The Suarez/Evra Racism Row

[Insignificance]

[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47188.msg1479076#msg1479076 date=1328690073]
The longer this goes on, the worse it is for our club internally and externally. We need to do what we used to do best - win and shut everyone up. It's the only response we should be focusing on.

Your point re: the media is valid everywhere. This has only reinforced, as I said earlier, what many around the world feel about the British mentality.
[/quote]

That is wrong my friend. the media in England is hysterical, greedy, lying shit and not worth a fucking penny. If you believe it is just as bad elsewhere you are wrong. Media is tabloid elsewhere aslso, and I have both lived abroad and travels a lot, but no where near as trash as in UK. Do you think it was a coincidence that NOTW scandal happened there? Nope.

 

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=Insignificance link=topic=47188.msg1479067#msg1479067 date=1328689262]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47188.msg1478919#msg1478919 date=1328641286]
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=47188.msg1478913#msg1478913 date=1328641148]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47188.msg1478906#msg1478906 date=1328640556]
I think it's time to let this go. Though I think the report was a sham, a sham that typifies the many prejudices people hold of Brits, it's over. It's finished.

Nothing is going to change here - not for Suarez, or Kenny, or Liverpool, or the majority of Liverpool fans, or rival fans etc.

Until something comes out in the future (& it probably will), this case should remain shut and let both players and clubs move on.

Walk on ...
[/quote]

Actually Kenny brought it up last night in his after the match comments, the papers are all over 'racist Liverpool' again
[/quote]

It was a mistake on his part. We should focus on footy and the challenges (Cup final, FA Cup, 4th) ahead, not this episode. Let it die - at least in the media etc, and use it as a motivational tool internally (us against the world mentality used by many great managers).
[/quote]

It was not a mistake. Kenny is a leader who stands up for his people, and what Suarez needs is someone who stands up for him. The media in England is a shame. The power they have on the general opinion should be used with care, but they rather insists on spouting shit. I am actually quite surprised to see how far and how low they are willing to go for a stupid headline or a false story. And in that content it is important that LFC have leaders who stand up for their people, and in KK we have that! What is the alternative? To bow and let the fuckhead shallow journos have it their way? No fucking chance!
[/quote]

I agree. Sometimes you just have to stand up for principles. Not doing so is the greatest risk of all.

 

[Rosco]

Yes, let's all stand up for the right to call black men "negro".

Well done you principled men.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1479125#msg1479125 date=1328695128]
Yes, let's all stand up for the right to call black men "negro".

Well done you principled men.
[/quote]

In Spain and South America too? Or are you ok with it there (and blanco, gordo, ruso etc)?

 

[Insignificance]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1479125#msg1479125 date=1328695128]
Yes, let's all stand up for the right to call black men "negro".

Well done you principled men.
[/quote]

is that what you have got out of the whole Suarez vs Evra case? Well I will stand up for the right to stupidity... No problems mate 🙂

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Insignificance link=topic=47188.msg1479133#msg1479133 date=1328695665]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1479125#msg1479125 date=1328695128]
Yes, let's all stand up for the right to call black men "negro".

Well done you principled men.
[/quote]

is that what you have got out of the whole Suarez vs Evra case? Well I will stand up for the right to stupidity... No problems mate 🙂
[/quote]

You and everyone else who thinks he is innocent has been doing that from the beginning. Continue.

 

[FoxForceFive]

I think the fact Suarez left Ajax due to a lack of support from the club & our current inability to replace him with a player of similar stature has a lot to do with kenny's stance on this.

It would be naive to think otherwise.

 

[Insignificance]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1479135#msg1479135 date=1328695731]
[quote author=Insignificance link=topic=47188.msg1479133#msg1479133 date=1328695665]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1479125#msg1479125 date=1328695128]
Yes, let's all stand up for the right to call black men "negro".

Well done you principled men.
[/quote]

is that what you have got out of the whole Suarez vs Evra case? Well I will stand up for the right to stupidity... No problems mate 🙂
[/quote]

You and everyone else who thinks he is innocent has been doing that from the beginning. Continue.
[/quote]

innocent of what? Calling a man Negro? Nope.Did he mean to provoke Evra with the word? I dont know, maybe. Did Evra start the provocation with his bullshit? Definately. But to the core, yes he said that word... I have no problem with that. Ill stand up for his rights to a fair hearing, and to a principle of being treated as others. the fucking muppet show put on by FA is a shame, and that man need some support and Kenny is doing the right thing by supporting him.

Did UEFA handle the Materazzo vs Zidan case correct by punishing both parties? I would say yes, they were fairly treated, and that is all I ask for in this case. And it has been far from it.

 

[Rosco]

How wasn't Suarez treated the same as others ?

He got a hearing as he was entitled to, like others do.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=47188.msg1479137#msg1479137 date=1328695887]
I think the fact Suarez left Ajax due to a lack of support from the club & our current inability to replace him with a player of similar stature has a lot to do with kenny's stance on this.

It would be naive to think otherwise.
[/quote]

I don't get this - he left because the club didn't support him in what? As far as I remember, he wanted to leave and Ajax didn't want to sell ...

 

[Fabio]

Re: Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row

[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47188.msg1#msg1 date=1328696194]
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=47188.msg1479137#msg1479137 date=1328695887]
I think the fact Suarez left Ajax due to a lack of support from the club & our current inability to replace him with a player of similar stature has a lot to do with kenny's stance on this.

It would be naive to think otherwise.
[/quote]

I don't get this - he left because the club didn't support him in what? As far as I remember, he wanted to leave and Ajax didn't want to sell ...
[/quote]

The biting thing I think...

 

[Insignificance]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1479141#msg1479141 date=1328696133]
How wasn't Suarez treated the same as others ?

He got a hearing as he was entitled to, like others do.
[/quote]

He is carrying an 8 match ban for something that there is a chance could have happened. Who else has done that? He got a match for whipping the finger when evidentally others have got away with the same thing, is that the same treatement as others?

 

[Judge Jules]

Some say he felt Ajax didn't support him enough over the biting incident. So what? The real point is that not a single man-jack in that club ever wanted him to go.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Re: Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row

[quote author=Fabio link=topic=47188.msg1479148#msg1479148 date=1328696361]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47188.msg1#msg1 date=1328696194]
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=47188.msg1479137#msg1479137 date=1328695887]
I think the fact Suarez left Ajax due to a lack of support from the club & our current inability to replace him with a player of similar stature has a lot to do with kenny's stance on this.

It would be naive to think otherwise.
[/quote]

I don't get this - he left because the club didn't support him in what? As far as I remember, he wanted to leave and Ajax didn't want to sell ...
[/quote]

The biting thing I think...
[/quote]

Wiki:

On 20 November 2010, Suárez was in trouble again when he bit PSV's Otman Bakkal on the shoulder during a 0–0 draw. Ajax suspended him for two games and fined him an undisclosed amount which the club said they would donate to a "good cause".[39] The Dutch daily newspaper De Telegraaf branded Suárez the "Cannibal of Ajax".[34][40] The KNVB increased Suárez's suspension to seven league matches.[41] Suárez apologized for his actions through a video he uploaded to his Facebook page.[34] During the suspension Ajax was in contact with other European clubs interested in Suárez; on 28 January 2011 they accepted a €26.5 million (£22.8 million) offer for Suárez from English club Liverpool.[42][43] Despite leaving while suspended, Suárez departed Ajax on good terms, and he was given a farewell sendoff after an Ajax game. During the sendoff an Ajax coach spoke to him and the crowd and said how the club wished he could stay longer; the crowd applauded their agreement and fireworks followed.[44]

Doesn't seem like they had much against the lad.

 

[Portly]

I rather regret that Suarez wasn't charged by the police as Terry was. If he had been, he would have had the protection of English law. As it was, he was tried by the FA kangaroo court which was a complete mockery of justice with a pre-determined verdict.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Portly link=topic=47188.msg1479159#msg1479159 date=1328696902]
I rather regret that Suarez wasn't charged by the police as Terry was. If he had been, he would have had the protection of English law. As it was, he was tried by the FA kangaroo court which was a complete mockery of justice with a pre-determined verdict.
[/quote]

What do you base this sort of comment on ?

 

[Buddha]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1479166#msg1479166 date=1328697279]
[quote author=Portly link=topic=47188.msg1479159#msg1479159 date=1328696902]
I rather regret that Suarez wasn't charged by the police as Terry was. If he had been, he would have had the protection of English law. As it was, he was tried by the FA kangaroo court which was a complete mockery of justice with a pre-determined verdict.
[/quote]

What do you base this sort of comment on ?
[/quote]

I'm assuming the content of the report has something to do with it.

 

[Rosco]

I'm assuming a lack of knowledge about how the English Court system works has more to do with it.

Otherwise you'd all be out protesting about that, probably in spandex Buddha!

 

[Judge Jules]

Except that the English court system has bugger all to do with the Suarez case, though it should have had.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1479181#msg1479181 date=1328699562]
Except that the English court system has bugger all to do with the Suarez case, though it should have had.
[/quote]

You think Suarez should have been charged with a criminal offence ?

 

[Portly]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1479166#msg1479166 date=1328697279]
What do you base this sort of comment on ?
[/quote]

I base it on the fact that the impressive-looking 115-page report was actually Evra's version of what happened in the goalmouth, which the committee had set down wholesale on the basis that they thought Evra was a reliable witness whereas Suarez wasn't. Suarez was presumed guilty and had to prove himself innocent. It was a mockery of justice which would not have lasted 5 minutes in a proper court of law. The committee themselves said they were dealing with "probabilities."

The committee concluded that in their opinion Suarez is not a racist, but I suggest they only said this to protect the FA from being sued for defamation. Nobody in the media has taken much notice of that part of the verdict, so Suarez is left with a permanent stain on his character. I see the logic in LTW's suggestion that the club should just forget about it and move on, but I don't want it to be dropped. It rankles.

 

[Asbo]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1479125#msg1479125 date=1328695128]
Yes, let's all stand up for the right to call black men "negro".

Well done you principled men.
[/quote]

You STILL don't understand it you fucking Moron

 

[Sunny]

There is no need for insults Asbo. Please pack it in.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Portly link=topic=47188.msg1479183#msg1479183 date=1328700039]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1479166#msg1479166 date=1328697279]
What do you base this sort of comment on ?
[/quote]

I base it on the fact that the impressive-looking 115-page report was actually Evra's version of what happened in the goalmouth, which the committee had set down wholesale on the basis that they thought Evra was a reliable witness whereas Suarez wasn't. Suarez was presumed guilty and had to prove himself innocent. It was a mockery of justice which would not have lasted 5 minutes in a proper court of law. The committee themselves said they were dealing with "probabilities."

The committee concluded that in their opinion Suarez is not a racist, but I suggest they only said this to protect the FA from being sued for defamation. Nobody in the media has taken much notice of that part of the verdict, so Suarez is left with a permanent stain on his character. I see the logic in LTW's suggestion that the club should just forget about it and move on, but I don't want it to be dropped. It rankles.
[/quote]

Every single civil court deals with cases on the balance of probabilities, defamation would be tried on the balance of probabilities. Suarez is free to sue the newspapers if he thinks they are defaming him. I haven't heard of any case in the works yet - because you're only entitled to the reputation you deserve, not a good one.

It was for the FA to prove the case, and they did because Suarez removed the hardest part of the job for them by his admission.

It's not just Evra's account (in which he places himself in a spot of bother - which lends it authenticity). You have to see that it's corroborated by Commoli, Kuyt and the TV evidence. Suarez's story is at odds with every other shred of evidence - that's why it was deemed unreliable and had to be. Suarez is an awful witness and his own worst enemy in this. He changed his story numerous times, initially it was the same as Kuyt and Comolli's then it changed to something more harmless. The conversation he insists happened isn't one that a reasonable person could conclude took place between two adult footballers with IQ's in double figures.

 

[Buddha]

Came across this a moment ago (from the Guardian). The bit in bold is interesting?

Suárez told the Uruguayan station Radio Sport 890: "I know against United it is going to be tense because I'm going to face Evra. But I'm used to having fans whistle at me. I hope nothing unusual happens. I'll have to forget what happened for that moment.

"I do know Man United fans are going to try to make me feel uncomfortable. But I have to tell them, they are going to spur me on if they whistle at me."

The 25-year-old also expressed his dismay with the way the incident was handled.

"I knew what I did and there is a kind of football law that says: 'What happens on the pitch, stays on the pitch and that's the end of the story.'"

 

[Jack D Rips]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1479182#msg1479182 date=1328700023]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1479181#msg1479181 date=1328699562]
Except that the English court system has bugger all to do with the Suarez case, though it should have had.
[/quote]

You think Suarez should have been charged with a criminal offence ?
[/quote]

Of course he should. If Evra felt that he had been racially abused he should have reported it to the police as well as the referee. It is a criminal offence isnt it?

 

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1479182#msg1479182 date=1328700023]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1479181#msg1479181 date=1328699562]
Except that the English court system has bugger all to do with the Suarez case, though it should have had.
[/quote]

You think Suarez should have been charged with a criminal offence ?
[/quote]

No, I think the following:

1. The FA's rules should not allow their so-called "independent" commissions to ignore the rules of evidence;

2. The standard of proof in such cases should be the criminal standard; and

3. We should have gone for judicial review after the decision was in.

Evra's account was not corroborated by Comolli, whose recollection (including a phrase which isn't even recognisable Spanish, something which the commission's adviser failed to pick up) was not considered plausible by the Professor of Spanish Language at Brown University among others. Kuyt's version, while closer to Evra's than those of his own teammates, was far from identical in its own right. The TV evidence was grotesquely partially handled by the commission in that Evra was given four cracks at explaining himself in it, Suarez none.

 

[Rosco]

Why would that be Jules ?

You're allowed meet with your own witnesses as many times as you like before a trial. It's not unusual at all

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

YAWN

 

[LeTallecWiz]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1479190#msg1479190 date=1328700517]
[quote author=Portly link=topic=47188.msg1479183#msg1479183 date=1328700039]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1479166#msg1479166 date=1328697279]
What do you base this sort of comment on ?
[/quote]

I base it on the fact that the impressive-looking 115-page report was actually Evra's version of what happened in the goalmouth, which the committee had set down wholesale on the basis that they thought Evra was a reliable witness whereas Suarez wasn't. Suarez was presumed guilty and had to prove himself innocent. It was a mockery of justice which would not have lasted 5 minutes in a proper court of law. The committee themselves said they were dealing with "probabilities."

The committee concluded that in their opinion Suarez is not a racist, but I suggest they only said this to protect the FA from being sued for defamation. Nobody in the media has taken much notice of that part of the verdict, so Suarez is left with a permanent stain on his character. I see the logic in LTW's suggestion that the club should just forget about it and move on, but I don't want it to be dropped. It rankles.
[/quote]

Every single civil court deals with cases on the balance of probabilities, defamation would be tried on the balance of probabilities. Suarez is free to sue the newspapers if he thinks they are defaming him. I haven't heard of any case in the works yet - because you're only entitled to the reputation you deserve, not a good one.

It was for the FA to prove the case, and they did because Suarez removed the hardest part of the job for them by his admission.

It's not just Evra's account (in which he places himself in a spot of bother - which lends it authenticity). You have to see that it's corroborated by Commoli, Kuyt and the TV evidence. Suarez's story is at odds with every other shred of evidence - that's why it was deemed unreliable and had to be. Suarez is an awful witness and his own worst enemy in this. He changed his story numerous times, initially it was the same as Kuyt and Comolli's then it changed to something more harmless. The conversation he insists happened isn't one that a reasonable person could conclude took place between two adult footballers with IQ's in double figures.
[/quote]

The bold part: That is exactly the kind of comment that you've made non-stop that makes me think you think he's racist. Is he or isn't he? How does he deserve the 'reputation' of one based on saying a WORD once which in his world is 100% legitimate? Please explain this to me.

You go on about Suarez being an 'awful witness' - what about Evra? Changed how many times he heard the word a few times, changed the word itself a few times, etc ... So, is he an 'awful witness' too?

Lastly, if you've read the many articles about Kuyt/Comolli testimonies, then I'd be more inclined to believe you're impartial here. As you havent, not now or then, I don't think you're that interested in both sides of the story (which is your right, and no issue there).