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The Devil and the Deep Blue..

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mark1975

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What a season this has shaped into, even though I still have a smidgen of Oncy's 'Dumbledore's Army hope' left in me, I can't help (like everyone else) but feel bitterly disappointed with how the season has gone, the players and more importantly, Rafa.

People have fairly and unfairly attacked his transfer policy. I think he's signed some really good players, some injury prone ones that we never seem to get a consistent run of games from and then some dross. Players like Dossena, Gonzalez and Leto have led me to question whether he watches some of these lads. While the likes of Keane, Aquilani (harsh?), Babel and Johnson have begged questions in terms of position about whether or not Rafa really knew what he was getting into. He seems to have bought some players with clear talent but no real inkling of how to incorporate them into the team, or the Premiership, or both.

One real worry that's plagued Rafa's tenure, is the genuine concern that he really does have blind spots and serious bouts of naivety. For someone so tactically astute at times (he really is), how could you give Kaka the freedom of the pitch for 45 minutes? For someone so dead set on having the right mentality, and possessing the determination and hard work ethic to succeed. Why the fuck did he buy Babel?

Posters and other fans alike have likened this season to Houllier's final season. I don't really see it like that. I think Houllier's side was lacking in real quality and could barely string a pass together by that stage, I still think this side has alot of talent and the ability to succeed (with one or two additions), we've just had luck (injuries, beach balls, suspensions, Internationals) go against us. Though it's fair to say Rafa's transfer policy, now that money is thin on the ground, has come back to bite him on the arse. He's been wasteful, and the squad shows that now. We can call the owners for fucking us around, lay blame with the global recession, but this is the guy who maintained that money wasn't a real issue when he came here. That we would 'adapt' and have to be clever. Once a bit more money became available it seemed he didn't have the ability to still budget and be sensible within that.

I mentioned this a couple of months back. My lad still has a poster on his wall from the 2006/2007 season. I think only 6 of the players on that poster (of about 20) remain at the club, the rest have moved on, and two of them are Carra and Gerrard! I think the other four are Reina, Aurelio, Agger and Kuyt. A combined value of around £19m. When you consider how much we've spent during that time and how many other players have come and gone, that's a big turn around. It's hampered continuity and familiarity and it's left us with fuck all on the fringes.

That said.. I'm not really feeling the need to move on just yet. Maybe it's the uncertainty over ownership, finances, the stadium and everything else. On the flip side of that there's a community of sorts and solidarity within Anfield that seems to be holding it together and building for the future in the face of adversity. The appointment of Dalglish was a shrewd and important one. The dismissal of Parry and appointment of Purslow, the likes of Sammy Lee in the dugout and the slowly emerging youth players like Pacheco. In that sense it'd be foolish to throw all that away when our building work is at least starting to show some foundations.

Then there are the financial implications of breaking ties with Rafa. We'll have to pay up his contract, staff and maybe even players will leave with him, we'll have the mammoth task of attracting a top brass manager (who seem few and far between in availability) and have to lure them with financial uncertainty. Not to mention that this alone could throw the club into chaos in terms of (once again) building again and starting yet another new era of uncertainty and built on little more than hope.

I don't really feel the same sense of inevitability that I felt in the latter days of Houllier. Maybe it's just me. I just don't see us in that bad a state. I think we've had a bad season. I think Rafa is partly to blame, but last season was brilliant in terms of progress. So who are we to let our heads drop in the midst of a storm and show fear in the face of the dark?

Like I said, maybe I'm alone, but I've still got a tremendous amount of faith in the manager and I actually want him to succeed. I know he can be an idiot, I know he's made his fair share of rueful decisions on the pitch and in the transfer market. But he still has the ability to make me smile in a football sense, I know it's there with a couple of inspired decisions and that this season can be dragged from the doldrums yet.

It's only half time.

YNWA.
 
It can only be dragged into "vague respectability and minimum acceptability", because fourth place in the Premiership is the best we can do, and we are already out of Europe. A domestic cup would be nice.

He's fucked up this season totally, and will be very fortunate to still be in the job next season.

We have too many shit players who I genuinely hate for me to be in any way happy with LFC at the moment.
 
Great post mate.

I agree with nearly all of it, although I have less faith in the guy as yourself. We as fans deserve better than what we're getting - but I accept that making a change is next to impossible at the moment.

Giving him such a long contract is one of my major gripes. Incompetence is running through the veins of the club.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38336.msg1029477#msg1029477 date=1262949060]
It can only be dragged into "vague respectability and minimum acceptability", because fourth place in the Premiership is the best we can do, and we are already out of Europe. A domestic cup would be nice.

He's fucked up this season totally, and will be very fortunate to still be in the job next season.

We have too many shit players who I genuinely hate for me to be in any way happy with LFC at the moment.
[/quote]

Heh, I never said I was happy. Hopeful maybe, or blindly optimistic. Anyway... maybe it's the uncertainty surrounding everything, but I still think the best time to make decisions will be the end of the season and there's still a long way to go.
 
Excellent post mark.

I really couldn't agree more I don't feel its either a wise move nor a deserved one to get rid of him but then to a greater degree I feel that a large proportion of the blame lies elsewhere.
 
As per usual that is an excellent post Mark and the title of the piece is where I am at right now.

I don't believe that we should be panicked into making a rash decision on the management and direction of our club, based solely on the last four months disappointing form on the pitch.
On the other hand as the club slides towards crisis, it could be equally damning to our clubs future to not act out of indecision.

Which is exactly where I am at right now. My belief that Rafa would be the one to deliver No19 has dissipated and it will take one heck of a second half to restore it.

Lets just wait another bit to see how the rest of the season pans out to see if that belief can be restored in us all.
 
[quote author=the count link=topic=38336.msg1029483#msg1029483 date=1262949337]
As per usual that is an excellent post Mark and the title of the piece is where I am at right now.

I don't believe that we should be panicked into making a rash decision on the management and direction of our club, based solely on the last four months disappointing form on the pitch.
On the other hand as the club slides towards crisis, it could be equally damning to our clubs future to not act out of indecision.

Which is exactly where I am at right now. My belief that Rafa would be the one to deliver No19 has dissipated and it will take one heck of a second half to restore it.

Lets just wait another bit to see how the rest of the season pans out to see if that belief can be restored in us all.

[/quote]

I don't see how a wonderful second half to the season can restore faith that he will us the title in any way.

You win the title by playing consistently well across a whole season, and grinding out wins instead of draws.

Benitez has been utterly incapable of either.
 
I think the only way Rafa can turn things around now is if he has the transfer window of his life in the summer, which is going to be difficult given that it's World Cup year and then to see it all come together with guys like Aquilani justifying their price tag.

If it's another unremarkable summer, odds are we'll struggle again.
 
On any given season before this one, settling for a place in the champions league, a good run in the cups, would be considered a success.

However when we finished second last season, arguably strengthed our squad when all around us weakend. (Dress it up how you want, but replacing Arbeloa with Johnson, and a want away Alonso with Aquilani was, as most people agree, good business). We expected to kick on and at least 'challenge' for the title.

What irks me most about Benitez is two things.

1) His insistance on playing 2 holding midfielders with NO creativity at home against teams who in all fairness should be cannon fodder.

2) No plan B when obviously teams are beating down our door or content on sitting on a nil-nil.

It does look now that some players truely do not want to be at the club, step forward Ryan Babel, Andriy Voronin. I remember when Rafa took over, he broke up the 'cliques'. However the vultures are forming once more. Rafa is not blamless in all this, after selling Keane & being promised £20m per annum, perhaps he was right to feel agrieved that some targets slipped through the net because of our chuckle brothers owners.

Top brass managers available are:
Frank Rijkaard currently at Galatasary,
Jose Mourinho has made some rumblings about returning to the Premiership.
And Guus Hiddink, who's Russia failed to qualify for the WC.

However, if our owners aren't willing to give Rafa cash to buy, who's to say they'll pay the £10m or so to sack him?

In my opinion, Rafa has 1 target and 1 target only, finish fourth, or ship out!!
 
[quote author=Mr_V link=topic=38336.msg1029502#msg1029502 date=1262950408]
On any given season before this one, settling for a place in the champions league, a good run in the cups, would be considered a success.

However when we finished second last season, arguably strengthed our squad when all around us weakend. (Dress it up how you want, but replacing Arbeloa with Johnson, and a want away Alonso with Aquilani was, as most people agree, good business). We expected to kick on and at least 'challenge' for the title.


In my opinion, Rafa has 1 target and 1 target only, finish fourth, or ship out!!
[/quote]

I dont agree... we weakened, he gambled and he lost. Again. Still i don't want him gone just yet...
 
Damn you Mark that's an excellent post.

Agree with most of it even.

[size=34pt]YNWA[/size]
 
I'm getting a bit tired of watching talented players produce crap football. By no means do I think we have the best squad in the league, but looking at how many internationals we have, I am sure we should be beating the likes of Reading quite handily.

As Brendan said above it's all about consistency, and whilst it's great beating the likes of United and Villa, we're just as likely to lose to the likes of Sunderland and Pompey (as we have done). This type of up and down form will never win us the league and I think a lot of it stems from Rafa's footballing philosophy - or rather, lack of one. When our backs are not up against wall, he reverts to caution first and we try to out maneuvre the lower-lites as opposed to outplay them. Have we ever beaten a Bruce or McCleish managed side yet under Rafa?

Our lack of 'style of play' is very concerning to me. Pass, Hoof, Chase, Tackle, Hoof again.. and if all else fails, hope Nando or Stevie do something special. It's all too familiar. Do we not practise any attacking plays in training? Why can't Dirk Kuyt control a ball still? Why the lack of technique, pace and skill in our side?
I think the last 3months of last season being a rare exception but I'm at a loss to as to why we play such poor conservative football. As someone mentioned on another thread, we really do play poorer than the sum of our parts.

My hope is that with a better coach/management team, we'd be at least playing to our level of talent, which may not be title-winning, but it will be title-challenging every year.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38336.msg1029489#msg1029489 date=1262949545]
[quote author=the count link=topic=38336.msg1029483#msg1029483 date=1262949337]
As per usual that is an excellent post Mark and the title of the piece is where I am at right now.

I don't believe that we should be panicked into making a rash decision on the management and direction of our club, based solely on the last four months disappointing form on the pitch.
On the other hand as the club slides towards crisis, it could be equally damning to our clubs future to not act out of indecision.

Which is exactly where I am at right now. My belief that Rafa would be the one to deliver No19 has dissipated and it will take one heck of a second half to restore it.

Lets just wait another bit to see how the rest of the season pans out to see if that belief can be restored in us all.

[/quote]

I don't see how a wonderful second half to the season can restore faith that he will us the title in any way.

You win the title by playing consistently well across a whole season, and grinding out wins instead of draws.

Benitez has been utterly incapable of either.
[/quote]

Couldn't agree more. Benitez has somewhat of a habit of clawing back respectability in the second half of the season in his time here, usually after an average to poor start - last season being the exception. In much the same way as a boxer looks to impress the judges in the latter part of a round, it seems recent events remain fresh in the memory and fans begin to believe that if we can begin the season in a similar vein to the way we ended it, we could be in with a shout. Fans forget how bad we were at the beginning, only to be reminded again the following season.

There is simply no consistency in this Benitez side. Performances have varied from the sublime to the ridiculous, and it doesn't look much like changing. In fairness, the signs were there with Valencia when they went from winning La Liga by seven points in his first year and then coming 5th some eighteen points adrift the following year.

We don't have a consistent game plan. Benitez began the season with talk of how we needed to be more adventurous in our style of play, and turn last year's draws into wins. Then we started shipping goals, and he simply reverted to form. Only when we have a bit of confidence do we begin to see our players express themselves. When the chips are down, we play cautious, snail-paced, predictable, turgid football. When the likes of Utd are in a poor run of form, they don't stop trying to play. Sure, they've put in some pretty horrible performances this season but they showed a bit of faith in their ability to score goals and kept plugging away. They know that quality will shine through in the end. Either Benitez doesn't have enough confidence in the quality of his players (which would be his fault), or his need to view football as a science is shackling our players from doing what comes naturally to them (also his fault). If we had any confidence in our team we would set them up to win and say to other teams 'This is how we play, try and beat us'. The way I see it, complex game plans should only really be a factor in the big games. We should have enough quality to roll over the vast majority of teams in this league (and indeed Europe) by telling them to go out there and express themselves. (Of course, I'm over-simplifying a little here, but I think you get the point.)

Prior to last season, I think I was pretty firmly in the 'anti-Benitez' camp. That's not to say I didn't appreciate what he'd done, I just didn't see enough signs that he was learning from his mistakes (in the league) to suggest that he was the man to bring us number 19. After last season though, I thought he showed some real signs of progress and did enough to earn himself another shot at it. Once again though, he has faltered under pressure, and categorically failed to arrest an increasingly dire situation. Now, I'm firmly back where I was at the end of the 2006-7 season. And there is no Champions League final to save his bacon this time.
 
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38336.msg1029561#msg1029561 date=1262955045]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38336.msg1029489#msg1029489 date=1262949545]
[quote author=the count link=topic=38336.msg1029483#msg1029483 date=1262949337]
As per usual that is an excellent post Mark and the title of the piece is where I am at right now.

I don't believe that we should be panicked into making a rash decision on the management and direction of our club, based solely on the last four months disappointing form on the pitch.
On the other hand as the club slides towards crisis, it could be equally damning to our clubs future to not act out of indecision.

Which is exactly where I am at right now. My belief that Rafa would be the one to deliver No19 has dissipated and it will take one heck of a second half to restore it.

Lets just wait another bit to see how the rest of the season pans out to see if that belief can be restored in us all.

[/quote]

I don't see how a wonderful second half to the season can restore faith that he will us the title in any way.

You win the title by playing consistently well across a whole season, and grinding out wins instead of draws.

Benitez has been utterly incapable of either.
[/quote]

Couldn't agree more. Benitez has somewhat of a habit of clawing back respectability in the second half of the season in his time here, usually after an average to poor start - last season being the exception. In much the same way as a boxer looks to impress the judges in the latter part of a round, it seems recent events remain fresh in the memory and fans begin to believe that if we can begin the season in a similar vein to the way we ended it, we could be in with a shout. Fans forget how bad we were at the beginning, only to be reminded again the following season.

There is simply no consistency in this Benitez side. Performances have varied from the sublime to the ridiculous, and it doesn't look much like changing. In fairness, the signs were there with Valencia when they went from winning La Liga by seven points in his first year and then coming 5th some eighteen points adrift the following year.

We don't have a consistent game plan. Benitez began the season with talk of how we needed to be more adventurous in our style of play, and turn last year's draws into wins. Then we started shipping goals, and he simply reverted to form. Only when we have a bit of confidence do we begin to see our players express themselves. When the chips are down, we play cautious, snail-paced, predictable, turgid football. When the likes of Utd are in a poor run of form, they don't stop trying to play. Sure, they've put in some pretty horrible performances this season but they showed a bit of faith in their ability to score goals and kept plugging away. They know that quality will shine through in the end. Either Benitez doesn't have enough confidence in the quality of his players (which would be his fault), or his need to view football as a science is shackling our players from doing what comes naturally to them (also his fault). If we had any confidence in our team we would set them up to win and say to other teams 'This is how we play, try and beat us'. The way I see it, complex game plans should only really be a factor in the big games. We should have enough quality to roll over the vast majority of teams in this league (and indeed Europe) by telling them to go out there and express themselves. (Of course, I'm over-simplifying a little here, but I think you get the point.)

Prior to last season, I think I was pretty firmly in the 'anti-Benitez' camp. That's not to say I didn't appreciate what he'd done, I just didn't see enough signs that he was learning from his mistakes (in the league) to suggest that he was the man to bring us number 19. After last season though, I thought he showed some real signs of progress and did enough to earn himself another shot at it. Once again though, he has faltered under pressure, and categorically failed to arrest an increasingly dire situation. Now, I'm firmly back where I was at the end of the 2006-7 season. And there is no Champions League final to save his bacon this time.
[/quote]

Great post. Exactly my perspective.
 
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38336.msg1029561#msg1029561 date=1262955045]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38336.msg1029489#msg1029489 date=1262949545]
[quote author=the count link=topic=38336.msg1029483#msg1029483 date=1262949337]
As per usual that is an excellent post Mark and the title of the piece is where I am at right now.

I don't believe that we should be panicked into making a rash decision on the management and direction of our club, based solely on the last four months disappointing form on the pitch.
On the other hand as the club slides towards crisis, it could be equally damning to our clubs future to not act out of indecision.

Which is exactly where I am at right now. My belief that Rafa would be the one to deliver No19 has dissipated and it will take one heck of a second half to restore it.

Lets just wait another bit to see how the rest of the season pans out to see if that belief can be restored in us all.

[/quote]

I don't see how a wonderful second half to the season can restore faith that he will us the title in any way.

You win the title by playing consistently well across a whole season, and grinding out wins instead of draws.

Benitez has been utterly incapable of either.
[/quote]

Couldn't agree more. Benitez has somewhat of a habit of clawing back respectability in the second half of the season in his time here, usually after an average to poor start - last season being the exception. In much the same way as a boxer looks to impress the judges in the latter part of a round, it seems recent events remain fresh in the memory and fans begin to believe that if we can begin the season in a similar vein to the way we ended it, we could be in with a shout. Fans forget how bad we were at the beginning, only to be reminded again the following season.

There is simply no consistency in this Benitez side. Performances have varied from the sublime to the ridiculous, and it doesn't look much like changing. In fairness, the signs were there with Valencia when they went from winning La Liga by seven points in his first year and then coming 5th some eighteen points adrift the following year.

We don't have a consistent game plan. Benitez began the season with talk of how we needed to be more adventurous in our style of play, and turn last year's draws into wins. Then we started shipping goals, and he simply reverted to form. Only when we have a bit of confidence do we begin to see our players express themselves. When the chips are down, we play cautious, snail-paced, predictable, turgid football. When the likes of Utd are in a poor run of form, they don't stop trying to play. Sure, they've put in some pretty horrible performances this season but they showed a bit of faith in their ability to score goals and kept plugging away. They know that quality will shine through in the end. Either Benitez doesn't have enough confidence in the quality of his players (which would be his fault), or his need to view football as a science is shackling our players from doing what comes naturally to them (also his fault). If we had any confidence in our team we would set them up to win and say to other teams 'This is how we play, try and beat us'. The way I see it, complex game plans should only really be a factor in the big games. We should have enough quality to roll over the vast majority of teams in this league (and indeed Europe) by telling them to go out there and express themselves. (Of course, I'm over-simplifying a little here, but I think you get the point.)

Prior to last season, I think I was pretty firmly in the 'anti-Benitez' camp. That's not to say I didn't appreciate what he'd done, I just didn't see enough signs that he was learning from his mistakes (in the league) to suggest that he was the man to bring us number 19. After last season though, I thought he showed some real signs of progress and did enough to earn himself another shot at it. Once again though, he has faltered under pressure, and categorically failed to arrest an increasingly dire situation. Now, I'm firmly back where I was at the end of the 2006-7 season. And there is no Champions League final to save his bacon this time.
[/quote]

Good post.

I don't agree with all of it though. Especially the part where you assume that Rafa, because we made great progress in the second half of last Season and hasn't immediately turned it into silverware and great play, has now finally buckled under the pressure. (Or at least shown that he's never going to make it).

It's obvious that things haven't turned out well so far this Season but it's much more than just Rafa's failings in the manager seat.

No manager in the world would've cruised through this Season with the ammount of key-players constantly beeing sidelined beacuse of injury. No one. That's only part of the reason why we've looked mostly dire of course and as you've said yourself the new attacking-minded approach hasn't helped us a great deal either. As soon as things started to go downhill the new style of play probably confused players and made it even worse. Culminating away against Portsmouth I reckon.

For me it's all about how we fare untill Summer though. We've won two on the trot now and can we overcome Spurs as well, we've suddenly somehow played ourselves back in the race (at least for 4th) without even hitting 5th gear yet.

At the end of the day it's all about continuity over the course of a Season (not just untill Christmas) and hoepfully we can once again muster a brave and splendid second half of the Season, and then with a bit of good luck, one or two starplayers brought in and a few lessons learned, I see no reason whatsoever why Rafa can't be the man to bring home no. 19.

The next 6 months is going to be vital. Not only for the manager of course but for the club as a whole as well.

But I still believe.
 
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38336.msg1029608#msg1029608 date=1262958239]
No manager in the world would've cruised through this Season with the ammount of key-players constantly beeing sidelined beacuse of injury. No one.
[/quote]

I'd like to think that with the resources available, any manager worth his salt wouldn't be so heavily dependent on two players in the first place.

And it's not just when things go wrong we've faltered under pressure. I thought Rafa handled us being top last season pretty poorly too. Drawing unnecessary attention to himself in the press with misguided digs at Ferguson when he should have been keeping quiet and concentrating on keeping the run going. It was an unfamiliar position for the players already without making it worse. Rafa's decision to complicate things by playing mind games with the most successful manager in British football was completely unnecessary and served only as a distraction. After all, it wasn't mind games that got us into that position, it was good football. Who knows, maybe we'd have collapsed anyway but it was Rafa who came out of that particular exchange with egg on his face, not Ferguson.

Whichever way you look at it, United didn't win the league last season - we lost it.
 
Sorry , but I think there is a lot of bollocks being spouted at the moment.
What is happening is nothing new, he keeps making a pigs ear out of it, and getting out of gaol in the second half of the season, and that is not going to happen this year.
He does not learn from his mistakes, he is stubborn , does not know how to manage players or people, and does not know what his best team is or should be, four basics for a manager at any level. If it were one or two of those four it would be bad enough.
I knew that two years ago, Sheik knew that two years so did Oncey, who , for reasons known only to himself keeps giving him another chance, there are many people who know it.
I liked Rafa, I think he is a decent bloke with his heart in the right place, I am not having a go for the sake of it, I want him to succeed as much as anyone, but he is getting it wrong.
Rafa should get on his knees and pray to God that the Yanks are in place as the mutual loathing for them has diverted the attention away from him.
He will be gone at the end of the season , but it's all going to be a bit late by then.
regards
 
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38336.msg1029622#msg1029622 date=1262959372]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38336.msg1029608#msg1029608 date=1262958239]
No manager in the world would've cruised through this Season with the ammount of key-players constantly beeing sidelined beacuse of injury. No one.
[/quote]

I'd like to think that with the resources available, any manager worth his salt wouldn't be so heavily dependent on two players in the first place.

And it's not just when things go wrong we've faltered under pressure. I thought Rafa handled us being top last season pretty poorly too. Drawing unnecessary attention to himself in the press with misguided digs at Ferguson when he should have been keeping quiet and concentrating on keeping the run going. It was an unfamiliar position for the players already without making it worse. Rafa's decision to complicate things by playing mind games with the most successful manager in British football was completely unnecessary and served only as a distraction. After all, it wasn't mind games that got us into that position, it was good football. Who knows, maybe we'd have collapsed anyway but it was Rafa who came out of that particular exchange with egg on his face, not Ferguson.

Whichever way you look at it, United didn't win the league last season - we lost it.

[/quote]
Whilst I agree we are to heavily dependent on Torres and Gerrard to deliver the goods it's a fact that we've been without far more players than those two alone this Season.

Add Riera, Aquilani, Agger, Johnson, Aurelio, Benayoun, Babel, Kelly and to some extent even Masher to that list and you're suddenly looking at a whole team of players who's been struggling. Had it been Gerrard and Torres alone I'm sure we'd be sitting further up the table by now.

Anyways we came very close last year and whether it was down to Rafa's mindgames or a case of blurry legs we didn't go all the way I can't say but the fact of the matter is, we played some of the most enthralling and awe-inspiring football any Liverpool-team has ever done over the past 20 years or so. That wasn't a fluke. It wasn't only about one or two games it went on for months. We played teams of the park. Even the biggest ones around.

And that's why I'm holding my final judgment until the end of the Season because if we are going to rediscover that form soon I'm sure we are in for some pleasant surprises, even in the League. I could easily see us close the gap on United for one.
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=38336.msg1029636#msg1029636 date=1262960418]

Sorry , but I think there is a lot of bollocks being spouted at the moment.
What is happening is nothing new, he keeps making a pigs ear out of it, and getting out of gaol in the second half of the season, and that is not going to happen this year.
He does not learn from his mistakes, he is stubborn , does not know how to manage players or people, and does not know what his best team is or should be, four basics for a manager at any level. If it were one or two of those four it would be bad enough.
I knew that two years ago, Sheik knew that two years so did Oncey, who , for reasons known only to himself keeps giving him another chance, there are many people who know it.
I liked Rafa, I think he is a decent bloke with his heart in the right place, I am not having a go for the sake of it, I want him to succeed as much as anyone, but he is getting it wrong.
Rafa should get on his knees and pray to God that the Yanks are in place as the mutual loathing for them has diverted the attention away from him.
He will be gone at the end of the season , but it's all going to be a bit late by then.
regards

[/quote]
No need to apologies albeit I think you're mostly dead wrong.

Rafa is stubborn that's indisputable, but it's obvious he knows his best team however. He stopped the vivid rotation a long time ago and would play more or less the same XI week in week out if/when available.

And he does learn something that's for sure, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to get the team to perform so splendidly as it did last Season, taking us to a new level of performance almost, would he?

And with regards to your last point, well, according to Torres, Gerrard et all he REALLY does now how to manage players. Maybe there's someone who isn't satisfied with his methods, disagrees even, but at the end of the day the players are constantly backing him up in the medias. It's a bit of myth really all this talk about Rafa not beeing able to manage players and it seems mostly based on a few posters assumptions rather than facts.
And untill I've seen Torres, Carra or Gerrard or someone else important from the squad actually claiming that Rafa can't motivate them, manage them, whatever, I'd stand by him.
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=38336.msg1029636#msg1029636 date=1262960418]

Sorry , but I think there is a lot of bollocks being spouted at the moment.
What is happening is nothing new, he keeps making a pigs ear out of it, and getting out of gaol in the second half of the season, and that is not going to happen this year.
He does not learn from his mistakes, he is stubborn , does not know how to manage players or people, and does not know what his best team is or should be, four basics for a manager at any level. If it were one or two of those four it would be bad enough.
I knew that two years ago, Sheik knew that two years so did Oncey, who , for reasons known only to himself keeps giving him another chance, there are many people who know it.
I liked Rafa, I think he is a decent bloke with his heart in the right place, I am not having a go for the sake of it, I want him to succeed as much as anyone, but he is getting it wrong.
Rafa should get on his knees and pray to God that the Yanks are in place as the mutual loathing for them has diverted the attention away from him.
He will be gone at the end of the season , but it's all going to be a bit late by then.
regards

[/quote]I just hate being negative. I've known but not wanted to. I still don't want to.
But yeah he's a lucky chancer and can fuck off. The disaster that is this campaign leaves no room for ambiguity. Rafa will never win us the league and he needs to be given the chop.
 
Del's first post and Vlad's post are excellent.

To be honest, I first wanted rid of Rafa more than two years ago but like Del, last season I was happy to think that I was being proven wrong.

This season....
 
I just hate being positive. I've tried to be unreasonable and I still want to.

Winning the European Cup, the FA Cup, getting a record points haul in the Premiership, signing Torres, Mascherano etc doesn't seem to be miraculously lucky at least in probability terms.

It seems premature to dismiss him during this half campaign without a replacement. Rafa will never win us the League with all those players injured, and the beach balls and the dimishing transfer kitty etc etc. It's a failing in him not to be able to consistently overachieve, I know.

It hurts me to say, but he should be able to shop, rather than given the chop but then I know thats naive and optimistic *sigh*

Still there's always the second half of the season.
 
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=38336.msg1029712#msg1029712 date=1262967651]
I just hate being positive. I've tried to be unreasonable and I still want to.

Winning the European Cup, the FA Cup, getting a record points haul in the Premiership, signing Torres, Mascherano etc doesn't seem to be miraculously lucky at least in probability terms.

It seems premature to dismiss him during this half campaign without a replacement. Rafa will never win us the League with all those players injured, and the beach balls and the dimishing transfer kitty etc etc. It's a failing in him not to be able to consistently overachieve, I know.

It hurts me to say, but he should be able to shop, rather than given the chop but then I know thats naive and optimistic *sigh*

Still there's always the second half of the season.
[/quote]

That could easily be Rafa's catchphrase.
 
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38336.msg1029718#msg1029718 date=1262968087]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=38336.msg1029712#msg1029712 date=1262967651]
I just hate being positive. I've tried to be unreasonable and I still want to.

Winning the European Cup, the FA Cup, getting a record points haul in the Premiership, signing Torres, Mascherano etc doesn't seem to be miraculously lucky at least in probability terms.

It seems premature to dismiss him during this half campaign without a replacement. Rafa will never win us the League with all those players injured, and the beach balls and the dimishing transfer kitty etc etc. It's a failing in him not to be able to consistently overachieve, I know.

It hurts me to say, but he should be able to shop, rather than given the chop but then I know thats naive and optimistic *sigh*

Still there's always the second half of the season.
[/quote]

That could easily be Rafa's catchphrase.
[/quote]

It's a pothibility, or it could be 'show me the money'.
 
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=38336.msg1029722#msg1029722 date=1262968342]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38336.msg1029718#msg1029718 date=1262968087]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=38336.msg1029712#msg1029712 date=1262967651]
I just hate being positive. I've tried to be unreasonable and I still want to.

Winning the European Cup, the FA Cup, getting a record points haul in the Premiership, signing Torres, Mascherano etc doesn't seem to be miraculously lucky at least in probability terms.

It seems premature to dismiss him during this half campaign without a replacement. Rafa will never win us the League with all those players injured, and the beach balls and the dimishing transfer kitty etc etc. It's a failing in him not to be able to consistently overachieve, I know.

It hurts me to say, but he should be able to shop, rather than given the chop but then I know thats naive and optimistic *sigh*

Still there's always the second half of the season.
[/quote]

That could easily be Rafa's catchphrase.
[/quote]

It's a pothibility, or it could be 'show me the money'.
[/quote]
Are you talking about the £60M splashed in Keane, Johnson, Dossena and Aquilani?
 
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