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Tottenham Riots

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Spion you are picking and choosing which 'evidence' you believe here. Smiley Culture plunged a knife into himself yup defo makes sense. Police bullet found lodged in the radio..ooh its the Guardian hmm yeah maybe I won't accept that then...just cos its the Guardian?

Thing is I agree with things bubbling away and lots and lots of people looting etc being opportunistic and I think the majority of stuff last night was just cos they didnt get involved the night before and decided to try and get some free stuff also.
Having said all that though, we assume in this case its cos people were taking advantage of a situation, similarily we though that about the student led riots earlier in the year. We never assume its that in other countries Greece being an example from this year alone.
 
[quote author=Atlas link=topic=46360.msg1376168#msg1376168 date=1312805144]
Spion you are picking and choosing which 'evidence' you believe here. Smiley Culture plunged a knife into himself yup defo makes sense. Police bullet found lodged in the radio..ooh its the Guardian hmm yeah maybe I won't accept that then...just cos its the Guardian?[/quote]

Smiley Culture definitely died of a stab would to his chest during a police raid. That is what we know. So either he killed himself or the police killed him. Given that the police would have little reason to kill him and he would have had plenty of reason to kill himself (being pretty much guaranteed to be on his way to prison) I would probably go with the suicide theory.

[quote author=Atlas link=topic=46360.msg1376168#msg1376168 date=1312805144]Thing is I agree with things bubbling away and lots and lots of people looting etc being opportunistic and I think the majority of stuff last night was just cos they didnt get involved the night before and decided to try and get some free stuff also.
Having said all that though, we assume in this case its cos people were taking advantage of a situation, similarily we though that about the student led riots earlier in the year. We never assume its that in other countries Greece being an example from this year alone.
[/quote]

Yes, that is a fair point.
 
Fair enough its a theory and fine to go along with it if you wish I have no problem with that, I just wanted to highligh the point..no 'evidence' to say how it happened (as far as I know) and its accepted as truth. 'Evidence' (which has been verified now I believe) to suggest it was police who fired shots is dismissed without real consideration due to being from the Guardian.
 
[quote author=Atlas link=topic=46360.msg1376180#msg1376180 date=1312806222]
Fair enough its a theory and fine to go along with it if you wish I have no problem with that, I just wanted to highligh the point..no 'evidence' to say how it happened (as far as I know) and its accepted as truth. 'Evidence' (which has been verified now I believe) to suggest it was police who fired shots is dismissed without real consideration due to being from the Guardian.
[/quote]

Well I haven't heard any other solid theories regarding what happened. Most of the argument is centred around whether he should have been allowed access to the kitchen in the first place rather than accusing police of killing him.

I am not sure if it has been confirmed regarding the bullets or not, but one source, whatever it is, is not especially reliable on its own, especially when there is an investigation going on to discover what really happened, which we will hear at some point.
It has been confirmed that he had a gun, so whether he did fire at police or not doesn't necessarily matter anyway. If he had pointed it or even made a move for his gun that would have been enough.
 
If we're only going by what was confirmed, then it's only known a non-police issued firearm was found at the scene. They haven't confirmed that it was in Duggan's possession.
 
[quote author=MC Golgotha link=topic=46360.msg1376211#msg1376211 date=1312809564]

If we're only going by what was confirmed, then it's only known a non-police issued firearm was found at the scene. They haven't confirmed that it was in Duggan's possession.
[/quote]

Yes that's true.
 
Going by past events, if he was killed unlawfully (i.e. he might have been in possession of the found gun but wasn't offering a threat) then the IPCC will string out their investigation, then refuse to publish a report and pass the case to the CPS (citing that publication of the report would hinder prosecution). The CPS will then take about 18 months to decide there isn't enough evidence to bring charges. That's what usually happens when the Met murder someone.

If the killing was justified, then we'll hear a lot sooner.

At the moment the Met are probably loving the spread of the criminal rioting unconnected to the Duggan case. They can get all morally indignant about that and use it to blanket the coverage of the whole affair. You can usually rely on people to give the establishment exactly what they want in a time like this.
 
The thing is that if he was posing a threat with the gun then it practical terms it may be more difficult to prove it.

If it was found in his pocket for example then yes, he had a gun but it was hardly threatening with it. If it was found at the scene but not in his hand then unless there were eyewitness accounts, it could have been anyone's and the report could only say that a gun was found at the scene.

So that is where this becomes a problem for the police. If the coppers themselves say that he was pointing the gun at them but the report just says that there was a gun there but it can't be 100% proved it was his, who is more likely to be believed by the public? I would suggest it would not be the police. Yet if the report says that he was definitely in possession of a gun, it was in his pocket all the time, that then makes the position of the police even worse.
 
That's a problem that exists in any testimony where intent is the issue though. The specific problem the Met have, as you've pointed out, is their lack of credibility with the public. But then, they've only got themselves to blame for that. People have seen people die in custody and people killed in the streets without due cause, and there has never been accountability. No wonder nobody takes them at their word.

It's too early to make any real comparisons, but my initial reaction was that this case bears some resemblance to the Azelle Rodney incident. Nobody was ever held accountable for that (despite the IPCC concluding that Rodney was not holding a firearm when he was shot six times in the face), and the police used RIPA to obstruct the inquest.

Of course, if Duggan did pose a clear and present danger then the shooting was probably justified. Although I would question the need to attempt the arrest in an uncontrolled environment like a vehicle. If they genuinely thought he posed a threat to them if challenged, then it seems to me there might have been better ways to handle it. But I'm neither a marksman nor a police strategist, so I'm happy to stand corrected.
 
[quote author=Atlas link=topic=46360.msg1376235#msg1376235 date=1312813491]
How has this been reported in news around the world out of interest please.
[/quote]Around here, bout the same as your news on the other side of the hill.
 
The Youth of the Middle East rise up for basic freedoms.The Youth of London rise up for a HD ready 42" Plasma TV.
 
[quote author=Atlas link=topic=46360.msg1376238#msg1376238 date=1312813790]
The Youth of the Middle East rise up for basic freedoms.The Youth of London rise up for a HD ready 42" Plasma TV.
[/quote]

It did make the news here.
On TV news it didn't make the main headlines, but they did show a burning bus and houses and rioters confronting police officers. They showed the MP for Tottenham speaking.
On the news websites - see an example: http://news.walla.co.il/?w=/2/1848395 (you obviously can't read it (you probably don't have the appropriate fonts) but you can get the idea.
 
Cool Jimmy whats the thing saying then, is it a case of rioting as a result of a guy being killed by police or rioting for giggles
 
When something like this goes down, it's always the surprise of everyone that gets me. How can anyone be surprised at anything like this nowadays? You pack people in to areas like this where it's essentially scum x scum (not tarring everyone with that brush, but throw 10 darts and 7 just hit a scumbag) and sooner or later it will kick off like this.

As for the police, well they can be just as bad in situations like this, some of the fuckers almost revel in it. I've known a few coppers (all but 1 of which were bellends), and it seems like that there's 2 type of people who go into the force these days; idealistic fools who think they can make a difference, and people looking for a power trip, an excuse to drive fast, or a way to score lots of free drugs. Maybe that's just up this way, but I'd be inclined to believe that it's representative to some extent of the UK police as a whole.
 
[quote author=Fallon link=topic=46360.msg1376266#msg1376266 date=1312816155]
(not tarring everyone with that brush, but throw 10 darts and 7 just hit a scumbag)
[/quote]

One of em was Carlton Cole
 
It's saying that it started in Tottenham as a response to that guy being killed by the police, but it's now spreading to other parts of the city and (quoting the police) it's now ran by criminals who are taking advantage of the situation.
 
[quote author=Richey link=topic=46360.msg1376276#msg1376276 date=1312817832]
What else would you suggest should be done for the people in that area then Fallon?


[/quote]

There's not a lot that can be done without radically changing attitudes, you have to stop kid's being brought up (Country wide problem, not just London) where they think it's ok to doss about, be a prick, live on benefits and generally be a waster (or worse) day in day out. Also where's the disincentive to not be like that? They do it because they can get away with it, and so what if they get caught? Say they get sent down for a 12 month sentence for something, they'll end up having a piss about for 4 months with their mates, while watching sky and playing xbox.

The problem is you can't openly discriminate against people in anyway, personally I'd tell some of the little gobshites thinking they'll be getting everything given to them just where to fucking go, but then you get into the realms of deciders and moral superiority, and that's a rocky road.

Right now I'd get it all settled down and keep a beady eye, too much of a police presence will just stir shit again so it's going to be somewhat of a balancing act over the next couple of weeks.
 
The young gentlemen and ladies of Hackney are now getting on the looting bandwagon. :🙂
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=46360.msg1376321#msg1376321 date=1312823796]
She was on TV yesterday saying we all have to take responsibility.
[/quote]

I'm certainly not taking responsibility. The people who think its ok to smash up shops and burn people's houses down should take responsibility
 
[quote author=Atlas link=topic=46360.msg1376299#msg1376299 date=1312820536]
JD Sports looted again..
[/quote]They'll be plenty of these bad boys on ebay tonight
images
 
Hackney, Lewisham and Peckham now. There is a pattern. Ian Tomlinson killed by police = public enquiry. Mark Duggan killed by police = public rioting. If this riot happened in Spain these people would be put in their place by water cannon, tear gas and batons. Cant we get the Guardia Civil over to quash it? We're clearly too sensitive to do it. Its a fucking disgrace.
 
i'd love tear gas and shit to be used. it'd be proper lol watching all these tits who prob think they're the dogs, running around in tears, choking






i'm a little bit malicious there
 
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