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The Devil and the Deep Blue..

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[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38336.msg1029650#msg1029650 date=1262961709]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=38336.msg1029636#msg1029636 date=1262960418]

Sorry , but I think there is a lot of bollocks being spouted at the moment.
What is happening is nothing new, he keeps making a pigs ear out of it, and getting out of gaol in the second half of the season, and that is not going to happen this year.
He does not learn from his mistakes, he is stubborn , does not know how to manage players or people, and does not know what his best team is or should be, four basics for a manager at any level. If it were one or two of those four it would be bad enough.
I knew that two years ago, Sheik knew that two years so did Oncey, who , for reasons known only to himself keeps giving him another chance, there are many people who know it.
I liked Rafa, I think he is a decent bloke with his heart in the right place, I am not having a go for the sake of it, I want him to succeed as much as anyone, but he is getting it wrong.
Rafa should get on his knees and pray to God that the Yanks are in place as the mutual loathing for them has diverted the attention away from him.
He will be gone at the end of the season , but it's all going to be a bit late by then.
regards

[/quote]
No need to apologies albeit I think you're mostly dead wrong.

Rafa is stubborn that's indisputable, but it's obvious he knows his best team however. He stopped the vivid rotation a long time ago and would play more or less the same XI week in week out if/when available.

And he does learn something that's for sure, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to get the team to perform so splendidly as it did last Season, taking us to a new level of performance almost, would he?

And with regards to your last point, well, according to Torres, Gerrard et all he REALLY does now how to manage players. Maybe there's someone who isn't satisfied with his methods, disagrees even, but at the end of the day the players are constantly backing him up in the medias. It's a bit of myth really all this talk about Rafa not beeing able to manage players and it seems mostly based on a few posters assumptions rather than facts.
And untill I've seen Torres, Carra or Gerrard or someone else important from the squad actually claiming that Rafa can't motivate them, manage them, whatever, I'd stand by him.
[/quote]

The only myth is when people can't see he is about as good a people person as Howard Fucking Hughes.
He is cold and calculating.
Everyone always talk your boss up, I even do it in confidential staff attitude surveys.
Particularly when they are cold calculating single visioned individuals like Rafa

regards
 
I don't really have any disagreement with much of what's been said, at least regards to how poor a people person he is. I just think there's alot to consider and we're not really in a great bargaining position, despite our history, etc. And he has done some good and I genuinely don't feel the way I did in Ged's latter days.

Maybe it is time to move on, but there's alot to look forward to in terms of foundations laid and players like Torres, Mascherano, Agger, Reina etc. These are all good, young TOP players. At the moment at least it's a case of better the devil you know, at least until we're in a better position financially and in terms of stability. The only stability we seem to have is at club level, if we start changing that while everything else is up in the air then it could be catastrophic.

It's not bollocks being spouted it's a genuine amount of reason and objectivity, taking everything into consideration. Did I really sound like I was blindly following him? I made my views on his negative aspects as clear as day.

Yeah he's fucked up, yeah we should be challenging this season, and yeah he's incredibly frustrating at times, but we're not really in the best position. Beggars, choosers, etc.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=38336.msg1029778#msg1029778 date=1262971545]
I don't really have any disagreement with much of what's been said, at least regards to how poor a people person he is. I just think there's alot to consider and we're not really in a great bargaining position, despite our history, etc. And he has done some good and I genuinely don't feel the way I did in Ged's latter days.

Maybe it is time to move on, but there's alot to look forward to in terms of foundations laid and players like Torres, Mascherano, Agger, Reina etc. These are all good, young TOP players. At the moment at least it's a case of better the devil you know, at least until we're in a better position financially and in terms of stability. The only stability we seem to have is at club level, if we start changing that while everything else is up in the air then it could be catastrophic.

It's not bollocks being spouted it's a genuine amount of reason and objectivity, taking everything into consideration. Did I really sound like I was blindly following him? I made my views on his negative aspects as clear as day.

Yeah he's fucked up, yeah we should be challenging this season, and yeah he's incredibly frustrating at times, but we're not really in the best position. Beggars, choosers, etc.
[/quote]

The bollocks bit was not directed at you Mark :-*

regards
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=38336.msg1029805#msg1029805 date=1262972790]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=38336.msg1029778#msg1029778 date=1262971545]
I don't really have any disagreement with much of what's been said, at least regards to how poor a people person he is. I just think there's alot to consider and we're not really in a great bargaining position, despite our history, etc. And he has done some good and I genuinely don't feel the way I did in Ged's latter days.

Maybe it is time to move on, but there's alot to look forward to in terms of foundations laid and players like Torres, Mascherano, Agger, Reina etc. These are all good, young TOP players. At the moment at least it's a case of better the devil you know, at least until we're in a better position financially and in terms of stability. The only stability we seem to have is at club level, if we start changing that while everything else is up in the air then it could be catastrophic.

It's not bollocks being spouted it's a genuine amount of reason and objectivity, taking everything into consideration. Did I really sound like I was blindly following him? I made my views on his negative aspects as clear as day.

Yeah he's fucked up, yeah we should be challenging this season, and yeah he's incredibly frustrating at times, but we're not really in the best position. Beggars, choosers, etc.
[/quote]

The bollocks bit was not directed at you Mark :-*

regards
[/quote]

lol.. No worries chief 😉 I just didn't want to come across as a head in the sand RCDNW'er.
 
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=38336.msg1029723#msg1029723 date=1262968472]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=38336.msg1029722#msg1029722 date=1262968342]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38336.msg1029718#msg1029718 date=1262968087]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=38336.msg1029712#msg1029712 date=1262967651]
I just hate being positive. I've tried to be unreasonable and I still want to.

Winning the European Cup, the FA Cup, getting a record points haul in the Premiership, signing Torres, Mascherano etc doesn't seem to be miraculously lucky at least in probability terms.

It seems premature to dismiss him during this half campaign without a replacement. Rafa will never win us the League with all those players injured, and the beach balls and the dimishing transfer kitty etc etc. It's a failing in him not to be able to consistently overachieve, I know.

It hurts me to say, but he should be able to shop, rather than given the chop but then I know thats naive and optimistic *sigh*

Still there's always the second half of the season.
[/quote]

That could easily be Rafa's catchphrase.
[/quote]

It's a pothibility, or it could be 'show me the money'.
[/quote]
Are you talking about the £60M splashed in Keane, Johnson, Dossena and Aquilani?
[/quote]
No
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=38336.msg1029696#msg1029696 date=1262966344]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=38336.msg1029636#msg1029636 date=1262960418]

Sorry , but I think there is a lot of bollocks being spouted at the moment.
What is happening is nothing new, he keeps making a pigs ear out of it, and getting out of gaol in the second half of the season, and that is not going to happen this year.
He does not learn from his mistakes, he is stubborn , does not know how to manage players or people, and does not know what his best team is or should be, four basics for a manager at any level. If it were one or two of those four it would be bad enough.
I knew that two years ago, Sheik knew that two years so did Oncey, who , for reasons known only to himself keeps giving him another chance, there are many people who know it.
I liked Rafa, I think he is a decent bloke with his heart in the right place, I am not having a go for the sake of it, I want him to succeed as much as anyone, but he is getting it wrong.
Rafa should get on his knees and pray to God that the Yanks are in place as the mutual loathing for them has diverted the attention away from him.
He will be gone at the end of the season , but it's all going to be a bit late by then.
regards

[/quote]I just hate being negative. I've known but not wanted to. I still don't want to.
But yeah he's a lucky chancer and can fuck off. The disaster that is this campaign leaves no room for ambiguity. Rafa will never win us the league and he needs to be given the chop.
[/quote]

Your not being negative you are being realistic.

Rafa needs to go simply because he will never win us the league and if that is the case he should not be manager.

Great post by Mark, Vlad and Del.

Great thread overall.

Bottom line is that when things have gone well for rafa he has won things like the Fa cup and CL, when things have gone wrong we get this season. The middle ground will never be good enough.

Time for a big chance no matter how the second half of the season goes.

I expect us to win the Fa cup.
 
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=38336.msg1030187#msg1030187 date=1263003939]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=38336.msg1029696#msg1029696 date=1262966344]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=38336.msg1029636#msg1029636 date=1262960418]

Sorry , but I think there is a lot of bollocks being spouted at the moment.
What is happening is nothing new, he keeps making a pigs ear out of it, and getting out of gaol in the second half of the season, and that is not going to happen this year.
He does not learn from his mistakes, he is stubborn , does not know how to manage players or people, and does not know what his best team is or should be, four basics for a manager at any level. If it were one or two of those four it would be bad enough.
I knew that two years ago, Sheik knew that two years so did Oncey, who , for reasons known only to himself keeps giving him another chance, there are many people who know it.
I liked Rafa, I think he is a decent bloke with his heart in the right place, I am not having a go for the sake of it, I want him to succeed as much as anyone, but he is getting it wrong.
Rafa should get on his knees and pray to God that the Yanks are in place as the mutual loathing for them has diverted the attention away from him.
He will be gone at the end of the season , but it's all going to be a bit late by then.
regards

[/quote]I just hate being negative. I've known but not wanted to. I still don't want to.
But yeah he's a lucky chancer and can fuck off. The disaster that is this campaign leaves no room for ambiguity. Rafa will never win us the league and he needs to be given the chop.
[/quote]

Your not being negative you are being realistic.

Rafa needs to go simply because he will never win us the league and if that is the case he should not be manager.

Great post by Mark, Vlad and Del.

Great thread overall.

Bottom line is that when things have gone well for rafa he has won things like the Fa cup and CL, when things have gone wrong we get this season. The middle ground will never be good enough.

Time for a big chance no matter how the second half of the season goes.

I expect us to win the Fa cup.

[/quote]

We spent large parts of last season without Gerrard and Torres playing together.

Implying that all Benitez's achievements are down to luck, or that he can't handle difficult situations isn't correct at all.
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=38336.msg1029732#msg1029732 date=1262969307]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38336.msg1029650#msg1029650 date=1262961709]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=38336.msg1029636#msg1029636 date=1262960418]

Sorry , but I think there is a lot of bollocks being spouted at the moment.
What is happening is nothing new, he keeps making a pigs ear out of it, and getting out of gaol in the second half of the season, and that is not going to happen this year.
He does not learn from his mistakes, he is stubborn , does not know how to manage players or people, and does not know what his best team is or should be, four basics for a manager at any level. If it were one or two of those four it would be bad enough.
I knew that two years ago, Sheik knew that two years so did Oncey, who , for reasons known only to himself keeps giving him another chance, there are many people who know it.
I liked Rafa, I think he is a decent bloke with his heart in the right place, I am not having a go for the sake of it, I want him to succeed as much as anyone, but he is getting it wrong.
Rafa should get on his knees and pray to God that the Yanks are in place as the mutual loathing for them has diverted the attention away from him.
He will be gone at the end of the season , but it's all going to be a bit late by then.
regards

[/quote]
No need to apologies albeit I think you're mostly dead wrong.

Rafa is stubborn that's indisputable, but it's obvious he knows his best team however. He stopped the vivid rotation a long time ago and would play more or less the same XI week in week out if/when available.

And he does learn something that's for sure, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to get the team to perform so splendidly as it did last Season, taking us to a new level of performance almost, would he?

And with regards to your last point, well, according to Torres, Gerrard et all he REALLY does now how to manage players. Maybe there's someone who isn't satisfied with his methods, disagrees even, but at the end of the day the players are constantly backing him up in the medias. It's a bit of myth really all this talk about Rafa not beeing able to manage players and it seems mostly based on a few posters assumptions rather than facts.
And untill I've seen Torres, Carra or Gerrard or someone else important from the squad actually claiming that Rafa can't motivate them, manage them, whatever, I'd stand by him.
[/quote]

The only myth is when people can't see he is about as good a people person as Howard Fucking Hughes.
He is cold and calculating.
Everyone always talk your boss up, I even do it in confidential staff attitude surveys.
Particularly when they are cold calculating single visioned individuals like Rafa

regards


[/quote]
I know it was a Tomkins article but the way he described the environment and general feel around Melwood between players, staff and managers recently doesn't seem to be in great coalition with your ways of describing the gaffer. I know he's wearing rose-tinted glases but how many on here are actually in a position to rubbish what he learned and described for us?

One thing is to not bond that much with your players (your staff if you like in every other company) another thing is to be a coldhearted cynical, something which I'm positive Rafa is not. By the sound of Tomkins article it actually almost seemed like he 'gave a shite' about every single player at the club all the way down to the youngsters.

Their may be som truth in what you say obviously, but there could just as well be an equal ammount of 'bollocks' in it if you like. No offense, evidently.

PS Can't we bury the stupid RCDNW tag the 'Rafa-out-camp' seems to put on every single poster who dares not to write the gaffer of just yet? I'm not even sure there actually is such a poster on here, one who's believing Rafa isn't making any errors or stupid decisions now and then. He's a living human beeing for christ sake and as such, errors and wrong decisions are default.
 
I don't think any of us are close enough to know exactly what Rafa's like with the players (in regards to Vlads "people person" comment anyway). In all seriousness i wouldn't read too much into what current LFC players say on the issue, or for that matter what Tomkins puts forward.

One thing i do think is possibly quite telling though is that out of the 100's of players that Rafa has sold on from LFC, how come hardly any of them have chosen to have a pop?
 
In addition to that, Khl, It's also worth asking how many players have rubbished the gaffa since they left? And given we've had the likes of Pennant and Bellamy on the books, EXACTLY the sort of guys you'd expect to spill the beans, I think that speaks volumes.

I do think he has a standoff-ish approach, and I do think his man management on occasion has been more than questionable, but for me, the fact practically no one has walked away from the club and slated the guy, says a lot.
 
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38336.msg1030395#msg1030395 date=1263049816]
I don't think any of us are close enough to know exactly what Rafa's like with the players (in regards to Vlads "people person" comment). In all seriousness i wouldn't read too much into what current LFC players say on the issue, or for that matter what Tomkins puts forward.

One thing i do think is quite telling is that out of the 100's of players that Rafa has sold on from LFC, how come not many of them have chosen to have a pop?
[/quote]

Ha.. What he said 😉
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=38336.msg1030397#msg1030397 date=1263050033]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38336.msg1030395#msg1030395 date=1263049816]
I don't think any of us are close enough to know exactly what Rafa's like with the players (in regards to Vlads "people person" comment). In all seriousness i wouldn't read too much into what current LFC players say on the issue, or for that matter what Tomkins puts forward.

One thing i do think is quite telling is that out of the 100's of players that Rafa has sold on from LFC, how come not many of them have chosen to have a pop?
[/quote]

Ha.. What he said 😉
[/quote]

Well said. Both of you. That surely tells us somthing.

Everton one up at Arsenal btw.
 
If a manager put his arm around the shoulder and gets results, that's fine.

If a manager is a taskmaster and gets results, that's fine.

Results are they key.
 
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