The English model

[Gerry_A_Trick]

There's Eriksson and Capello too, who were pretty successful outside of the job.

There's lots of other countries that do a lot better with worse managers and worse players. Brazil made the semi's this year with a manager who's trophy haul in the past decade is topped by a international friendly tournament and the Uzbekistan league title.

I think the whole organisation and attitude is the problem. You put in Mourinho or whoever in charge of this squad and they'd still win fuck all.

 

[peterhague]

There's Eriksson and Capello too, who were pretty successful outside of the job.

There's lots of other countries that do a lot better with worse managers and worse players. Brazil made the semi's this year with a manager who's trophy haul in the past decade is topped by a international friendly tournament and the Uzbekistan league title.

I think the whole organisation and attitude is the problem. You put in Mourinho or whoever in charge of this squad and they'd still win fuck all.

IMO the real problem has to do with why we don't produce radical and intelligent managers. I think it's basically to do with the football culture and specifically its dominance by the working class. There's a stifling anti-intellectualism surrounding the sport.

It takes a really extraordinary figure like Rodgers to overcome it. I think the FA is a relatively minor factor.

 

[Pesam]

There's Eriksson and Capello too, who were pretty successful outside of the job.

There's lots of other countries that do a lot better with worse managers and worse players. Brazil made the semi's this year with a manager who's trophy haul in the past decade is topped by a international friendly tournament and the Uzbekistan league title.

I think the whole organisation and attitude is the problem. You put in Mourinho or whoever in charge of this squad and they'd still win fuck all.

Even if you have good players and a top manager it's still tough to win a major tournament because there are always 6 or 7 top teams who can theoretically also win. Sven did a decent job and with a bit more luck could have won something. Capello just seemed a wrong fit for some reason. Mourinho might actually be a good shout, in 2 years time he'll be nearing mid-50's and have proved everything he wanted to at club level. If Portugal don't come calling first then England should consider him. I think an English manager should manage England but with the current dearth of good English managers another foreigner might be a necessity.

 

[hmmmmm1]

IMO the real problem has to do with why we don't produce radical and intelligent managers. I think it's basically to do with the football culture and specifically its dominance by the working class. There's a stifling anti-intellectualism surrounding the sport.

It takes a really extraordinary figure like Rodgers to overcome it. I think the FA is a relatively minor factor.

This post deserves a separate thread..

 

[SummerOnions]

IMO the real problem has to do with why we don't produce radical and intelligent managers. I think it's basically to do with the football culture and specifically its dominance by the working class. There's a stifling anti-intellectualism surrounding the sport.

It takes a really extraordinary figure like Rodgers to overcome it. I think the FA is a relatively minor factor.

'dominance of the working class'

fucking hell, that there even is a class system is objectionable in the first place. Never mind the 'blazer' control of upper boardrooms and closed minds all over the fucking show. There is no such thing as a class system anyway really, unless you're one of them special people who likes putting things in categories

I agree with the radical bit but that's more to do with people being scared of change than anything else

 

[peterhague]

'dominance of the working class'

fucking hell, that there even is a class system is objectionable in the first place. Never mind the 'blazer' control of upper boardrooms and closed minds all over the fucking show. There is no such thing as a class system anyway really, unless you're one of them special people who likes putting things in categories

I agree with the radical bit but that's more to do with people being scared of change than anything else

I don't think you understand the point I'm making.

There's no doubt that certain classes are dominant in different British sports. There's no doubt that a class system operates. There's no doubt that those classes are distinguishable in terms of their outlooks and backgrounds.

It's not a point about the actual underlying qualities of the people concerned.

You've allowed a kind of emotional prejudice to cloud any reasoning you might be capable of.

 

[SummerOnions]

I don't think you understand the point I'm making.

There's no doubt that certain classes are dominant in different British sports. There's no doubt that a class system operates. There's no doubt that those classes are distinguishable in terms of their outlooks and backgrounds.

It's not a point about the actual underlying qualities of the people concerned.

You've allowed a kind of emotional prejudice to cloud any reasoning you might be capable of.

Maybe so but i'm not sure it qualifies here. Do you actually think a certain 'class' has control over football in this country? I don't see it

 

[peterhague]

I mean people of a working class background are the vast majority of British people working in football.

I don't see how anyone can doubt that.

 

[SummerOnions]

I mean people of a working class background are the vast majority of British people working in football.

I don't see how anyone can doubt that.

That's not really what you said though

"IMO the real problem has to do with why we don't produce radical and intelligent managers. I think it's basically to do with the football culture and specifically its dominance by the working class. There's a stifling anti-intellectualism surrounding the sport. "

Does the working class thing equate to anti-intellectualism or did you accidentally put three separate sentences in one paragraph?

 

[peterhague]

That's not really what you said though

"IMO the real problem has to do with why we don't produce radical and intelligent managers. I think it's basically to do with the football culture and specifically its dominance by the working class. There's a stifling anti-intellectualism surrounding the sport. "

Does the working class thing equate to anti-intellectualism or did you accidentally put three separate sentences in one paragraph?

Yes, of course.

 

[SummerOnions]

Yes, of course.

This is the whole 'not sure if serious' thing but generally anyone who thinks they belong to a certain class from birth conditions is about as anti-intellectual as you can get

 

[Silver Sean]

I'm genuinely surprised when any Liverpool fan even gives this FA cash-cow/corporate wankfest/Ing-ur-lund bollocks a second's thought.

 

[peterhague]

This is the whole 'not sure if serious' thing but generally anyone who thinks they belong to a certain class from birth conditions is about as anti-intellectual as you can get

What are you even talking about? What's birth got to do with it? People in British society tend to exist in one of three roughly divided classes. The precise originating factor isn't relevant to the point.

 

[SummerOnions]

What are you even talking about? What's birth got to do with it? People in British society tend to exist in one of three roughly divided classes. The precise originating factor isn't relevant to the point.

They don't though do they?

 

[peterhague]

They don't though do they?

Yes, I think so. It's not as clear as it was, but I think it's still very much present. Tbh I find it bizarre that anyone would argue otherwise, however grateful I am for it.

The people who watch Rugby League are different from the ones who watch Rugby Union. The people who drink beer from bottles are different from the ones who drink it from cans. And this sort of thing is visible in countless different ways. And one of the main ways is the social make-up of footballers.

 

[SummerOnions]

Yes, I think so. It's not as clear as it was, but I think it's still very much present. Tbh I find it bizarre that anyone would argue otherwise, however grateful I am for it.

The people who watch Rugby League are different from the ones who watch Rugby Union. The people who drink beer from bottles are different from the ones who drink it from cans. And this sort of thing is visible in countless different ways. And one of the main ways is the social make-up of footballers.

It's just a method of control perpetuated most by those who benefit from the idea of it, and nothing else

 

[Whirly]

It's just a method of control perpetuated most by those who benefit from the idea of it, and nothing else

I think the concept of class society no longer existing is a much more valid and real 'method of control perpetuated by those who benefit from it'.

 

[peterhague]

It's just a method of control perpetuated most by those who benefit from the idea of it, and nothing else

So you mean it has no basis in reality? There aren't working class communities? Middle class tastes? Give me a break.

 

[SummerOnions]

So you mean it has no basis in reality? There aren't working class communities? Middle class tastes? Give me a break.

not in a way that links to how clever you are or what you actually do, nah. That's fucking ridiculous

Yeah you can vageuly lump people lazily into categories like that if you wanna a Nazi about it but to suggest that someone from a set 'class' does this or likes that is wholly out of touch with reality

Do you think you're actually prince Philip or something?

 

[peterhague]

not in a way that links to how clever you are or what you actually do, nah. That's fucking ridiculous

Yeah you can vageuly lump people lazily into categories like that if you wanna a Nazi about it but to suggest that someone from a set 'class' does this or likes that is wholly out of touch with reality

Do you think you're actually prince Philip or something?

Christ you're thick.

 

[SummerOnions]

Christ you're thick.

So i was right then

Nice one

 

[Oliver Twist]

It's just a method of control perpetuated most by those who benefit from the idea of it, and nothing else

Jeepers.

 

[peterhague]

So i was right then

Nice one

No, I was just taking a break to tell you you're thick and decide whether you're too thick to even bother persevering with. Some, like Frogfish for example, I've concluded aren't.

 

[peterhague]

not in a way that links to how clever you are or what you actually do, nah. That's fucking ridiculous

Yeah you can vageuly lump people lazily into categories like that if you wanna a Nazi about it but to suggest that someone from a set 'class' does this or likes that is wholly out of touch with reality

Do you think you're actually prince Philip or something?

1. I didn't say one's class is linked to one's intelligence. You invented that. Either from stupidity or prejudice. Probably both.

2. Lazy categories? British classes? Those things established over decades or even centuries of study and analysis?

3. I never suggested the categories are hard or that the people within them are identical. I implied that they show a tendency towards certain characteristics. Which given that they can be categorised in the first place, isn't exactly very fucking surprising, is it?????

4. Learn to fucking read, or think, or maybe even both.

 

[Athens]

I think it's basically to do with the football culture and specifically its dominance by the working class. There's a stifling anti-intellectualism surrounding the sport.

To be fair to summer onions, you do seem to be hinting at something with this sentence.

 

[FreshRed]

I mean people of a working class background are the vast majority of British people working in football.

I don't see how anyone can doubt that.

You may be right. But, working class also defines most footballers in France, Spain, Italy, Brazil, Uruguay, etc. Football is a democratic sport that requires no expensive equipment to play. It will always draw a large contingent from the working classes and that is one of the great characteristics of the sport.

It is a little different in the USA where the sport has mostly grown in the middle and upper classes (and people "exposed to the world") or immigrant communities. It is starting to change and find its way into the cities and working class environments. Historically, basketball has dominated in this respect, but basketball is now limited to giants, so football/soccer becomes attractive to normal-sized "working class" people.

 

[Whirly]

To be fair to summer onions, you do seem to be hinting at something with this sentence.

To be fair though, he's right.

Being book smart in English football isn't fashionable, especially beyond the top few sides.

 

[Spaghetti Legs]

On the subject of class and stuff i can't help but think of this from Giles Clarke the chairman of the ECB, crickets equivalent of the FA...

Talking about Alistair Cook the England cricket captain...

"He is a very determined guy, a very good role model and he and his family are very much the sort of people we want the England captain and his family to be."





Just look at this slimey snobby tosser, urgh.

 

[peterhague]

To be fair to summer onions, you do seem to be hinting at something with this sentence.

Well I don't think there can be any doubt that lower class people are on average less intellectual than middle class people. Isn't that implicit? Aren't blue collar jobs *broadly* done by working class people? And white collar ones by middle class people? Isn't that a central feature of the delineation? And aren't white collar people generally better educated than blue collar people? And is there not a strong correlation between one's level of education and one's tendency towards intellectual thinking?

Isn't all this just achingly obvious to a person unconstrained by fear of politically correct censure?

 

[Brizzle]

On the subject of class and stuff i can't help but think of this from Giles Clarke the chairman of the ECB, crickets equivalent of the FA...

Talking about Alistair Cook the England cricket captain...

"He is a very determined guy, a very good role model and he and his family are very much the sort of people we want the England captain and his family to be."





Just look at this slimey snobby tosser, urgh.

Interesting quote as Cook is a guy you look at and think he must be a bit of a toff, but he sounds like an Essex geezer!

Cricket is a funny game though - great mix of personalities in the game which is something I find brilliant. Definitely makes for great sledging!