winner – he has neither the pace, the passing range, the tackling, the confidence or the shooting to play any of these roles effectively. Which seriously makes you wonder what he’s doing in the team and how your central midfield is deprived of one role completely. Farmkmaster’s point is very valid, the people claiming Lucas has ‘improved’ seem to blinded by the fact that he tries nothing that he is poor at. He’s at best a scrappy, safe-passing central midfielder with little influence on the game. And in a league, where the champions and the best teams are what they are because of their strength in the middle, Lucas is a liability we can’t afford.
 
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=37073.msg985101#msg985101 date=1257840636]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=37073.msg985087#msg985087 date=1257838594]
Heh, Lucas did surprise me by playing a few decent crossfield balls, but on the whole, yeah - he needs to cop some bench.
[/quote]

My eyes, and the chart show that Mascherano played all the decent crossfield balls. Lucas' longest "pass" is a corner.
[/quote]

Heh, alright chill out... I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying. He did hit a couple of long passes, which amused me due to the surprise element though.

At least Rafa didn't leave sub Masher off.
 
One is a defensive midfielder. The other is a c---... oh never mind.

Not sure I quite agree with everything there, dmishra, but a well-thought-out post nonetheless. Welcome to the site, by the way. Stick around.
 
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=37073.msg985115#msg985115 date=1257842435]
This is a very interesting post. After a layoff of several years and lurking around several LFC sites, I finally a find a bunch of posters who actually call it as they see it and are not a bunch of blind ostriches showing stupid devotion to Rafa and Rafa-protégés like Lucas.

Anyway, back to the topic, I believe there is a need for a dual-distinction with respect to central midfielders –positional and role-wise.

Positionally, all midfielders can be classified into either ‘holding’ or ‘advanced’ central midfielders. Therefore, calling a player a ‘holding’ central midfielder would be to simply say that he ‘holds’ the deeper of the two central midfield positions whereas calling a player an ‘advanced’ central midfielder would to say that he plays the higher of the two positions.

Clearly then, Mascherano is the ‘holding’ player and Lucas the ‘advanced’ player. Just as last season, Alonso was the ‘holding’ player and Mascherano the ‘advanced’ player

Role-wise, however, the distinction is entirely different. The roles that a central midfielder might play may be several – that of a defensive shield, an enforcer/ball-winner, a playmaker and a box-to-box player.

Defensive Shield – Out of all these roles, the only one actually linked to the position is the role of the defensive-shield which needs mandatorily to be played by the ‘holding’ player. The defensive shield doesn’t necessarily mean the player who’s the best tackler or who has the highest work-rate but is simply the player who rests before the defence, mopping up everything, making clearances, picking the ball up from the defence and organising things from the defence onwards. Hamann played this role for years and Alonso took it over subsequently, playing it with even greater aplomb. Possibly one of the most important attributes required of this role is the ability to shield the ball, something Hamann used to do brilliantly and something Alonso also picked up brilliantly over time, cue the amount of red cards he drew simply by shielding the ball.

Playmaker – Self-explanatory. However, it’s important to understand that a playmaker is not linked with the position in the central midfield. It’s a role that may be played by either the holding or the advanced player. Alonso and Carrick are ‘holding’ playmakers whereas Fabregas and Scholes are ‘advanced’ ones.

Enforcer/Ball-winner – Generally played by the player in the ‘advanced’ position though it may be played by the ‘holding’ player as well. The best central midfielders in Premier Leagues have played this role – the likes of Vieira, Keane and amongst the current crop Essien, Noble etc. Mascherano played this role last year.

Box-to-Box – A player accustomed to bombing the box with runs and scoring goals – the likes of a younger Gerrard, Lampard and Ballack (though all of them have changed considerably to become either playmakers or enforcers or a combination of all of them).


A perfect central midfield constituting of a ‘holding’ and an ‘advanced’ player should therefore necessarily have at least three of the above roles covered by the two players. While last year’s set-up had Alonso playing the defensive-shield cum playmaker, Mascherano played the enforcer/ball-winner role very well. This season, with the departure of Alonso, Mascherano has dropped to the ‘holding’ position and started playing the role of the defensive-shield cum enforcer/ball winner.

The problem, however, has been that Lucas is inept at playing any of the four roles mentioned above. He cannot be a defensive shield – he’s way too slow, lacks strength, is prone to committing silly fouls in dangerous areas and above all has no ability to organise things from the defence onwards. This is because he never ever demands the ball. I can’t thing of a single successful defensive-shield lacking the confidence to demand the ball from the defence. Alonso was brilliant at it and he could do much more with the ball than just organise the defence. Mascherano is also excellent at it though his ability with the ball is limited to organising the midfield in front of him rather than actually making plays. At any rate, it is sufficient for a defensive-shield.
Neither can Lucas play as an enforcer, a playmaker or a ball-winner – he has neither the pace, the passing range, the tackling, the confidence or the shooting to play any of these roles effectively. Which seriously makes you wonder what he’s doing in the team and how your central midfield is deprived of one role completely. Farmkmaster’s point is very valid, the people claiming Lucas has ‘improved’ seem to blinded by the fact that he tries nothing that he is poor at. He’s at best a scrappy, safe-passing central midfielder with little influence on the game. And in a league, where the champions and the best teams are what they are because of their strength in the middle, Lucas is a liability we can’t afford.

[/quote]

Say he's inept is a bit harsh as he's shown improvement of late. He's never going to be any more than average at his very best though
 
I didn't think he played that badly. A couple of times he tried to carry the ball forward. Played some decent passes.

He was not the reason we drew last night.
 
[quote author=dossena link=topic=37073.msg985148#msg985148 date=1257844785]
I didn't think he played that badly. A couple of times he tried to carry the ball forward. Played some decent passes.

He was not the reason we drew last night.
[/quote]

Johnson, Mascher and Eggnog were the reasons we drew last night, Lucas was the reason we didn't win.
 
How is Lucas to blame ? Thats over the top. The lad was far from our worst player last night
 
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=37073.msg985151#msg985151 date=1257845033]
[quote author=dossena link=topic=37073.msg985148#msg985148 date=1257844785]
I didn't think he played that badly. A couple of times he tried to carry the ball forward. Played some decent passes.

He was not the reason we drew last night.
[/quote]

Johnson, Mascher and Eggnog were the reasons we drew last night, Lucas was the reason we didn't win.
[/quote]
I think you're wrong.

Benayoun, Riera and Kuyt were more culpable.

He didn't play at all bad last night.
 
[quote author=dossena link=topic=37073.msg985148#msg985148 date=1257844785]
I didn't think he played that badly. A couple of times he tried to carry the ball forward. Played some decent passes.

He was not the reason we drew last night.
[/quote]

I'm not saying he played that badly, I'm saying he did very little quite competently, and because we have been stuck with him, and because he's not utterly shit, some have forgotten what else a midfielder could be doing, especially when Javier Mascherano is masterfully running shit behind them.
 
[quote author=dossena link=topic=37073.msg985154#msg985154 date=1257845219]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=37073.msg985151#msg985151 date=1257845033]
[quote author=dossena link=topic=37073.msg985148#msg985148 date=1257844785]
I didn't think he played that badly. A couple of times he tried to carry the ball forward. Played some decent passes.

He was not the reason we drew last night.
[/quote]

Johnson, Mascher and Eggnog were the reasons we drew last night, Lucas was the reason we didn't win.
[/quote]
I think you're wrong.

Benayoun, Riera and Kuyt were more culpable.

He didn't play at all bad last night.


[/quote]

I was exaggerating for comic effect, last night was not his worst performance in a LFC shirt and Kuyt, Riera and Insua were worse than him but Kuyt and Riera have both had good games for LFC previously whereas Lucas is nearly always shite and sometimes raises his game to insignificant such as last night's game.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=37073.msg985104#msg985104 date=1257841209]
Agreed

Some of the ratings given to this insipid mediocrity in that thread are, frankly, depressing
[/quote]

He made two excellent forward passes yesterday, which actually surprised me. The fact that I was surprised however, is a measure of what I've come to expect of him.

And therein lies the problem. I think people have become guilty of rating him based on what he's capable of rather than what you expect from a first choice Liverpool midfielder. He's just far too limited. As I said before though, I don't think any of that is his fault.
 
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=37073.msg985161#msg985161 date=1257846271]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=37073.msg985104#msg985104 date=1257841209]
Agreed

Some of the ratings given to this insipid mediocrity in that thread are, frankly, depressing
[/quote]

He made two excellent forward passes yesterday, which actually surprised me. The fact that I was surprised however, is a measure of what I've come to expect of him.

And therein lies the problem. I think people have become guilty of rating him based on what he's capable of rather than what you expect from a first choice Liverpool midfielder. He's just far too limited. As I said before though, I don't think any of that is his fault.
[/quote]

The evidence suggest your wrong. All his passes are in the first post of this thread, and there is only one that very ditantly could suggest to be excellent and forward >🙁 >🙁
 
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=37073.msg985115#msg985115 date=1257842435]
This is a very interesting post. After a layoff of several years and lurking around several LFC sites, I finally a find a bunch of posters who actually call it as they see it and are not a bunch of blind ostriches showing stupid devotion to Rafa and Rafa-protégés like Lucas.

Anyway, back to the topic, I believe there is a need for a dual-distinction with respect to central midfielders –positional and role-wise.

Positionally, all midfielders can be classified into either ‘holding’ or ‘advanced’ central midfielders. Therefore, calling a player a ‘holding’ central midfielder would be to simply say that he ‘holds’ the deeper of the two central midfield positions whereas calling a player an ‘advanced’ central midfielder would to say that he plays the higher of the two positions.

Clearly then, Mascherano is the ‘holding’ player and Lucas the ‘advanced’ player. Just as last season, Alonso was the ‘holding’ player and Mascherano the ‘advanced’ player

Role-wise, however, the distinction is entirely different. The roles that a central midfielder might play may be several – that of a defensive shield, an enforcer/ball-winner, a playmaker and a box-to-box player.

Defensive Shield – Out of all these roles, the only one actually linked to the position is the role of the defensive-shield which needs mandatorily to be played by the ‘holding’ player. The defensive shield doesn’t necessarily mean the player who’s the best tackler or who has the highest work-rate but is simply the player who rests before the defence, mopping up everything, making clearances, picking the ball up from the defence and organising things from the defence onwards. Hamann played this role for years and Alonso took it over subsequently, playing it with even greater aplomb. Possibly one of the most important attributes required of this role is the ability to shield the ball, something Hamann used to do brilliantly and something Alonso also picked up brilliantly over time, cue the amount of red cards he drew simply by shielding the ball.

Playmaker – Self-explanatory. However, it’s important to understand that a playmaker is not linked with the position in the central midfield. It’s a role that may be played by either the holding or the advanced player. Alonso and Carrick are ‘holding’ playmakers whereas Fabregas and Scholes are ‘advanced’ ones.

Enforcer/Ball-winner – Generally played by the player in the ‘advanced’ position though it may be played by the ‘holding’ player as well. The best central midfielders in Premier Leagues have played this role – the likes of Vieira, Keane and amongst the current crop Essien, Noble etc. Mascherano played this role last year.

Box-to-Box – A player accustomed to bombing the box with runs and scoring goals – the likes of a younger Gerrard, Lampard and Ballack (though all of them have changed considerably to become either playmakers or enforcers or a combination of all of them).


A perfect central midfield constituting of a ‘holding’ and an ‘advanced’ player should therefore necessarily have at least three of the above roles covered by the two players. While last year’s set-up had Alonso playing the defensive-shield cum playmaker, Mascherano played the enforcer/ball-winner role very well. This season, with the departure of Alonso, Mascherano has dropped to the ‘holding’ position and started playing the role of the defensive-shield cum enforcer/ball winner.

The problem, however, has been that Lucas is inept at playing any of the four roles mentioned above. He cannot be a defensive shield – he’s way too slow, lacks strength, is prone to committing silly fouls in dangerous areas and above all has no ability to organise things from the defence onwards. This is because he never ever demands the ball. I can’t thing of a single successful defensive-shield lacking the confidence to demand the ball from the defence. Alonso was brilliant at it and he could do much more with the ball than just organise the defence. Mascherano is also excellent at it though his ability with the ball is limited to organising the midfield in front of him rather than actually making plays. At any rate, it is sufficient for a defensive-shield.
Neither can Lucas play as an enforcer, a playmaker or a ball-winner – he has neither the pace, the passing range, the tackling, the confidence or the shooting to play any of these roles effectively. Which seriously makes you wonder what he’s doing in the team and how your central midfield is deprived of one role completely. Farmkmaster’s point is very valid, the people claiming Lucas has ‘improved’ seem to blinded by the fact that he tries nothing that he is poor at. He’s at best a scrappy, safe-passing central midfielder with little influence on the game. And in a league, where the champions and the best teams are what they are because of their strength in the middle, Lucas is a liability we can’t afford.

[/quote]

Great analysis. Agree, pretty much word for word.
 
I don't wanna knock Lucas as I think he works really hard etc and it's not his fault he's being suited up as a replacement for Alonso.

But I asked this question a few weeks ago; what is he?

He's not a holding midfielder.
He's not box to box.
He's not an offensive midfielder.

I said sometime ago that he was too much of a 'nothing' player, as in he has no defined role in the team.
 
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