Was winning the CL a bad thing?

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=39274.msg1068752#msg1068752 date=1268469158]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=39274.msg1068733#msg1068733 date=1268461996]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39274.msg1068731#msg1068731 date=1268461713]
you could argue the opposite, i.e it put unrealistic pressure on the team to better that achievement. okay there have been no cups in 4 years but in those four years we reached the CL (again) and just last season challenged for the league.
[/quote]

We are LFC.

We exist to win the trophies or at least challenge most seasons and any manager that doesn't manage that walks.

[/quote]

I've changed a bit which then sort of answers your question Pat. How could it have been a bad thing? We could have not won it and we'd still have had the same number of years under Rafa.
[/quote]

Do you really think he'd have been given 6 years with 1 Fa Cup and one title challenge?

Don't forget the other years we were out of the race by Oct.

Jesus Arsenal have gotten thumped but the big boys this year and even after some awful defeats and not much strengthening of their squad they find themselves joint top.

I think some fans have fooled themselves into thinking winning the league is impossible.

 

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39274.msg1068920#msg1068920 date=1268496969]
I think our fans should have high expectations and demand to be picking up silverware year after year.

But suggesting that winning a massive trophy was "bad" for this club is fucking ridiculous.

[/quote]

I was referring to it in relation to the fact that it has kept Rafa in a job he shouldn't have.

His no1 objective was to win the league.

6 years on and we are in a way worse position that when it first took over.

Of course winning no5 was amazing, no denying that, the downside of it is that Rafa has used his European record to shield the fact he has been a total and utter failure in the league.

 

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=39274.msg1069003#msg1069003 date=1268510328]
I don't think Squiggs' version *was* the suggestion though. I read the original post as asking whether too many allowances have been made for a poor overall record on Rafa's part because of that stunning initial success, which IMO is a legitimate question to ask.

That said, my answer would be "no". Our progress hasn't been good enough, but our record hasn't been so disastrous that one can write off the whole of Rafa's time in charge as a bad thing.
[/quote]

That was my meaning, maybe a bad choice of title so :-\

But I would say yes, if we finish 5/6/7 and Rafa leaves in the summer,then yes his time here has been a failure.

At least Ged, left us with a basis if a good squad and 5 trophies.

 

[Squiggles]

[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=39274.msg1069059#msg1069059 date=1268540030]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=39274.msg1069003#msg1069003 date=1268510328]
I don't think Squiggs' version *was* the suggestion though. I read the original post as asking whether too many allowances have been made for a poor overall record on Rafa's part because of that stunning initial success, which IMO is a legitimate question to ask.

That said, my answer would be "no". Our progress hasn't been good enough, but our record hasn't been so disastrous that one can write off the whole of Rafa's time in charge as a bad thing.
[/quote]

That was my meaning, maybe a bad choice of title so :-\

But I would say yes, if we finish 5/6/7 and Rafa leaves in the summer,then yes his time here has been a failure.

At least Ged, left us with a basis if a good squad and 5 trophies.
[/quote]

Last year the same squad collected more points in the Premiership than *any* of Houllier's teams.

If Benitez does walk, he'll leave the club in good shape.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=39274.msg1069056#msg1069056 date=1268539487]
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=39274.msg1068746#msg1068746 date=1268467165]
Holy fuck.

Yes, we've really been suffering under Benitez on the whole haven't we. Actually, no, we've been seen as genuine title challengers through to the end of a season, and we have been seen as a dominant force in European football.

Yes, it's all gone quite strange and awful recently, but Rafa has improved our club considerably.

The problem is that, for reasons wholly out of our control, and wholly unrelated to football, Rafa's football failures of late may well have far more dire consequences than they would have years ago.
[/quote]

Look at whichever way you like, but the bottom line is Rafa was brought in to win the league.
When he leaves we'll be further that ever.

That makes him a failure. The fact that we could actually finish 7th is sickening. And the fact that some fans blame anyone but the manager makes it even more disgusting.

F*cking Bolton just beat Wigan 4-0. We are the joke of the league right now.
[/quote]

We won't be 'further than ever'. What a load of exaggerated, hyper bollocks.

 

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=39274.msg1069059#msg1069059 date=1268540030]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=39274.msg1069003#msg1069003 date=1268510328]
I don't think Squiggs' version *was* the suggestion though. I read the original post as asking whether too many allowances have been made for a poor overall record on Rafa's part because of that stunning initial success, which IMO is a legitimate question to ask.

That said, my answer would be "no". Our progress hasn't been good enough, but our record hasn't been so disastrous that one can write off the whole of Rafa's time in charge as a bad thing.
[/quote]

That was my meaning, maybe a bad choice of title so :-\

But I would say yes, if we finish 5/6/7 and Rafa leaves in the summer,then yes his time here has been a failure.

At least Ged, left us with a basis if a good squad and 5 trophies.
[/quote]

That's a different question though, a wider one than just asking about the "Istanbul effect". This time I agree with your conclusion and TBF so would Rafa, who said himself in an interview not long ago that he'll have failed if he doesn't bring the title home to Anfield.

 

[Avmenon]

The answer as to whether Rafa has been a failure or not is clear.

The problem is what to do next.

 

[Spionkop69]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=39274.msg1069162#msg1069162 date=1268580647]

The answer as to whether Rafa has been a failure or not is clear.

The problem is what to do next.
[/quote]

He has been a failure this season. Agree with your second sentence though.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Yes Pat, winning the CL was a bad thing just like winning any trophy.

 

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39274.msg1069063#msg1069063 date=1268545890]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=39274.msg1069059#msg1069059 date=1268540030]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=39274.msg1069003#msg1069003 date=1268510328]
I don't think Squiggs' version *was* the suggestion though. I read the original post as asking whether too many allowances have been made for a poor overall record on Rafa's part because of that stunning initial success, which IMO is a legitimate question to ask.

That said, my answer would be "no". Our progress hasn't been good enough, but our record hasn't been so disastrous that one can write off the whole of Rafa's time in charge as a bad thing.
[/quote]

That was my meaning, maybe a bad choice of title so :-\

But I would say yes, if we finish 5/6/7 and Rafa leaves in the summer,then yes his time here has been a failure.

At least Ged, left us with a basis if a good squad and 5 trophies.
[/quote]

Last year the same squad collected more points in the Premiership than *any* of Houllier's teams.

If Benitez does walk, he'll leave the club in good shape.


[/quote]

Minus Alonso and possible alot more in the summer.

 

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=39274.msg1069101#msg1069101 date=1268564738]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=39274.msg1069056#msg1069056 date=1268539487]
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=39274.msg1068746#msg1068746 date=1268467165]
Holy fuck.

Yes, we've really been suffering under Benitez on the whole haven't we. Actually, no, we've been seen as genuine title challengers through to the end of a season, and we have been seen as a dominant force in European football.

Yes, it's all gone quite strange and awful recently, but Rafa has improved our club considerably.

The problem is that, for reasons wholly out of our control, and wholly unrelated to football, Rafa's football failures of late may well have far more dire consequences than they would have years ago.
[/quote]

Look at whichever way you like, but the bottom line is Rafa was brought in to win the league.
When he leaves we'll be further that ever.

That makes him a failure. The fact that we could actually finish 7th is sickening. And the fact that some fans blame anyone but the manager makes it even more disgusting.

F*cking Bolton just beat Wigan 4-0. We are the joke of the league right now.
[/quote]

We won't be 'further than ever'. What a load of exaggerated, hyper bollocks.
[/quote]

Mark, do you really think if Rafa leaves and we finish 5/6/7 that we will be closer than we were when Ged left?

 

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=39274.msg1069179#msg1069179 date=1268583324]
Yes Pat, winning the CL was a bad thing just like winning any trophy.
[/quote]

Maybe I should have phrased it in terms of our changes of winning the league.

 

[Ryan]

"Maybe"

 

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39274.msg1069341#msg1069341 date=1268614400]
"Maybe"
[/quote]

Well you don't like smiley's and there is no sarcastic font so what can you do.

Your assertion all season is that I should wait until the end of the season before I go all negative on Rafa and the team and that we would play our way out of trouble.

9 games to go and that assertion is looking a long way off now.
The time for excuses is over. There are a number of outside factors affecting us now, but the primary one is the manager.

Alot of football comes down to confidence and right now we have zero, even our big players have zero and Rafa is not the man to instill it and I haven't thought he was for a long time.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=39274.msg1069345#msg1069345 date=1268614745]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39274.msg1069341#msg1069341 date=1268614400]
"Maybe"
[/quote]

Well you don't like smiley's and there is no sarcastic font so what can you do.

Your assertion all season is that I should wait until the end of the season before I go all negative on Rafa and the team and that we would play our way out of trouble.

9 games to go and that assertion is looking a long way off now.
The time for excuses is over. There are a number of outside factors affecting us now, but the primary one is the manager.

Alot of football comes down to confidence and right now we have zero, even our big players have zero and Rafa is not the man to instill it and I haven't thought he was for a long time.
[/quote]

Fair enough Dreamy.